Getting opinions on RotaryFlux and my responses

[Pyure]

Is it really too much to ask that my mod not be more often used and known as something unrecognizable, especially given how severely broken this version is?

I agree that this version is on the extreme edge of pretty dumb (I certainly wouldn't touch it). I'll also set aside "broken" as an opinion since I essentially share that opinion.

I think you seriously need to have more faith in your mods and that your own vision will be more popular. I *seriously* don't think that this extreme version would be anywhere near as popular as your own.

The issue is drawing the line between some clearly dumb mods and fringe-intelligent mods. Its hard to separate who should and shouldn't be allowed to make modifications, and if someone makes something that's legitimately brilliant* and awesome and popular, isn't that something the community should be allowed to enjoy?

* jk: like, say, implementing every single suggestion I've ever made.

 

[Reika]

I agree that this version is on the extreme edge of pretty dumb (I certainly wouldn't touch it). I'll also set aside "broken" as an opinion since I essentially share that opinion.

I think you seriously need to have more faith in your mods and that your own vision will be more popular. I *seriously* don't think that this extreme version would be anywhere near as popular as your own.

Again, I have repeatedly been told by people, including the administrator of the FTB third-party pack system, as well as people who normally are supporters, like TomeWyrm, that this is not even close to true, that the RF version will be more popular and that only a handful of people like "real RC". They founded much of their entire argument that "(I) would do well to embrace it" on that fact.

The issue is drawing the line between some clearly dumb mods and fringe-intelligent mods. Its

With something like this, a case-by-case evaluation is usually better, and this example fails miserably.

 

[GreenZombie]

While I think the original reddit post smells heavily of troll, it's safe to say this thread has evolved beyond this specific instance into a discussion around creator's rights and the entitlement culture of consumers, which I feel has some value every now and again.

You mean, the entitlement culture of creators.

 

[GreenZombie]

Again, I have repeatedly been told by people, including the administrator of the FTB third-party pack system, as well as people who normally are supporters, like TomeWyrm, that this is not even close to true, that the RF version will be more popular and that only a handful of people like "real RC".

If that is the case, then you would do well to simply stop modding as you are clearly not meeting the wants of the bulk of the people using your mod.

That said, like @Pyure, I believe you need to have more trust in your mod, and your vision for the mod. The best mods - in my mind - are the ones where the authors make what they think is cool. (The day @Azanor starts implementing the more common feature requests is the day I loose interest in Thaumcraft.)

Given the popular support your poll is garnering, and the supporting opinions from several community members that have surprised me frankly, I think a very large potion of the MC player base actually does buy into your vision.

I actually buy into your vision. And I do not think that any of the major FTB packs will pick this other mod up. And, as regards private packs, I've played AgS, ME4 and CL and been so impressed their re-imaginings generally that I totally would be interested in a HQM pack using RoC in a way that is not traditional hard-mode.

 

[Pyure]

Again, I have repeatedly been told by people, including the administrator of the FTB third-party pack system, as well as people who normally are supporters, like TomeWyrm, that this is not even close to true, that the RF version will be more popular and that only a handful of people like "real RC". They founded much of their entire argument that "(I) would do well to embrace it" on that fact.

Who cares. You're smarter than all these people. Use your brain.

An RF version *could* be more popular. This one won't. And if it was, that's a viable example of natural selection. The nice thing is that you don't cater to the whole community as your market: your mod will still stand as a niche challenge mod.

Of course you're still stuck with the issue of wanting your mod to take precedence in popular usage, and for that I recommend having several beers and maybe a meaningful conversation with your inner soul on the definition, purpose and merits of a strong self-image.

Addendum: RF Version. As a mod based on 2-dimension power, how would this even work? It seriously looks like a case of something that people think they want, but once they realize there's no more need for half of the blocks in the mod they'd lose interest quickly. RoC on RF is just TE with (some) different machines and graphics.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

So [nearly] every mod uses Rf, therefore Rotarycraft should use it?

Care to remind us why an artist should compromise his/her unique design vision? Why should someone conform all their creations to the work of others to maintain a unified appearance?​

 

[RedBoss]

KingLemming never intended for RF to become a universal energy format. But it happened. If you release something into the wild, unplanned things happen Reika. Just stop releasing your mods. That'll ensure nothing happens to your mods.

 

[Reika]

Given the popular support your poll is garnering, and the supporting opinions from several community members that have surprised me frankly, I think a very large potion of the MC player base actually does buy into your vision.

Again, it has been said repeatedly that the people here are not representative of the people of the general community; SynfulChaot said so in the very first page of this thread.

Addendum: RF Version. As a mod based on 2-dimension power, how would this even work? It seriously looks like a case of something that people think they want, but once they realize there's no more need for half of the blocks in the mod they'd lose interest quickly. RoC on RF is just TE with (some) different machines and graphics.

It is rather more powerful than most RF mods, making it rather desirable to many players. On the whole, however, yes, it is something that is not as good as it seems because of that, but most people are utterly unaware of this.

Here is the thing: Had it just been about getting some nice things with RF, he or anyone else could have made an RF-based mod that does them. However, instead, wendian chose to redesign RotaryCraft out from under me.

Remember this?

 

[Hyperme]

Wow this got out of hand. I like the parts where people pretend that RotaryFlux isn't just hacking into RotaryCraft. On that point alone Reika can justify undoing it's changes since who knows what else it could be doing or breaking.

I also like the part where we pretend RotaryFlux has merit. If it were an actual addon that, you know, added to the experience, I'd be on the 'oh no Reika what' side. Except RotaryFlux adds nothing. It is entirely subtractive. RotaryCraft is designed around it's power system. Hell, the RotaryCraft power system is RotaryCraft. It's why RoC is its own mod and not just 'gears for TE'. In a modding community that thinks grinding and random chance is difficulty*, RoC (and AE2 (minus 'hunt the presses') I guess) provide actual challenge. And then people are like 'yeah removing that is good'. Yeesh. Remove permadeath from Spelunky too while you're at it, I guess.

Also there's some nonsense about not making things if you don't want them at risk, so I guess we pack up civilization and die then?

*Thaumcraft somehow combines both these things into it's infusion mechanics. Grind for the random number++ as to not lose your items. People still call it good.**
**No, Kingdom of Loathing has opportunity cost when increasing drops. And ways to force drops. And generally competently designed luck manipluation.

 

[CaptainQux]

Ok seriously, I'm so tired of hearing things along the lines of "If you aren't doing what the players want, just stop modding." The unbelievable amount of entitlement makes my blood boil. Modders make things that THEY want, and players happen to benefit from the fact that some modders release their work to the public.

@Reika has made a phenomenal mod, and he had every right to do whatever he d**n well pleases with it, including preventing lazy people from circumventing the entire mod. Reika, you do you buddy. Been a huge fan of your work since the first time I saw Rotary Craft. Keep up the fight and write your code the way YOU want it.

I'd write more, but I have to get back to work where I write code and people don't crucify me for it.

 

[Bagman817]

@Reika you should have highlighted the TLDR

You work for us. Make the mod the way we want to or we just won't use it. Simple as that

Perfect example of the entitlement mindset. Also, laughable paper tiger. You won't use it? Works for me

 

[GreenZombie]

Ok seriously, I'm so tired of hearing things along the lines of "If you aren't doing what the players want, just stop modding." The unbelievable amount of entitlement makes my blood boil. Modders make things that THEY want, and players happen to benefit from the fact that some modders release their work to the public

It is quite the inverse of entitlement there. What we are saying to @Reika is, if absolute control over his mod is important to him to justify him continuing to make it, then he should re-evaluate why he is modding, and perhaps stop.

I bloody hope he doesn't stop. I havn't played with RoC in a while but it is an excellent mod that plays well to my sense of what makes a mod good. And I certainly, if he chooses to continue doing so, will appreciate it.

That said. If a good mod came out that allowed me to power RoC machines with RF, I might just try it, completely regardless of @Reikas concern that my gameplay experience will be compromised. From what I have read, RFFlux is not that good mod.

Pretend RoC is a painting that an artist has painted and is giving away. I take a painting from the artist and take it home. Now, the artist might expect me to hang it up and display it with proper lighting. But I decide instead to cut it into ribbons with scissors and turn it into a toy for my cats. That's my choice, and that possibility opened up the moment the artist parted with the painting. If the artist does not approve of this possibility, they should not sell, or give, their painting away.

 

[Pyure]

Again, it has been said repeatedly that the people here are not representative of the people of the general community; SynfulChaot said so in the very first page of this thread.


It is rather more powerful than most RF mods, making it rather desirable to many players. On the whole, however, yes, it is something that is not as good as it seems because of that, but most people are utterly unaware of this.

Here is the thing: Had it just been about getting some nice things with RF, he or anyone else could have made an RF-based mod that does them. However, instead, wendian chose to redesign RotaryCraft out from under me.

Remember this?

I do remember it, it was funny. But you actually took it seriously; I didn't. If he wants to make gear shafts conduct "electricity" (????), whatever, more power to him and his insane vision.

There's a lot of absurdities and several kernels of truth in that individual's rant, but one thing I notice instantly is his use of the word "community". MC players aren't a collective hive mind. There's as many types of players as there are accounts, and to make a claim on behalf of the conglomerate is silly.

A kernel of truth is that yes, some people want all the power of RoC but without the science. And in a modding world, if we want a thing, we'll do what we can do make it happen. But what the kids do in their sandbox doesn't really affect me in mine. If they want to poop in their sand and call it a castle, let em.

 

[Kotaro]

You know how I know a conversation is going too far? It's when we start debating whether or not someone should quit modding.

 

[Pyure]

*Snipped quote*
@psp can you clarify your thoughts here? Subservient to whom? Are you implying that chris becke knows this other modder and accords him some sort of deference?

His analogy was reasonably apt: If I buy art, I can mangle it to my heart's content. If I freely receive art, the same thing applies. It gets weird when we start to discuss software development and EULAs so "reasonably apt" is about as far as I'll take it.

You make a serious error here: he didn't make it for himself. He made it for himself and released his vision to the public, with all the benefits and drawbacks of that decision.

 

[Bagman817]

You know how I know a conversation is going too far? It's when we start debating whether or not someone should quit modding.

Don't dignify that as a 'debate'. It's just people stomping their feet and shouting that modders should be slaves to the community.

 

[KingTriaxx]

Ultimately there are two effective options: Option one is to remove any and all support for Rotarycraft used in conjunction with this mod. Any pack, any one individually installing it. Add this mod, you're on your own completely. This is the better option.

The other option is to stop completely giving permission for packs to include Rotarycraft.

 

[SynfulChaot]

One thing I'd like to point out.

It seems to me that nearly everyone here that is defending 'RotaryFlux', or whatever it's called, is doing so simply because they believe the mod has the right to exist. Nothing more. Practically noone here is defending the mod on what it does or even on it being a decent mod. In fact pretty much everyone is in agreeance that it's a pretty bad mod.

Do I see people here saying that modders should be slaves to the community? No. Certain people are dragging that stuff in from MCF and other locations. Modders should be cognizant of the community, though, and respect the rights of players and other modders to play the game they want to. Does that mean they need to sacrifice their personal vision for their mod or play to the whims of others? No. Not in the slightest. It means they should know where the limits of their powers go, aka the extent of their own mod and no further.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Also guys [and gals?]- can we PLEASE cut out the ad hominem attacks? Be nice and all that jazz.

His analogy was reasonably apt: If I buy art, I can mangle it to my heart's content. If I freely receive art, the same thing applies. It gets weird when we start to discuss software development and EULAs so "reasonably apt" is about as far as I'll take it.

Its a reasonably apt analogy for personal use. You can deface paintings/copies you own until your hearts content. Heck- Reika's own rules give you free reign in your own SSP environment.
However this goes far beyond personal use given the net result is intended to be distributed.

To continue your analogy this is akin to defacing a piece and putting it on display in a museum.
(Though this really is a poor analogy in general; while they are both artforms a mod and a physical painting really aren't comparable in this sense)​

 

[trajing]

DISCLAIMER: All my posts in this thread are my own opinions and do not reflect of those of any team I am part of (adding this because it's starting to get a bit drama-filled)