Criticism of players and mod devs

[Hoff]

So I stumbled across a couple videos recently from TED. While they are both about subjects not remotely close to that of minecraft I believe, if viewed with the proper perspective, they relay a powerful message to the two main groups of minecraft; players and mod devs. I'll start with the players as it is a far simpler matter while remaining to be an abundantly powerful message that most seem to have forgotten. I'll ask that you watch the videos to get the most from this but they are not necessarily required to watch.

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Spoiler: Players

This video is from Adam Savage and the very last line of it was: "...but really if we're all going to be honest with ourselves I have to admit that achieving the end of the exercise was never the point of the exercise in the first place; was it?".​

Words have not been so simply put to express a simple concept that, to many, has become some sort of idea far beyond their reach. Recently Staxed started a thread about filling a DSU with octople compressed cobblestone and he even did the calculations and if he were to use a million extruders it would still take well over 5000 years to achieve, but again, it was never the point in the first place, was it?​

We all too often in the massive amount of mods we have become grasped by the idea of some sort of end goal and some sort of point to reach. The old adage to stop and smell the roses was not created in vain. The real destination is the journey toward your goal. Never forget that.​

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Come to think of it that might be good for some mod devs to read too... Anyway; moving on.​

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Spoiler: Mod Devs

This video is from Dan Pink and offers an amazing insight into the business world because of the invaluable information offered about how humans work. Now mods may not be a business but they stand to profit, on a completely different level than a business, from this knowledge. Far too often are mods following the old business model standard described in the video, carrot and stick; reward and punishment. This may work amazingly well if your mod is designed to follow a specific pre-determined path and have a clear line of A->B->C->End. Most mods do not function this way. The problem is mods that do not function with that end goal in mind still follow the reward-punishment system. This is a major flaw. As Dan shows statistically in the video if any form of creativity is meant to be exuded by the person using the mod a reward or punishment will only hinder their ability to do so. Not only that, it hinders their ability to enjoy the mod and become immersed in it.​

This is something of a call to action with the likes of MineFactoryReloaded leading the way following the business model presented by Dan Pink in the video. If you wish for your players to thoroughly enjoy a mod that seeks for players to be creative and use the tools you give them in a creative manner you must move into the "21st century" of minecraft. Though as a warning this is not meant for all mods as many mods do have a set goal and a set path to move forward in. For these the narrowed thought process of reward and punishment is paramount, but that is the only situation it is.​

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Food for though for all. I hope you enjoyed the videos as much as I did and found them as enlightening as I did.​

E: Not sure why the spoilers doubled .-.​

 

[Eyamaz]

E: Not sure why the spoilers doubled .-.

Spoilers have been being stupid lately.

Great post, btw

 

[namiasdf]

Meh, what you're trying to quote is the attitude of the profession of engineering. The end goal is to create something that lasts forever, and to ensure that it would last forever requires a lot of in between effort in terms of upgrading/maintenance. Always thinking ahead is a good way to state the mentality that you are going for here as well. There is no end to the work of an engineer, something always needs redesigning, upgrading or fixing.

There are two types of gamers from my points of view:

(1) The type that plays games to play through the story/beat the game. i.e. There is an end goal/purpose to playing the game. We should be careful with the word "purpose". From my experience, these type of players justify the time spent as having the end goal as their "purpose". This is how they define what makes it worth it to them to play the game.

(2) The type that plays games to develop themselves as a gamer. i.e. Gamers who spend the time to master every aspect of the game. The most obvious example of this is professional gaming and the ever growing potential for players to continually increase their skills. I remember a few years ago, the expectation for Starcraft II players at MLG are what the general basics for any player are now. The game evolves and the players along with it.

With a sandbox game like Minecraft, it is very difficult to ascertain exactly why you are spending so much time playing it. Most people can justify their actions by playing on a multiplayer server. i.e. Having people to share their work with. Some people want to "beat" the game and aim for all the end game infinity loops. Things such as end tier bees, fusion or the MFR mining laser are such examples. For players like me, it is just an opportunity to build a system that would challenge and test my planning/project management/design/building skills. The improvement of the system's efficiency, output and its expansion can also be included in that process. This would put me into the type (2) category.

But it really comes down to who you are as a person. I am a highly competitive person, hence my attitudes towards gaming. Some people simply want to sit back and relax, enjoy the graphics and the story. I have never spent the time to understand any lore. I still ask questions about why shit is happening in WoW. I have never given any attention to those aspects of the game, having spent all my time in PvP developing my mechanics/timings/skills.

What I'm trying to say is that your ideas have a strong competitive nature to them and not everybody likes that. I could redirect you to my FTB imgur and you will see examples of projects that exceed the imaginations/capabilities of many of the other projects you see in this forum. I am not bragging though, this is simply how I play the game and the results are as such. Not everybody is willing to spend a month considering all the possible choices to a design, before even starting up the game again. It is also why you are partially wrong in your criticism, because you are defining the play style of a very well defined niche in the gaming world.

Among my friends, I think I am the only one who actually spent the time to understand all the mathematics behind the mechanics of any game we play. I am also the best player among us. I also spend close to 0 hours playing single player RPG games, where as they have beat countless games in that genre. I've only ever beaten two Final Fantasys', and those would be Tactics and Tactics Advanced. A much different genre that the mainstream FF scene.[DOUBLEPOST=1380427942][/DOUBLEPOST]I expect at least 3 likes.

 

[Hoff]

What I'm trying to say is that your ideas have a strong competitive nature to them and not everybody likes that. I could redirect you to my FTB imgur and you will see examples of projects that exceed the imaginations/capabilities of many of the other projects you see in this forum. I am not bragging though, this is simply how I play the game and the results are as such. Not everybody is willing to spend a month considering all the possible choices to a design, before even starting up the game again. It is also why you are partially wrong in your criticism, because you are defining the play style of a very well defined niche in the gaming world.

I'm not really seeing where the competitive bit comes from. In regards to the players criticism it is simply that you can very easily, in minecraft especially, make due haste toward a goal and achieve it very easily. While it is possible, and undoubtedly is for some people, this is rarely the real "goal of a goal." That is to say the reason you're doing something is likely not to achieve it but to attempt to achieve it and have something you can wholly devote yourself to. This has nothing to do with beating other people or even bettering yourself. It is doing for the sake of fulfilling a natural human need of being satisfied.

In terms of what was aimed at mod devs it does not seek to pit people against one another for sake of competition it is simply people cannot maintain a creative state of mind when their aim is focused via reward/punishment methods.

I'm sorry if I'm missing something but if you could better explain why you feel these ideals are competitive I would be eager to hear it.

 

[namiasdf]

"...but really if we're all going to be honest with ourselves I have to admit that achieving the end of the exercise was never the point of the exercise in the first place; was it?".

If you understand what he is trying to say with this quote, you will understand what I am saying. The latter half of my post was distinguishing between the two types of players and how it might relate to the attitudes that the individual player has towards gaming. Also, the points of his post was not about creating a goal and going for it, it's about the general attitude towards FTB and how the individual player see's the game.

Also, do not confuse competitiveness with attitudes that might come with having such competitive avenues. It is an opportunity for you to continually test yourself at your best. Whether it be for being the "best in the world" or to "win" is besides the point. Self-improvement can only come about pushing one's own limits. It's why Olympic records continue to be set every iteration, limits are being pushed and changed. Malicious feelings and the highly aggressive behaviours you may observe can be a result of the competition, but that is not what I am trying to depict here.

Some people want to relax when they play video games and that is what is fun for them. If they make small design errors, like having a one-block misalignment, that is fine. For players like me, rectifying that error is a must. That is what is fun for me, but you may see why other people may not enjoy FTB the way I do.

 

[Hoff]

"...but really if we're all going to be honest with ourselves I have to admit that achieving the end of the exercise was never the point of the exercise in the first place; was it?".

I think this is where our disagreement is.

When I heard this statement I hear that the journey of the exercise was the entire purpose in the first place. The end goal is nice to achieve and all but the real purpose of it all was getting there. Doing everything needed, through your own methods, to reach the end point.

I would like to hear your thoughts on its meaning though.

 

[namiasdf]

You're thinking too much into it.

It is not the result, but the process which is important. To some people the process isn't so important, especially when it's just a video game. It isn't that philosophical, though you could take it all the way down that road if you want.

This is the distinction I was trying to make here. There are those who see the entertainment value of a video game, as an adventure or even better, a story book. They aren't too concerned with how you get to the ending, as long as it concludes. There are those who don't find enjoyment in open-ended activities. Even RPGs with multiple ends are quite linear, in the face of sandbox games (Minecraft, Sims, etc.)

This is also why I'm saying your criticism, though is true, isn't very useful. It is based on who the person is. I have identified the main defining factor as being competition. I have a friend who will not for the life in him play PvP games unless he knows he has a very good chance at winning. He also refuses to take any advice I give him, if it would change the way he plays the game considerably, even if it would mean a large improvement at the cost of needing to practice it a bunch more.

To him the game is a game, a way to relax and to have fun. Fun for me is being able to participate in a highly competitive environment where I can put my skills to the test. To some, that might just mean more stress.

 

[Hoff]

Ahhhh I see where you're going with it, but at the same time I see where you're thinking of it too narrow. You may see PvP as a goal you wish to go after but isn't something that others might see or even acknowledge as a goal. While it's true they may see video games as something to be relaxing, they will have goals in it. Even if that goal is itself to relax, it is a goal. There is a journey to it and even then people lose track of the path to that goal. In the video Adam was making a replica of the two birds for no reason other than his own relaxation. It was merely his hobby and what he did to have fun. It still involved a journey and that journey was still more important than the actual result.

 

[namiasdf]

And thus:

This is why I have said what I've said. To some people, the process isn't that important, hence your criticism on a very large niche of player (relatively non-competitive) isn't very useful. I could never convince my friends to take things as seriously as I do. It is fun for me to be so competitive, where as I know it's overbearing for them. It is why I have separate games where I can be my own competitive self and then take things down one, two, maybe a million notches when I play with them.

The difference is that I spend 2-3 minutes before every game practicing my mouse precision. I maintain my APM so I retain a consistent game pace (200-300 APM). I have also spent a considerable amount of time testing things, reading forums, etc. That is just what I do, I am very comprehensive. And this is just with video games. I, myself don't find it exhausting, but maybe you can see why other people feel differently.

The point being, especially with a sandbox game, you can't really criticize anybody's choice on how they play the game. Hell, I know of some people who spend the time to get all the hidden-secret orbs in Halo, even though it does absolutely nothing aside from (in some cases) removing your HUD completely. I still barely know what the story is in Diablo and I have spent over 1000 hours playing it. Starcraft, WoW, the list goes on.

 

[Hoff]

Okay there's another main difference; I don't see it as having to be completely serious and just go all out for it. While I agree that different playstyles are all valid; each playstyle has goals as a common factor whether someone charges at the goal with everything they've got doing anything possible to get a little closer to it or just leisurely strolling toward it. There's no need for someone to be extremely exhaustive when it comes to their journey because it may not be what they enjoy like you or Adam, but they still have a journey that can be enjoyed and is far more likely to be enjoyed than the result therein. You talk as if the people you know play with no real goal in mind but I find that to be completely impossible. As I said before their goal might be relaxation. A goal so much more comprehensive and deep that standard goals created by games such as PvP are the equivalent of a drop of water against an ocean. A goal that will likely never e completed but will have a journey towards it. Most people tend to freight about that forgetting that you don't have to reach the goal to get some level of satisfaction. Just like you feel when you beat a difficult opponent in PvP your friends may find something in a game that gives them a great deal of fun without needing too much work on their part. These two situations will give the two of you the same satisfaction. They may not actively search for the situations as you do but the are seeking them.

I'm not trying to criticize any specific playstyle but instead the mindset of everyone that plays regardless of playstyle. There is no playstyle that involves no goal of any kind. The goals are simply different and may not be ones laid out by the game but they are still there.

 

[namiasdf]

I think your main point was to criticize a certain style of gameplay regarding FTB. In that a lot of players do not have the right mentality when it comes to FTB. That in FTB, the process matters more than the outcome.

What I was trying to point out was that, this style of gameplay comes from a very casual niche of gamer. I am not saying that they mindlessly play games or that they don't have any intention on succeeding, rather their methods and intensity when it comes to gaming aren't geared towards efficiency and effectiveness. It's about what is more fun to them.

It is possible to beat most RPG games (speed runs) using tricks and exploits. Abuse of stunlocks, etc. to get you through difficult boss battles are one such strategy. For some people the point isn't speed, rather then enjoyment of the game/story. I don't play those games, because the conflict between being efficient/effective and playing the game properly (in most cases) are in conflict.

In most PvP situations and competitive PvE situations, balance is continuously made the goal of most devs. In that balance, true competition can be striven for. I don't take pride in having won against a weaker opponent, rather I take the most pride when I succeed against somebody whom I know is better than me. It is a clear indicator that I have improved.

But that means I had lost countless times and have dealt with failure countless times. Though most people apply this kind of attitude towards some parts of their lives (career, etc.) I have a tendency to place this kind of intensity towards anything I do, simply because that is who I am.

 

[Hoff]

I think your main point was to criticize a certain style of gameplay regarding FTB. In that a lot of players do not have the right mentality when it comes to FTB. That in FTB, the process matters more than the outcome.

It is not. My main point is to remind people that though you have a goal the journey toward that goal is important. It has nothing to with how people play or why; it is simply not to forget to realize that once you achieve your goal you're no longer able to enjoy the road to it. It is very possible to be someone who power games or plays to win in minecraft and still very much take enjoyment in the road to the goal. I'm not trying to tell anyone to speed up, slow down, or anything in between. I'm trying to say they should be aware of the journey to a goal just as much as the goal itself. It is very easy to lose sight of that in either extreme of power gaming or playing for fun. In the case of Adam it took him until he reached that near end point of his journey with the Maltese falcon to realize he gained more from the experience of seeking to accomplish what he set out to do than the goal would ever give him, but he was able to realize it and appreciate it for what it gave him. I imagine he gave the talk on this because by realizing that it gave his goal more significance to him than if he had reached the stage of perfection and only had the end result to show for it.

 

[namiasdf]

I'll let you figure this one out on your own.

 

[Hoff]

I'll let you figure this one out on your own.

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make. The intensity with which one plays a game or does anything does not apply to the idea of being aware of ones journey toward any goal.


You don't play those RPG games "because the conflict between being efficient/effective and playing the game properly (in most cases) are in conflict." This has nothing to do with the journey toward either playing the game properly(As even those that do play the game slowly to enjoy the story may sometimes forget to appreciate each part of the story and the details and instead become so immersed in the story all that matters is the resolution to it.), or the game being made into a speed run as those that do the speed runs still have a journey they must travel down, despite it being shorter, and appreciate. In the latter case the journey may very well be the smaller emphasis but it still adds a great deal to what you'll get out of it.

You already practice what it is I'm preaching, I think anyway. You understand and are aware of all the losses and the struggle it took you to overcome an opponent that was powerful. If you were unaware of that what would make the difference between the weaker and the stronger? A bit more mechanical skill involved? Doesn't it become far more valuable to you to know that you came from losses and defeat to becoming stronger than someone you once before couldn't imagine beating?

 

[PoisonWolf]

This thread is highly amusing and entertaining.

 

[Runo]

It is not. My main point is to remind people that though you have a goal the journey toward that goal is important. It has nothing to with how people play or why; it is simply not to forget to realize that once you achieve your goal you're no longer able to enjoy the road to it. It is very possible to be someone who power games or plays to win in minecraft and still very much take enjoyment in the road to the goal. I'm not trying to tell anyone to speed up, slow down, or anything in between. I'm trying to say they should be aware of the journey to a goal just as much as the goal itself. It is very easy to lose sight of that in either extreme of power gaming or playing for fun. In the case of Adam it took him until he reached that near end point of his journey with the Maltese falcon to realize he gained more from the experience of seeking to accomplish what he set out to do than the goal would ever give him, but he was able to realize it and appreciate it for what it gave him. I imagine he gave the talk on this because by realizing that it gave his goal more significance to him than if he had reached the stage of perfection and only had the end result to show for it.

You don't really understand what namasdiaf is trying to point out. People enjoy gaming for different reasons. You come off as really preachy and derogatory to anyone who enjoys gaming in a different way than you in almost every thread. You constantly deride people who find satisfaction in results and efficiency as if they are doing it wrong because they aren't enjoying the journey. Problem is, these people are enjoying the journey but for a different reason.

Results-oriented gamers and competitive gamers enjoy the journey the same way you do but in a different fashion, sometimes self-improvement, sometimes achievements, sometimes ladder climbing, sometimes speed runs, sometimes optimal builds. It may not look like they are enjoying it to someone of a different mindset, but they really are and look back at it with fond memories. The main post is insinuating that these people are playing the game wrong and need a reminder to change their perspective in order to properly enjoy gaming, which is false. Its like preaching religion to an atheist.

I Hope what I posted was clear and not too derisive, but its hard to word. In summary, people don't need to be reminded to enjoy the journey, they already know it. They need to understand that people enjoy the journey in different ways, some not always compatible.

I get joy out of efficiency, optimization, and competitive ladder climbing. My journey isn't going to look the same as someone who enjoys creative roleplay or story-discovery gaming, but they are all journeys nonetheless.