Discussion on AE2 Stuff

[Madriker]

Hello everyone,

I am creating this thread after a short exchange between me and Watchful11 about AE2 Stuff not being included in the Infinity modpack. Essentially, he expressed this point of view:

In my personal opinion, it unbalances a lot of AE by making autocrafting too easy. AE has specific, well designed crafting gates that are intended to be difficult to automate. AE2 stuff completely bypasses them.

Since I am interested in his opinion and I asked him to elaborate, he suggested I make a public thread, open to everyone's contribution, on this forum. And so I have done.

So, the floor's yours, Watchful11

 

[Watchful11]

When AE2 was released and added channels, Algorithm knew a lot of people would dislike them. It seemed a massive step back from large networks where you could just hook everything up. Whether it is actually "better" or "worse" is debatable, but Algorithm wanted people to give the new system a try before reverting. So he added two challenges designed to help you learn how to properly use channels.

The first, inscribers, have two parts. You can only insert into specific slots from specific sides. This means, in an AE only system, you need four devices for each inscriber, which quickly overwhelms the 8 channel limit. Using subnetworks, it is trivial to pass items down and up recursive nets. Additionally, the one item limit teaches you to use storage busses and interfaces rather than importing and exporting all the time.

Second, crystal growing, teaches you to work with a system outside of AE, namely the open water where the crystals are sitting. If you want to conserve power and not have the growth accelerators on all the time, you need a way to tell when crystals are being crafted. There are a number of solutions to this, but the AE only ones teach you a lot about autocrafting and channels.

If you successfully automate both of the above, channels make a lot more sense. If they are the kind of challenge you enjoy, you would even like them by that point, but if they aren't, then you can safely use the config to revert to the no channel behavior.

AE2 Stuff completely removes both of the challenges, making processors and crystals far easier to automate. While it is arguably slightly less performance intensive, and it does greatly simplify the setup of the autocrafting, it removes a critical learning experience for AE novices and does little to change the gameplay of a more knowledgeable AE player.

Learning challenges aside, the three machines AE2 Stuff adds nearly match my definition of overpowered. "Something that solely makes another mechanic obsolete" The crystal growth chamber adds no useful features that can not be created with other setups, is not an upgrade, requiring a more normal setup before it can be achieved and, perhaps most importantly, combines a multiblock into a single device. Same with the advanced inscriber, though to a lesser degree.

As a note, the above is my opinion on the mod and has no relation to it being in Infinity.

 

[DriftinFool]

But in order to get to where you can make the AE2 Stuff machines, you still have to go through the gates that AE2 puts in front of you. I still have to drop crap in water to make crystals so get started. I will still probably start with a plain inscriber to get started. I still have to make all the AE2 components that I would use because they are required to craft the AE2Stuff blocks. Pretty much everyone uses pipes or conduits to automate the standard AE2 machines anyway(because who plays with just AE2?) I don't mind the speed of the regular inscribers. I had close to 100 channels in use before I bothered upgrading them and if I wasn't relocating the system, I wouldn't have even bothered. I had a working auto crystal crafting before I upgraded to the growth chamber to save space. While I love the complexities added by channels, and finding meteors is only a slight nuisance, dropping crystals in water to make them grow without some kind of machine to replace it wasn't a good idea. It was so annoying having my magnet pull them out of the water when I was working in my base. It's fine for the 1st few, but when you need 100's, it makes no sense.

 

[GreenZombie]

When AE2 was released and added channels, Algorithm knew a lot of people would dislike them. It seemed a massive step back from large networks where you could just hook everything up. Whether it is actually "better" or "worse" is debatable, but Algorithm wanted people to give the new system a try before reverting. So he added two challenges designed to help you learn how to properly use channels.

The first, inscribers, have two parts. You can only insert into specific slots from specific sides. This means, in an AE only system, you need four devices for each inscriber, which quickly overwhelms the 8 channel limit. Using subnetworks, it is trivial to pass items down and up recursive nets. Additionally, the one item limit teaches you to use storage busses and interfaces rather than importing and exporting all the time.

Second, crystal growing, teaches you to work with a system outside of AE, namely the open water where the crystals are sitting. If you want to conserve power and not have the growth accelerators on all the time, you need a way to tell when crystals are being crafted. There are a number of solutions to this, but the AE only ones teach you a lot about autocrafting and channels.

If you successfully automate both of the above, channels make a lot more sense. If they are the kind of challenge you enjoy, you would even like them by that point, but if they aren't, then you can safely use the config to revert to the no channel behavior.

AE2 Stuff completely removes both of the challenges, making processors and crystals far easier to automate. While it is arguably slightly less performance intensive, and it does greatly simplify the setup of the autocrafting, it removes a critical learning experience for AE novices and does little to change the gameplay of a more knowledgeable AE player.

Learning challenges aside, the three machines AE2 Stuff adds nearly match my definition of overpowered. "Something that solely makes another mechanic obsolete" The crystal growth chamber adds no useful features that can not be created with other setups, is not an upgrade, requiring a more normal setup before it can be achieved and, perhaps most importantly, combines a multiblock into a single device. Same with the advanced inscriber, though to a lesser degree.

As a note, the above is my opinion on the mod and has no relation to it being in Infinity.

1. Channels. Are probably a big part of the reason AE2 is considered one of the major sources of lag on servers. Every abstract thing you force players to build adds a real world CPU cost to getting items into and out of an AE2 system at the correct places. You can't tell me that having dozens of tiny AE subnets importing and exporting to each other constantly is CPU free.

2. The grinder. (Remember this is in the context of AE only) - impossible to automate. wtf?

3. Inscribers are uncharacteristically hard to automate in a mod that is all about automation. But whatever - there are several ways to do it with AE only.

4. Crystal growth? These are essentially un-automate able with vanilla AE. Oh, theres a complicated contraption that can be built with flowing water and level emitters, but its such a Rube Goldberg machine its not at all obvious to the bulk of users.

If you can't give me an annihilation plane with a filter, give me AE stuff any day. And turn off that channel limit on servers so complex AE systems stop killing the tps.

 

[Cptqrk]

*snip*, dropping crystals in water to make them grow without some kind of machine to replace it wasn't a good idea. It was so annoying having my magnet pull them out of the water when I was working in my base. It's fine for the 1st few, but when you need 100's, it makes no sense.

Considering you are working with a modpack, that has Botania in it (because almost all of them do these days), you could make a Hopperhock (doesn't need mana to work) and give it a chest with frames on it. Set it to only pick up "framed" items (Pure/Fluix). This mechanic gives you three things you can set the flower to pick up, and still allow one open face of the chest (bottom) for your AE system to interact with.

 

[DoomSquirter]

Since AE2 came out, I was of two minds on the differences between ae1 and ae2. At first, I didn't understand channels and the idea of it drove me nuts and my initial reaction was that I hated it.

But... After I played with it for a bit, I realized the nuance that it put you more into thinking how to plan a system versus just blindly throwing everything on your network willy nilly. In addition, there were a lot of issues in 1.6.4 with ae1 and large networks, pieces dropping out because of chunk loading, various errors that were too intermittent to figure out, etc. These things drove me completely nuts back in 1.6.4.

What I see was algo not only creating a unique and clever way to get ppl to 'think' about their network, similar to the way a n/w engineer has to think about their real life networking (which is what I do IRL), he found a way to minimize most likely (assumption on my part) the problems that led to the issues that were abundantly unsolvable in 1.6.4 at the same time.

By the time I had realized this, I suddenly embraced ae2 and all of it's quirks and new ways of doing things and found myself firmly in the 'I prefer ae2 way more than ae1' camp.

It takes less than a couple minutes to google 'ae2 crystal automation' or 'ae2 inscriber automation' and find examples on how to setup in game ways to do all you need to automate both of those things. I mostly play on servers and have setup many many of these types of automation using ae2 itself, steves factory manager, botania, etc. I did like to cherry pick some things from diff mods to make better setups.

But... When ae2stf first came out, it took less than 2 minutes playing with it to realize that I loved this idea so much. I didn't feel it detracted from learning how to make the complex systems since that didn't apply to me. I had already made my contraptions a dozen times and tbh I was quite sick of doing so each and every time. What it does do, however, is make the setup/deployment of your ae2 network a lot less painful, and with a bunch of acceleration cards, speeds up the process 10 fold. It does this all at a cost of power, but that's a similar mantra that is used in other mods.

Now, when I see ae2 w/o ae2stf in a pack, I get big sads cause I know I'm going to be very dispassionate about my ae2 system because I have to resort back to caveman tools to setup a system I could have just used a single block to do it much more effectively.

 

[DriftinFool]

Considering you are working with a modpack, that has Botania in it (because almost all of them do these days), you could make a Hopperhock (doesn't need mana to work) and give it a chest with frames on it. Set it to only pick up "framed" items (Pure/Fluix). This mechanic gives you three things you can set the flower to pick up, and still allow one open face of the chest (bottom) for your AE system to interact with.

I just use Steve's factory manager. It's simple to setup. I used it long before AE2 stuff existed. My point is all this talk about gating us and then requiring a mechanic that isn't upgradable kinda sucks. I like the crystal growth chambers for one reason. It doesn't create entities. Once you have a pretty full world with power production, a giant AE network, automated everything, I don't need to add to the stress of my pc by creating 50-100 entities that each have their own timer running every time I need more crystals.

Don't get me wrong though, I love the complexity that channels added. It makes using P2P tunnels have a purpose. I had no idea how powerful they were until AE2 forced me to use them. I had no idea of the benefits of sub networks until AE2 forced me to use them. I would not change a thing about the mod, except for the crystal growing mechanic.

 

[artubi]

I started using AE2 Stuff mostly because of the Advanced Crystal Growth Acceleration Chamber. Before, my setup was:
-block of water surrounded by AE2 crystal growth accelerators (CGA)
--bellow it dispenser facing up
--above it EXU transfer node with filter and world upgrade
-4 ME level emitters with crafting cards in them, 1 for each one crystal
-vanilla comparator for detecting if dispenser contains items
-Project Red custom fabricated chip containing clock and OR gate (or AND can't remember)
-toggle bus to turn on / off the CGA
Comparator and level emitters were connected into PR chip, which was next to dispenser. So if I wanted to craft pure / fluix crystals, interface put all ingredients into dispenser, comparator detected items in it and started emitting redstone signal. Me level emitter gave redstone signal too. As long as both of the signals were on, it was firing ingredients. One signal cut off? Stopped shooting. Level emitters were connected to toggle bus to avoid wasting power on CGA if nothing was being crafted.

I liked it, but every time it activated or at least dispenser was shooting, my FPS fell down from 45~60 to ~7. With AE2 Stuff, all above is history and I can craft crystals without that much hassle.

 

[asb3pe]

At the risk of being slightly off-target with my post, I'd like to post this video (which isn't mine, nor is the design of the unit) because I think it's a wonderful example of how to automate AE2 in an artful form.
A few notes - first, if you're a player who is very "power-conscious" (waste not want not), then please do not watch, you will probably be aghast at all the ME Controllers that are pretty much solely decorative, truth be told.
Second, there's a very good suggestion in the video comments to switch the inscriber adjacent to the Tesseract with the Dense Energy Cell, to prevent any Silicon coming in thru the Tess accidently ending up in the Insriber.
Third, the Quantum Ring inside is not touching an ME Controller, so it only provides 7 channels on the other end. The solution is to find a way to get it to touch a Controller block somehow, which means a bit less elegance in the design.
I've built this in every modpack I've played since I first watched it. An absolute joy to both build and use. Enjoy.

 

[ratchet freak]

I just use Steve's factory manager. It's simple to setup. I used it long before AE2 stuff existed. My point is all this talk about gating us and then requiring a mechanic that isn't upgradable kinda sucks. I like the crystal growth chambers for one reason. It doesn't create tile entities. Once you have a pretty full world with power production, a giant AE network, automated everything, I don't need to add to the stress of my pc by creating 50-100 tile entities that each have their own timer running every time I need more crystals.

Don't get me wrong though, I love the complexity that channels added. It makes using P2P tunnels have a purpose. I had no idea how powerful they were until AE2 forced me to use them. I had no idea of the benefits of sub networks until AE2 forced me to use them. I would not change a thing about the mod, except for the crystal growing mechanic.

items aren't tile entities they are regular entities.

A growth chamber is a tile entity. A tile entity is any block that has more than 4 bits of state (aka just about every block that isn't a decorative one)

 

[Darkone84]

I have always use Steve's factory manager to automate my Crystal Growth Chamber it's easy to setup after you have done it a few times. The main reason that I had to use AE2 Stuff was because of the TPS/FPS. After playing in the same world for a while my FPS drops and I need to redo some of my setups to fix the TPS/FPS. I really don’t like using AE2 Stuff as it’s so easy to craft and cheap to run, I believe it also only uses power if it has work to do unlike the Crystal Growth Chamber. If the recipes were harder and it used more power I would be more inclined to use AE2 Stuff.

 

[Tommerbob]

For a long time I felt that AE2 was a step backwards from AE1, that Algorithm complicated a bunch of stuff just for the sake of complication. Now, that might be true, but after playing with it, I really like AE2.

...With one exception. The in-world crafting is stupid. I use AE2 Stuff solely for the Growth Chamber. Everything else it adds, I actually prefer vanilla AE2. But the Growth Chamber? Yeah, I like it.

 

[Tyrindor]

I add AE2Stuff to every pack I play if it doesn't have it. I need the Crystal Growth Chamber.

It should really be an optional mod.

 

[RavynousHunter]

I prefer AE2 Stuff's solutions since they're still gated behind the normal mechanics, so you've got to go thru them first to get the crap. While I can work with AE2's other...nuances, the in-world crafting really kills me. I only really see it as doing something because all the "cool kids" are doing it, too, but adds nothing to the actual experience itself. And don't get on to me about "realism." I've grown quartz before, and you can do it easily in a glass container. Seriously, could've added a crystal growth jar gated behind maybe pure fluix or something, and that would've been just fine. That AE2 itself doesn't add such a thing seems like a massive oversight, to me.

 

[snapcube]

When i used ae2 the 1st time, I had a lot of fun setting up the incribers with ender io conduits. And I had even more fun, fitting a design with auto power shutdown into a 3x3x3, using only me und steve's factory manager. And I'm totally in love with the channel system. Makes ae2 so much more interesting.

At the end, I feel a little bit like DoomSquirter: after having done so many different inscriber and crystal growh setups, it sometimes is nice having a shortcut. But I definitely wouldn't like to have ae2stuff in every pack. And I would never ever play on a server with channels disabled.

4. Crystal growth? These are essentially un-automate able with vanilla AE. Oh, theres a complicated contraption that can be built with flowing water and level emitters, but its such a Rube Goldberg machine its not at all obvious to the bulk of users.

I didn't know that this was supposed to be an issue. Here is a pure ae setup I did about half a year ago: http://imgur.com/a/eUGcx

Basically, in the last image, you can see a me interfaces with 4 crafting recipes, which are handled by my main network. The interface points to another me interface which receives the crafting ingredients. Those items are instantly dropped by the me formation pane on top of the puddle. The formation pane is configured to export crystal seeds, redstone, charged certus and ether quartz. It has a fuzzy card for the seeds, but in normal operation, this should not be needed, because each seed is only exported once. The receiving interface and the formation pane form a subnetwork.

On the bottom, there is another subnetwork, composed of a me chest, an annihilation pane and a me export bus. The chest is partitioned for fully grown seeds (= filter for annihilation pane). Finally, the export bus points right into our me interface of the main network and also is configured for the fully grown crystals. Works like a charm. I only was too lazy to implement a automatic power shutdown.

 

[BrickVoid]

I really don't understand why AlgorithmX2 didn't make the crystal growth process completely automatable, and without the need for all of the in-world crafting and waiting. All the current crystal growth process makes me do is throw 3-4 stacks worth of ingredients in to make the crystal I want, and I suddenly have crystals for days for a while, until I need more crystals, which means I throw in another 3-4 stacks, repeat as needed. I really don't care how the channel system was designed to work, or if I learn anything about it, to me AE2 is "connect this here, set up items to be sent over here, and items to be received here" with the appropriate blocks/items, and receive items from having set things up. The channel system to me is something "behind the scenes", if I really wanted to know how many channels are in use there are even cables in the mod specifically designed for such purposes.

I much prefer being able to simply plug in and get AE to work with what I want from it, Crystal Growth Chambers do make sense, but I don't necessarily agree with the way the mod addon author implemented them. I myself have found, through testing, that five, yes five, Crystal Growth Accelerators equals almost instant seed growth for any number of seeds I want to grow. With that, the only limitation on making seeds is filtering them into a chest or input buffer fast enough. I seriously think AlgorithmX2 needs to rework the whole crystal growth process, not to make them more difficult to craft or to teach people about AE2 specific blocks/items, but to make it more easily automatable, as this to me is what AE2 has always been and always will be.

Automation is one of AE2's strong points, and I completely fail to see why AlgorithmX2 wants to hide it behind complicated mod mechanics that the vast majority of users will either get someone else to help them with, or will never even realize, always building things the way they've been used to. If there's one thing people are good at, it's making boring and repetitive tasks automatable, which in turn dilutes the boring and repetitive aspects of said tasks to tolerable levels, and that's another thing AE2 was designed for.

Finally, a word on the AE2 autocrafting itself: Why is it all crafting recipes involving items have to be lumped into one single crafting place? Why can't I create specialized crafting storage that is specifically designed with multi-level crafting steps in mind? A lot of the more complicated mods, like IC2, have high level items like MSFU which require one or more lower tier items. I would have thought that there would be a logical way of separating the lower tier items from the higher tier items that will require mostly or all lower tier items to be crafted, from within AE2, but from looking at it, this does not appear to be the case. It would simplify a lot of multi-level items if I could assign them their own level area from within AE2. That would make more sense for autocrafting complicated items.

Cheers ...

BrickVoid

 

[ratchet freak]

One of the things missing from vanilla AE2 is a way to find out how many channels are free on a cable.

With that I mean how many devices can you hook up before you steal a channel from somewhere else/run out of channels.

Once you have a decently sprawling organically built base you are not going to keep track of how many channels you have free on the yellow line next tot he smelting area

 

[GreenZombie]

On the bottom, there is another subnetwork, composed of a me chest, an annihilation pane and a me export bus. The chest is partitioned for fully grown seeds (= filter for annihilation pane). Finally, the export bus points right into our me interface of the main network and also is configured for the fully grown crystals. Works like a charm. I only was too lazy to implement a automatic power shutdown.

That is bloody genius - the annihilation plane can't import anything that cannot be stored on the subnetwork.
Now If I can automate an automatic power off, I can finally have an acceptable "AE only" crystal growth solution.

At any rate, you are either very clever, or I am very stupid. Nice.

 

[BrickVoid]

One of the things missing from vanilla AE2 is a way to find out how many channels are free on a cable.

With that I mean how many devices can you hook up before you steal a channel from somewhere else/run out of channels.

Once you have a decently sprawling organically built base you are not going to keep track of how many channels you have free on the yellow line next tot he smelting area

You look at the number of channels in use, even WAILA tells you how many are in use out of the total. All you have to do is craft the ME Smart Cable that shows a visual representation of channels in use. There's a few types of cables, all you need to know is which one will show you what you're looking at visually, for the size of connection you want.

One AE2 device connection equals one channel, so figuring out how many channels you need isn't that difficult. There are even how-to's on the internet and videos that show you how to set up and manage channels.

Cheers ...

BrickVoid

 

[MrN1c3]

I love AE Stuff because of one reason: I play with Magnet Mode or a IG magnet (depend on the Mods in the Pack) and putting stuff in water is crap when you play with magnet mod or a magnet Item, only the Botania Magnet ring does not pick up the AE2 items but beside that AE2 Stuff gives me the option to always play with magnet and do not have to worry that I run beside my water puddle and accidentally pick up a crystal. I know I can't be the only one loving Magnets ;P