Bee Breeding Problems DW20 1.5.2

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OrangeHatKidd

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Jul 29, 2019
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This is the second time I've Posted here about a bee problem xD

Anyway for some reason I can't get anything other than a cultivated princess from a common princess cultivated drone combo although I should be able to get either diligent or noble bees from said combination. I have gotten noble drones before and I've had diligent as a recessive gene but I have never gotten a princess of either after trying 20+ times. Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks for your help!
 

Mero

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Jul 29, 2019
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Are you analyzing them before you breed them?
! When you breed hybrids, make sure the odds are in your favor.
So try breeding 2 bees with recessive diligent.
 

PhantomRage

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Jul 29, 2019
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It is quite a rare chance ;) Just keep trying. Just a tip, remember to keep atleast 1 purebred pair for every species (Unless you have Imperial bees + Extra bees obtained/installed respectively for species serums) so that you don't have to rebreed them all over again if you need it :)
 
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OrangeHatKidd

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Jul 29, 2019
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Ugh wow I think I'm just somehow cursed with cultivated. breeding a noble with a noble just gave me cultivated xD
 

Mero

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Yeah, it happens. I've lost 2 levels of mutations in 2 breedings before.
Just keep at it.
 

Siro

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Jul 29, 2019
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massive amounts of parallelism and a separate non-breeding set just for making honey drops to identify everything helps.
 

SandGrainOne

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Jul 29, 2019
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Ugh wow I think I'm just somehow cursed with cultivated. breeding a noble with a noble just gave me cultivated xD

It should be impossible to get Cultivated by breeding a Noble with a Noble. Unless something has changed; Noble is a recessive gene. If you have a noble bee it must either be pure or mixed with another recessive species. Cultivated is dominate so a Noble and Cultivated hybrid will always be Cultivated-Noble. Never Noble-Cultivated.

Right?
 

snooder

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Jul 29, 2019
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It should be impossible to get Cultivated by breeding a Noble with a Noble. Unless something has changed; Noble is a recessive gene. If you have a noble bee it must either be pure or mixed with another recessive species. Cultivated is dominate so a Noble and Cultivated hybrid will always be Cultivated-Noble. Never Noble-Cultivated.

Right?

I don't believe that's true at all.

What getting a cultivated out of what he thought was a noble/noble breeding pair tells me is that OP isn't doing it right. He should be doing three different steps with as much parallelism as possible.
1. Breeding pure bees for mutations. When trying for a mutation, ALWAYS breed pure bees. And by pure, that means the same species in both active and inactive side.
2. Combining hybrids to get pures. This is where you combine either two hybrids or a hybrid and a pure to try to get pure bees of the type you want. It is also good for separating the hybrids back to the pure form of the parent bees so you can do step 1 again with the same bee.
3. Replicating a bee by putting a random princess in the apiary with the pure drones of the species you want.
Here's where probability comes in. If you run 4 (or more) different apiaries with soulframes, you ought to get at least one pure mutated bee of the type you want, and a bunch of hybrids. Sure, each individual pairing might have a low chance, but when you do several at once, you'll have a much, much better shot. The only downside is that you need a massive line of replicators (or the extra bees machines) to keep making more princesses of the parent bee species. I find that oblivious frames works really well for gettting a nice stock of drones that you can them slap into automated apiaries and use as a low-tech form of replicator. Keep in mind, with this process, every time you are doing step one, you will need to make a fresh set of 4-6 princesses.

Sure, you might have bad luck and just get a bunch of pure drones in a row after Step 2, but then you just do Step 3, and you can convert any princess at all into that species. If you do it right, you will ALWAYS move from "pure trash" to "hybrid" to "pure treasure." Just make sure that you are analyzing both princess and drone so you never combine two hybrids when there is a pure drone available.
 
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SandGrainOne

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Jul 29, 2019
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I don't believe that's true at all.


You start by quoting me, but don't really reply to my message at all. In any shape or form. I personally know how to get new species and to purify them properly.

My question was if it's possible to get a Noble and Cultivated hybrid with Noble as the active gene. I don't think it is.
 

snooder

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You start by quoting me, but don't really reply to my message at all. In any shape or form. I personally know how to get new species and to purify them properly.

My question was if it's possible to get a Noble and Cultivated hybrid with Noble as the active gene. I don't think it is.
Sorry, let me clarify. I don't think it's true because I think I've seen Noble-Cultivated hybrids in the past. But I'm not 100% sure and I may be mistaken. In either case, that's not the important part here. The important part is that he should never go from a pure noble to noble pairing and get a cultivated bee out of it. If he is, then he's probably combining hybrids of some kind. And if he is, then getting a pure cultivated bee isn't just expected, it's how it should work so he can breed that cultivated again with a common bee for a second chance at a mutation.
 

SandGrainOne

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Jul 29, 2019
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Sorry, let me clarify. I don't think it's true because I think I've seen Noble-Cultivated hybrids in the past. But I'm not 100% sure and I may be mistaken. In either case, that's not the important part here. The important part is that he should never go from a pure noble to noble pairing and get a cultivated bee out of it. If he is, then he's probably combining hybrids of some kind. And if he is, then getting a pure cultivated bee isn't just expected, it's how it should work so he can breed that cultivated again with a common bee for a second chance at a mutation.

That was my thought as well. I'm just not sure how it works with recessive and dominate species. I don't think anyone has ever seen a Noble-Cultivated, but I'm not sure so I asked.
 

Hydra

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Jul 29, 2019
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Ugh wow I think I'm just somehow cursed with cultivated. breeding a noble with a noble just gave me cultivated xD

This means you're breeding hybrids. You were breeding a noble-cultivated with a noble-cultivated probably. This means that the possibilities for the offspring are:
noble: 25%
noble-cultivated: 25%
cultivated-noble: 25%
cultivated: 25%

As you can see there's a rather small chance of getting a purebred noble that way.

When going for mutations always try to use a pure princess and a pure drone of the 2 different species. It gives a much higher chance for mutations.[DOUBLEPOST=1379051815][/DOUBLEPOST]
That was my thought as well. I'm just not sure how it works with recessive and dominate species. I don't think anyone has ever seen a Noble-Cultivated, but I'm not sure so I asked.

Dominant / recessive does not matter at all in mutations. It just a factor in which of the 2 species is 'active' (for the production of combs) after you get offspring.
 

SandGrainOne

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Jul 29, 2019
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Dominant / recessive does not matter at all in mutations. It just a factor in which of the 2 species is 'active' (for the production of combs) after you get offspring.

I wasn't talking about mutations. I was talking about active and inactive traits.
Noble is recessive and Cultivated is dominate. Right? So getting a Noble-Cultivated hybrid with Noble as the active gene shouldn't be possible. Right?

The only documentation I've found about species heredity was on the old Forestry wiki.
http://forestry.sengir.net/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Items.Bees

If these things are true, then a Noble (not analyzed) bee can't have any cultivated in it. If it did, it would show up as Cultivated. Do you see what I'm getting at?

I personally think OrangeHatKidd had two Cultivated-Noble hybrids and called them Nobles out of laziness, but I'm unsure because I haven't been dealing with bees since 1.4.7.
 

Hydra

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I wasn't talking about mutations. I was talking about active and inactive traits.
Noble is recessive and Cultivated is dominate. Right? So getting a Noble-Cultivated hybrid with Noble as the active gene shouldn't be possible. Right?

AFAIK which species shows up on an unanalysed bee is just a matter of which one is first. Recessive / dominant and the resulting active / inactive genen only seem to affect the resulting combs.
 

SandGrainOne

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Jul 29, 2019
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I've now done some basic tests. I had 9 pure cultivated princesses and I mated them all with pure Noble drones. The results so far tells me I was right, but the sample might be too small.
All the princesses had 4 in fertility and all offspring became either Cultivated or Majestic. None of them were Noble. This tells me that you can't get a Noble with a "hidden" cultivated gene. All cultivated-noble hybrids will show up as cultivated before you analyze them.
 

b0bst3r

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Jul 29, 2019
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Yeah I've had problems getting Nobles lately, most of the time my common/cultivated breeding gives me Majestics which isn't even supposed to be possible. Problem I have then is I don't have anything to breed the Majestic with. Just keep at it they'll come eventually (the Nobles).
 

snooder

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Jul 29, 2019
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Yeah I've had problems getting Nobles lately, most of the time my common/cultivated breeding gives me Majestics which isn't even supposed to be possible. Problem I have then is I don't have anything to breed the Majestic with. Just keep at it they'll come eventually (the Nobles).

Analyze your bees. You probably aren't breeding pures.

I'll repeat; when trying for a mutation, only breed pure parents. This means that you HAVE to run them through a beealyzer to make sure that both the active and inactive side are the same. What is likely happening is that you are breeding Cultivated-Noble hybrids. You won't notice this until you analyze the bee and find out what ALL the traits are, not just the active species.
 

b0bst3r

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No offense Snooder but I've been breeding bees a loooooooong time and I know and I still don't get Nobles (easily) and no matter which way you can concoct it up a common & culti should never make a Majestic unless there's a very small % chance of skipping a generation.