Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

[Pyure]

Ahhh, the old version problem again. Apologies to Reika, I see that is a pet peeve. Alas Im constrained to a server running the latest version of Monster.

If its a small server and won't annoy too many folks, consider pestering the owner a bit to upgrade those mods, as they've seen substantial changes even since v24a.

I don't follow it very closely these days but v25 is likely just around the corner, and the changelog is expected to be rather large.

 

[dilznick5]

Oh oh oh, power related suggestion!

I searched through the rest of the thread, didnt see this anywhere but apologies in advance if its already been mentioned.

What about unequal power distribution? As far as I understand rotarycraft you can only split shaft power into equal pieces. Works great with most of the power suppliers being perfectly matched (or some scale of) the consumers, just use x many engines per machine. But I like centralized power generation and decentralized power consumption. See above reference to hydrokinetic power plant.
It seems weird to me to have to split and rejoin shaft lines to get balanced power to different consumers. And now that I am getting a reactor up and running its worse, how do I distribute that ~1GW among a whole factory complex where different machines use orders of magnitude different power levels?

Im guessing the answer is something along the lines of 'that is a complete rewrite so no way Jose' but what about building the power network so that machines only draw the amount of torque they need rather than the network supplying a constant value?

 

[Pyure]

Oh oh oh, power related suggestion!

I searched through the rest of the thread, didnt see this anywhere but apologies in advance if its already been mentioned.

What about unequal power distribution? As far as I understand rotarycraft you can only split shaft power into equal pieces. Works great with most of the power suppliers being perfectly matched (or some scale of) the consumers, just use x many engines per machine. But I like centralized power generation and decentralized power consumption. See above reference to hydrokinetic power plant.
It seems weird to me to have to split and rejoin shaft lines to get balanced power to different consumers. And now that I am getting a reactor up and running its worse, how do I distribute that ~1GW among a whole factory complex where different machines use orders of magnitude different power levels?

Im guessing the answer is something along the lines of 'that is a complete rewrite so no way Jose' but what about building the power network so that machines only draw the amount of torque they need rather than the network supplying a constant value?

ElectriCraft was added to provide exactly this, and iirc its present in Monster by default (Sorry if I'm wrong)

 

[Reika]

Oh oh oh, power related suggestion!

I searched through the rest of the thread, didnt see this anywhere but apologies in advance if its already been mentioned.

What about unequal power distribution? As far as I understand rotarycraft you can only split shaft power into equal pieces. Works great with most of the power suppliers being perfectly matched (or some scale of) the consumers, just use x many engines per machine. But I like centralized power generation and decentralized power consumption. See above reference to hydrokinetic power plant.
It seems weird to me to have to split and rejoin shaft lines to get balanced power to different consumers. And now that I am getting a reactor up and running its worse, how do I distribute that ~1GW among a whole factory complex where different machines use orders of magnitude different power levels?

Im guessing the answer is something along the lines of 'that is a complete rewrite so no way Jose' but what about building the power network so that machines only draw the amount of torque they need rather than the network supplying a constant value?

The shaft junction does have nine options to control how it splits the power, and as Pyure mentions, ElectriCraft has resistors which allow you direct current (and thus torque and thus power) control.

 

[dilznick5]

Server owner is too lazy to update (it's me) more because I have to hold each users hands for the update process. Changelogs don't show anything paradigm changing yet so I am waiting. Having a tonne of fun the way it is so no sweat.

Electricraft is in, haven't tried it yet. Description suggested it did power splitting same as rotarycraft. Going to try messing around with it when I get home.

 

[Pyure]

Electricraft is in, haven't tried it yet. Description suggested it did power splitting same as rotarycraft. Going to try messing around with it when I get home.

Some minor quirks aside (ohms related, and a curious need to carry dyes around) ElC is my favorite all time power system.

I would commit crimes to see a mod like use this system.[DOUBLEPOST=1405628871][/DOUBLEPOST]

I've yet to find any reasonable way to stabilize a GW or two worth of output (not willing to make a massive bank of magnetostatics or induction coils), much less whatever the fusion reactor is capable of. Makes me very sad but what can ya' do. I did think some more today and thought maybe if I go generator>1 wire>resistor set to slightly less than minimum combined turbine output>1 wire>motor>shaft>generator>network, that might isolate the fluctuations and limit any TPS loss to that isolated bridge network, but not sure if it'll work. I'll try it tonight and see.

I wonder if you'd ever see a net positive benefit to breaking up the power into small enough pieces to flywheel them, then convert that? Doubt it.

Among things I would have committed crimes for would have been to see the small turbine simulate the hp version in terms of power stability.

 

[Kirameki]

Server owner is too lazy to update (it's me) more because I have to hold each users hands for the update process. Changelogs don't show anything paradigm changing yet so I am waiting. Having a tonne of fun the way it is so no sweat.

Electricraft is in, haven't tried it yet. Description suggested it did power splitting same as rotarycraft. Going to try messing around with it when I get home.

Since you're on the same version I am, a couple warnings should you go Electricraft:
-Don't hook a resistor directly to an induction motor or you may suffer massive TPS drop.
-If you plan to use your turbine as input, find a way to stabilize the output before the induction generator or TPS will go down proportionally to size of the cable network.
I've yet to find any reasonable way to stabilize a GW or two worth of output (not willing to make a massive bank of magnetostatics or induction coils), much less whatever the fusion reactor is capable of. Makes me very sad but what can ya' do. I did think some more today and thought maybe if I go generator>1 wire>resistor set to slightly less than minimum combined turbine output>1 wire>motor>shaft>generator>network, that might isolate the fluctuations and limit any TPS loss to that isolated bridge network, but not sure if it'll work. I'll try it tonight and see.

 

[dilznick5]

Awesome, thanks for the heads up.

Edited to include:
Back to the subject of power generation and distribution. What I was trying to get at with my comment about networks only pulling the power they need was changing the nature of the generators to be more physically realistic.

Is it possible/desirable to have the generators run at full speed, but provide the potential for torque up to a maximum power? Then have the consumers pull the network torque draw up to that maximum if they add enough load? Im trying to find an example mixture of machines and generators but @Reika has done such a good job of matching power production to consumption I cant find one. What Im getting at is make it like a real engine, if you put a 351cc gasoline engine on a go kart, you arent going to go a million km/h, you just arent going to pull anywhere near the full power of the engine.

 

[Demosthenex]

Server owner is too lazy to update (it's me) more because I have to hold each users hands for the update process.

I feel your pain. My server has a few changes on top of Monster and I'm always having to hold hands to apply our differences to Monster.

Any ideas on alternative distribution tools to automate this?

 

[trajing]

I feel your pain. My server has a few changes on top of Monster and I'm always having to hold hands to apply our differences to Monster.

Any ideas on alternative distribution tools to automate this?

Apart from learning how to program? No.

 

[Kirameki]

I did think some more today and thought maybe if I go generator>1 wire>resistor set to slightly less than minimum combined turbine output>1 wire>motor>shaft>generator>network, that might isolate the fluctuations and limit any TPS loss to that isolated bridge network, but not sure if it'll work. I'll try it tonight and see.

So after some experimentation, I've discovered something that may be a bug, but not sure if it's fixed in later versions, so want to ask if anyone on the newest version could test this for me. if I have two turbines, and combine the output via a shaft junction, then connect an induction generator>wire>3200A resistor(Orange Orange Red)>wire>induction motor>dynamo, it reads a constant output (yay!), as it should. However, if I change this up to remove the shaft junction and instead have each turbine output to an induction generator, and combine the generator output into a single wire hooked to the resistor, the resistor gets completely bypassed and the output of the motor equals the varying inputs of the turbines. if someone could check if this is also in the latest version that'd be awesome. Thanks!

 

[Reika]

So after some experimentation, I've discovered something that may be a bug, but not sure if it's fixed in later versions, so want to ask if anyone on the newest version could test this for me. if I have two turbines, and combine the output via a shaft junction, then connect an induction generator>wire>3200A resistor(Orange Orange Red)>wire>induction motor>dynamo, it reads a constant output (yay!), as it should. However, if I change this up to remove the shaft junction and instead have each turbine output to an induction generator, and combine the generator output into a single wire hooked to the resistor, the resistor gets completely bypassed and the output of the motor equals the varying inputs of the turbines. if someone could check if this is also in the latest version that'd be awesome. Thanks!

The reason is that 3200A corresponds to 25600Nm of torque, so each turbine is fitting within that limit.

You have in effect two paths, one from turbine A to the output and one from turbine B to the output. Each generates about 1750A and 524kV. The resistor limits path current to 3200A, but each path is treated separately.

This is a quirk in the power system that I doubt can be fixed since the path builder cannot use other paths to reference when determining current flow.

 

[Saereth]

Also, I want to address the issue of ElectriCraft power loss.
I use silver wires rather frequently, and loss is almost negligible. The way you do that is by reducing the current and increasing the voltage. That way, every time you lose a volt to resistance, you lose little power, since power=current*voltage. For example:
Say your wire has a loss of 20V, and your supply is 100A at 12000V (1.2MW). You lose 20V*100A of power, or 2kW. If that was 1A and and 1.2 million volts, you lose 20W of power. The other way around, at 30000A and 40V, you lose 30000A*20V = 600kW.

managing the loss wasn't particularly an issue, the conversion to current is very straight forward the way you've done it. The issue I was presenting was the fact that -any- loss means the difference of your wind turbine [for example] being able to run a grinder or not, with no exception. The observation was that this seemed to encourage the exclusion of electricraft early game. Later the loss is not an issue of course, both in being able to provide higher voltages, having more power than your machines need and ultimately having loss less wiring. Leaving Electricraft for a mid to late game only endeavor seemed unfortunate in that regard, but it's of course your design decision to make.

 

[Reika]

managing the loss wasn't particularly an issue, the conversion to current is very straight forward the way you've done it. The issue I was presenting was the fact that -any- loss means the difference of your wind turbine [for example] being able to run a grinder or not, with no exception. The observation was that this seemed to encourage the exclusion of electricraft early game. Later the loss is not an issue of course, both in being able to provide higher voltages, having more power than your machines need and ultimately having loss less wiring. Leaving Electricraft for a mid to late game only endeavor seemed unfortunate in that regard, but it's of course your design decision to make.

If you are so early in the game that you are still using Wind turbines as a mainline source or where you can just generate enough power for things like grinders and fans, you cannot afford the generator, motor and wires (16+ gold, 20+ steel, nickel, copper, silver) anyways.

 

[Demosthenex]

I'd just like to point out in the grinding debate that I really enjoyed the requirement to generate enough power to open the next tier, instead of just using X^128 amount of a material.

For instance it took me making jet fuel to power a friction heater on a furnace to make tungsten to unlock the ability to make large turbines. Tungsten wasn't rare, but the amount of power required to smelt it was the obstacle to overcome.

Reika if you wanted to keep making tier goals based on total power or power management savvy (specific requirements like a machine must have exactly an uncommon amount of torque + speed and no more) I would be all for it!

 

[Demosthenex]

Back to the hydro power debate... They still seem to be OP to me. They only consume lube for all the power they give, and they bypass the need for all the mid-tier engines.

Could we get some sort of tiering mechanism? Maybe a baby hydro makes less than a gas engine, but needs no lube (like wind turbines) and is powered like 4-8 wind turbines?

Then you can make a larger one that needs lube and maybe more space (ie: multiblock like the turbines)? Have it be like a gas or performance gas engine?

The largest would need tungsten bearings and diamond shafts and still eat lube, and be large multiblock and provide as much power as they do now, and stackable?

I think the point is fuel in a compact space should have more energy than a waterfall. Hoover Dam can make lots of power, but look at the size. If I made a water turbine the same size as a gas engine, the output would be trivial.

 

[Reika]

Back to the hydro power debate... They still seem to be OP to me. They only consume lube for all the power they give, and they bypass the need for all the mid-tier engines.

Could we get some sort of tiering mechanism? Maybe a baby hydro makes less than a gas engine, but needs no lube (like wind turbines) and is powered like 4-8 wind turbines?

Then you can make a larger one that needs lube and maybe more space (ie: multiblock like the turbines)? Have it be like a gas or performance gas engine?

The largest would need tungsten bearings and diamond shafts and still eat lube, and be large multiblock and provide as much power as they do now, and stackable?

I think the point is fuel in a compact space should have more energy than a waterfall. Hoover Dam can make lots of power, but look at the size. If I made a water turbine the same size as a gas engine, the output would be trivial.

V25 increases the lubricant consumption, but I do not want to split what is currently one machine into four.

 

[Demosthenex]

I can appreciate that.

I think my only point is that with just water... I'm running most of my base and machines. I have two boring mines, my AE (2MW/s), 3 extractors and more with hydro. It's easy and runs forever because it outputs so much power and only consumes a bit of lube.

Would you consider reducing the output power to less than gas?

It makes sense that ethanol engines + blaze powder should put out alot of power (256kw), but for the hydro to be double and effectively low cost is really overpowered.

A lube farm is low maintenance and low hassle. A renewable Ethanol farm and blaze powder farm is hard. I certainly felt in my game that after I made all the investment in creating renewable sources of ethanol, trying out hydros made that investment completely unnecessary.

I guess the issue really boils down to how much power do you get for how much maintenance. Hydro has a high power to maintenance ratio, while every other engine (even gas turbines) has a low power to maintenance ratio. I'm just advocating we reduce the ratio for the hydro by increasing it's maintenance or reducing it's power.

 

[Reika]

Would you consider reducing the output power to less than gas?

The power output, like the other engines, is calculated using real physics (in this case a kinematics equation for falling water), so no.

 

[Demosthenex]

The power output, like the other engines, is calculated using real physics (in this case a kinematics equation for falling water), so no.

I like what you did with the thermal mass of stone to lava. ;]

So I'm looking at your code, and comparing against the first reference I found (wikipedia) for calculating the power of falling water. I don't understand the square root, are you using height and gravity to create a flow amount? I'm trying to understand because I love how you root all of this in physics!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropower#Calculating_the_amount_of_available_power

Here's the power curve I see from your formula: https://imgur.com/Eg2UFnV

I used 0.25 * 1000 * sqrt(2 * 9.81 * dy) * dy/1024, where
* 0.25 must be efficiency
* 1000 kilograms per M^3 of water
* 9.81 is acceleration due to gravity
* dy is the height of the water column

If I assume the flow rate can never be more than 1 cubic meter per second (think of when you remove a source block, how long it takes to create a new water block. It's about a second) I get a flat value which caps at 150 kW @ 64 high. I can attribute Minecraft rendering a solid column of water to rendering, I'm asking how much water it would create to make the flow since all MC water physics is made up anyway.

0.25 * 1000 * 1 * 9.81 * dy / 1024
https://imgur.com/b3RWaRr

Using the wikipedia formula.