Anything that makes minecraft modding easier is a big thumbs up.
You (and the Nova team) should be congratulated for your efforts, not screamed at.
Forge and Nova
- Thread starter Strikingwolf
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You (and the Nova team) should be congratulated for your efforts, not screamed at.
Damn straight. NOVA guys, you're helping evolve the modded Minecraft community. That alone is reason to applaud your work.
Don't be hard on yourself, you never did anything wrong, and that's the important thing to remember. You don't owe anyone an apology or have any reason to be sorry for the work you and the NOVA team did. Even if NOVA were up for release right now, you still wouldn't. Forge, Bukkit, Sponge, mods, and other things tap into Minecraft and modify it to their hearts' content, so there's literally no reason why you can't do the same to Forge. If people don't like what your software does, or they have some kind of conflict with mods as a result, all they have to do is not use it.
You got resolution to your personal conflict, and that's still a good thing. In that respect, at least, "it's over."
Couldn't agree with you more. It was an issue that had been discussed and turned down. So even if Asie had gone whole hog and forked Forge just to make this change for developing his API, then that still would have been his right, without even any question of etiquette in my mind.
It was like when I released that patched FML class file to fix the Java 8 bug. Lex could have approached me, said he made a coremod version which would work more universally, and that it would be better if I recommended that one instead of my own. I would have happily done so, even removed my own. Or hell, he could have even just posted his patch in the MCF thread for people to get. Instead, he messaged me to tell me to never do JAR modifications again, that he was tired of hearing about my patch, and to distribute his mod for him. He even accused me of trying to push my patch on people, implying there was some agenda. My agenda was to play Minecraft, so I put a patch together in a matter of minutes with JBE rather than going to the trouble to make a mod, and posted it in case someone else might get use out of it. I even including details of what I did and how to recreate it, to meet any open-source requirements.
It goes back to what I've said before. Lex has no say in what people do with Minecraft or Forge. It's not his job, and it's not his place. If he ever releases any kind of Forge-protecting DRM, I'll just create another patch to fix Forge, and upload it for whoever wants it, because there's nothing that says I can't.
I've said it and I've said it for far too long: We need a stable modding version. Any changes Mojang introduces that we like can just be re-added through a mod.
But now that I hear about Nova, I'm intrigued. If I understand coorectly, it means that theoretically, we could make a core mod that would replace 1.8's rendering system with the old one and never have to worry about an incompatibility...
I like it
But now that I hear about Nova, I'm intrigued. If I understand coorectly, it means that theoretically, we could make a core mod that would replace 1.8's rendering system with the old one and never have to worry about an incompatibility...
I like it
Honestly Lex shouldn't be lead on forge
One of the qualities needed to lead an open source project is people skills, he is a self-admitted [redacted] and knows he can't work with people and prefers to silence them.
I had a bit of a run-in with him a while ago about adding the ID management into forge itself rather than let every mod use its own configs. I didn't explain myself properly and he misunderstood me but I still recall him being rather unfriendly about the ordeal. I'm very certain that another modder would have heard me out and we wouldn't have had to deal with ID conflicts earlier than 1.7.
One of the qualities needed to lead an open source project is people skills, he is a self-admitted [redacted] and knows he can't work with people and prefers to silence them.
I had a bit of a run-in with him a while ago about adding the ID management into forge itself rather than let every mod use its own configs. I didn't explain myself properly and he misunderstood me but I still recall him being rather unfriendly about the ordeal. I'm very certain that another modder would have heard me out and we wouldn't have had to deal with ID conflicts earlier than 1.7.
Just my personal opinion:
Making peace with people should _never_ be a bad thing. If something requires drama and fighting to get done, it is not on a good foundation. I fail to see why drama and fighting is required for starting a new project.
If/when a lot of people are frustrated at the way Forge is currently being run, wouldn't it be enough for capable people to just work together in peace and help eachother to build a new foundation for the modders, that is being run more community oriented.
Like someone just said recently, Forge was supposed to be the layer between Minecraft and mods, that allows mods to work together, and that gathers the necessary hooks together in one place. If new useful hooks are not being added (sometimes for personal issues with the author, without any valid technical reasons) and everyone and their grandmother needs to resort to using coremods, then Forge is not fulfilling its task as a proper foundation for modding.
For there to be a better alternative, in my opinion, all that is really needed is for there to be one such project that is actively developed and maintained, and that is properly implemented by talented people. If it also was backwards compatible with Forge at least in the beginning, then it would easily gain a userbase if some mod packs would start using it, or if popular mods would require that instead of Forge (as long as all other mods would also run on top of it).
But what do I know anyway, I'm just a noob modder. I just wish the community could work together, instead of all this constant drama and fighting. Be it using and contributing to Forge, or if need be, a new platform. Supposedly this is a hobby for most, I would imagine it is supposed to be fun and not constant fighting.
Making peace with people should _never_ be a bad thing. If something requires drama and fighting to get done, it is not on a good foundation. I fail to see why drama and fighting is required for starting a new project.
If/when a lot of people are frustrated at the way Forge is currently being run, wouldn't it be enough for capable people to just work together in peace and help eachother to build a new foundation for the modders, that is being run more community oriented.
Like someone just said recently, Forge was supposed to be the layer between Minecraft and mods, that allows mods to work together, and that gathers the necessary hooks together in one place. If new useful hooks are not being added (sometimes for personal issues with the author, without any valid technical reasons) and everyone and their grandmother needs to resort to using coremods, then Forge is not fulfilling its task as a proper foundation for modding.
For there to be a better alternative, in my opinion, all that is really needed is for there to be one such project that is actively developed and maintained, and that is properly implemented by talented people. If it also was backwards compatible with Forge at least in the beginning, then it would easily gain a userbase if some mod packs would start using it, or if popular mods would require that instead of Forge (as long as all other mods would also run on top of it).
But what do I know anyway, I'm just a noob modder. I just wish the community could work together, instead of all this constant drama and fighting. Be it using and contributing to Forge, or if need be, a new platform. Supposedly this is a hobby for most, I would imagine it is supposed to be fun and not constant fighting.
In an ideal world, that would be the way things work. Don't like what Person X is doing to Project A and its reputation? Go do your own thing and leave Person X to do their own thing, may the best project win and all that. Alas, people get their egos invested in their projects, they start to see their projects as part of themselves, or at least as part of their lives. When said egos are fragile, they see people doing something similar and take it personally as an insult, like the people behind the other project are saying that they aren't good enough. That's what's happening with Lex, from what I'm seeing. He's invested so much into Forge that people doing something even remotely similar are seen as directly insulting him by implying that his work just isn't cutting it. He's taking things personally and, in doing so, he's harming the reputation of his project. It doesn't help that he likely also sees himself as the Big Guy, the one in charge of the whole operation and that particular...feeling, that proprietary sense of command, tends to cause people to react rather badly when they think someone is questioning their decisions.
In a way, I can understand where Lex is coming from. He's put a lot of work into Forge, no two ways about it, the commit logs prove it. With that much work put into it, I'd feel like it was my son, too. The problem is, he doesn't seem to be able to step back and regain proper perspective: this is a project, this is code. Yes, you've put a lot of work into it and it may well be a labour of love, but at the end of the day, this isn't anything over which one should get all worked up.
Him getting all worked up is not only because he put in a lot of work, it's also because he has to deal with a lot of stuff besides the code. This drama is proof...
I was banned from his twitter a couple of weeks ago, a couple emails back and forth, we settled things and all is good again. I'm not a Lex fanboy and never was, but this gave me a little insight of what is going on.
The guy has to handle a shit ton of attention and pressure and he doesn't seem to enjoy it to say the least.
As others have already mentioned, there needs to be a proper team to handle this kind of project. I'm pretty sure if Lex wouldn't have to handle all the things he would be in a way better mood and easier to work with! Too bad this seems to be a vicious cycle since he doesn't trust a lot of people.
The worst part about it is that we keep losing good people over this. On that note I'd like to add, that I personally don't think that running from problems is a good idea... But to each it's own.
I never thought a single person would be able to hold a project as large as this all on their own. Well he did have cpw by his side on FML.
One thing to note about Lex, last I heard he has no job other then maintaining forge and his only revenue is from donations/possible ad money. Which may explain a little bit of why he is so defensive about things that he perceives as threats to forge, since his job is on the line basically.
I would be more conservative and say 11 million clicks a year.
Based on an estimated payout rate of $5/1000 clicks, if there really were 11 million clicks a day, Lex would be earning $50k a day. He'd be as rich as Bill Gates! (might be a bit of an exaggeration).
But still, the fact that Lex depends on Forge for his livelihood is troubling towards having a free and open community platform. Bringing back the Linus Torvalds comparisons, Linus is actually sponsored by the Linux Foundation, who control Linux, however Lex IS the entity controlling Forge. So long as he depends on it for an income, he has to both maintain Forge in a way that it would not damage his livelihood, as well as put up with all the shit he gets as lead of Forge.
If someone created a nonprofit including entities with large stakes in MC Modding (modders, maybe MS?) to administer Forge, and said nonprofit hired Lex as the maintainer, then his behaviour would be excusable to a certain degree, because he wouldn't be representative of Forge, just a cog in the wheel. But! This is not the case. One might say that the constant sword of Damocles hanging over Lex has caused him to develop a sense of paranoia that someone, someday, may come to take over Forge and cause him to lose his income source, which is why he probably exerts so much control over the Forge project as a whole, and his contribution policy.
EDIT: I strongly encourage everyone to read this https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/ManagementStyle
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From what I've seen about him, that is my inference.
I can only buy Minecraft PC once (for myself), but I can click on a Forge adfly link many more times. 11 million is not an unreasonable number, but 11 million a day is an unreasonable number.
There are, but that number has increased to over 18 million copies of the PC version of Minecraft that have been sold.
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Umm woah... Like a year ago on their site there was only 5 million. But as I said a year ago
FTFY, correct what actually needs to be corrected not just for the sake of "one upping".
I just get irritated whenever someone says something along the lines of "there's not x of something, there's x + y of it". It's basic logic you learn for programming, (x + y) is a set that still includes (x).