BC power mechanics

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PhilHibbs

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How does BC power work?

Do Energy Tesseracts always send as much energy as they can, or are they sensitive to the energy being drawn at the other end?

For example, say I have 13 Industrial Steam Engines generating 104 MJ/t, minus conduit loss which brings it down to around 100. An Energy Tesseract can send 100 MJ/t which gets reduced to 75 MJ/t at the other end. Does that mean that all the energy is being sent? If so, and if I attach a machine (or another tesseract) at the generation end, how is the power distributed between the two? Proximity? Random?

Or, am I misunderstanding something fundamental about BC power? Engines generate power in bursts, so how does 8 MJ/t work if it pulses once per second?
 

Loufmier

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Or, am I misunderstanding something fundamental about BC power? Engines generate power in bursts, so how does 8 MJ/t work if it pulses once per second?
i`m just gonna quote myself on that:

4 mj/t it need to push 4mj*quantity of ticks in second(and i completely forgot ha many is that) per stroke into machine.

at least i believe it works that way.
 

Omicron

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Energy tesseracts are sensitive to power being drawn on the other end; the entire Buildcraft energy network is sensitive.

Power mechanics differ between conduits and conductive pipes (although the latest revisions by CovertJaguar made them more similar than they were before).

Conductive pipes split power by the normal BC pipe splitting mechanic: an even split at every junction. So imagine you have a long line of conductivbe pipes between your tesseract and the engines. Now attach three consumers to the side of that long pipe. The first consumer gets 50%, and 50% passes on. The second consumer gets 50% of what's left (25% in total) and the rest (another 25%) passes on. The third consumer gets 50% of what's left (12.5% in total) and the remaining power (another 12.5%) reaches the tesseract.

However, this applies only in the case where each consumer can actually consume all the power they are eligible to receive. If you're pushing 100 MJ/t through the pipe, and the first consumer is a quarry, it will take the 50 MJ/t it's eligible for because a quarry can actually use 50 MJ/t (roughly). But if it's a powered furnace, and its internal buffer is full already, it will only take 2 MJ/t out of the 50 it could draw. So instead of 50 being diverted and 50 passing on, 2 will be diverted and 98 will pass on. There is no loss involved with machines rejecting power.

Redstone energy conduits, on the other hand, are much more comparable to a peer-to-peer network. Each conduit section that has an engine attached to it sees all consumers, and will split the power it receives from its engine(s) evenly between all of them. Meaning, with conduits, each of the three consumers and the tesseract in the example setup above would receive 25%, if they were able to consume that much.

In regards to burst output of Buildcraft compatible engines: both wooden conductive pipes and redstone energy conduits accept the entire burst from the engine and buffer it. Assuming that a Railcraft industrial steam engine strokes once per second (completely made up figure, don't quote it), it would burst out 8 * 20 = 160 MJ per stroke. The conduit or wooden pipe will buffer this and then transmit it at the rate the network can accept it. If only a single powered furnace is connected, it will send at 2 MJ/t; if there's a tesseract with full power draw and a powered furnace connected, it will send at 127 MJ/t (2 for the furnace, 125 for the tessearct which sends 100 and loses 25).

Both conduits and wooden pipes can fill up their internal buffers, and what happens then depends a lot on which version of Buildcraft and its various associated mods you use. In the current 1.5.2 ecosystem, engines will not be able to output anymore and will continue to fill their internal buffer, eventually topping it up. And what happens then depends on the engine in question - some go boom, some blow a valve and vent all their energy, some simply stall and require the player to fix it.

If you attach a Buildcraft compatible engine directly to a machine, then how much energy is transferred depends on the machine's burst input limit and the engine's stroke length. A Buildcraft pump for example has a burst input limit of 10 MJ per tick. If you attach an engine that outputs more than 10 MJ per stroke, that engine will start filling up on internal energy because it can't output anymore, even if the engine's power output is not too high for the pump. For example, while the pump can use 10 MJ/t (which happens to be identical to its burst input limit, but doesn't have to be), a stirling engine producing just 1 MJ/t strokes so slowly that it cannot possibly transfer all of its power because of its 52 tick stroke length.

However, when the stirling engine heats up, upon reaching the red stage its stroke length will drop down to 8 ticks, during which the stirling engine only generates 8 MJ but can transfer 10. Therefore, a single stirling engine powering a single pump by being directly attached will heat itself up to red and then flash back and forth between yellow and red, much like a redstone engine would (which it does because of similar reasons, except that in this case the redstone engine's own burst output limit is so low that the engine must heat up in order to stroke fast enough).


Any other questions I can help you with? ;)
 

Airship

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Dang, that was well written... I'd like to add that Tesseracts will not send power willy-nilly if they are connected to a network; if there is nothing on the other end of the tesseract that can accept power, no power will be sent to that tesseract after it's internal buffer has filled up, much like how the regular network works. The only thing different between a tesseract connection and a pipe/condit connection is the energy loss.
 

Omicron

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I'm not sure an energy tesseract even has an internal buffer to begin with ;) If it does, it's very small. Maybe a hundred MJ or so.
 

Zarkov

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One detail I recently noticed with tesseracts (probably old news), is that they don't compensate for their own energy loss when requesting power. This means that a quarry will never run at full speed using tesseracts, unless there is an energy cell between the tesseract and the quarry. You can then request 100 MJ/t to the cell, which even with the tesseract loss will give the quarry enough power for full speed.
 
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Omicron

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So basically the quarry requests 50-ish, and the tesseract relays that request as-is, resulting in 50-ish to be sent, which arrives at the quarry as 38-ish due to tessearct losses? I suppose that makes sense, thinking about it.
 

PhilHibbs

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One detail I recently noticed with tesseracts (probably old news), is that they don't compensate for their own energy loss when requesting power. This means that a quarry will never run at full speed using tesseracts, unless there is an energy cell between the tesseract and the quarry. You can then request 100 MJ/t to the cell, which even with the tesseract loss will give the quarry enough power for full speed.
I didn't know that, thanks. I've been doing that anyway with my Filler recently, but I don't have that with my Extra Bees machines, so I should probably add energy cell buffers there.
 

Omicron

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Personal internet pet peeve of mine:

Somebody asks a question, and another poster goes out of their way to write a huge post that addresses every facet of the question asked in as much detail as they can. And then the person asking the question completely ignores it. No like, no thanks, no reply post... heck, not even the hint of an acknowledgement that the post actually exists. And yet, that person continues posting in the very same thread.

A rare issue? Hardly. It happens regularly in the Simple Questions thread and elsewhere on these forums, and it happens to many people who want nothing more than to try and help other players. It's not a big issue with single-line replies to single-line questions (even though it still wouldn't hurt anyone to be polite and say thank you), but with increasing complexity of the question and increasing effort of the answer, it becomes increasingly insulting to pass over it as it it never existed.

There are real people on the other side of your monitor. Treat them as you would if they sat across the table from you - and most importantly, treat them as you would want to be treated. If they are like air to you, then someday you might become like air to them.
 
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Airship

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Ah, I'm guilty of that, sorry if you have ever experienced this :p

I do thank and reply on the first few things, but after I've gotten what I need and the rest of the thread is more of a discussion, I just let it die off... sorry :x

EDIT: On topic, I didn't notice this happening with TE machines connected directly to a tesseract - maybe it's just the quarry and perhaps a filler? Could it be classified as a bug?
 

Omicron

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Maybe the TE machines are "tessearct aware", and know to request 25% more than they need if a tessearct is down the line? There's a possibility, since it's the same mod. But if you suspect a bug, Team CoFH has an issue tracker.
 

Chaos_Therum

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Energy tesseracts are sensitive to power being drawn on the other end; the entire Buildcraft energy network is sensitive.

Power mechanics differ between conduits and conductive pipes (although the latest revisions by CovertJaguar made them more similar than they were before).

Conductive pipes split power by the normal BC pipe splitting mechanic: an even split at every junction. So imagine you have a long line of conductivbe pipes between your tesseract and the engines. Now attach three consumers to the side of that long pipe. The first consumer gets 50%, and 50% passes on. The second consumer gets 50% of what's left (25% in total) and the rest (another 25%) passes on. The third consumer gets 50% of what's left (12.5% in total) and the remaining power (another 12.5%) reaches the tesseract.

However, this applies only in the case where each consumer can actually consume all the power they are eligible to receive. If you're pushing 100 MJ/t through the pipe, and the first consumer is a quarry, it will take the 50 MJ/t it's eligible for because a quarry can actually use 50 MJ/t (roughly). But if it's a powered furnace, and its internal buffer is full already, it will only take 2 MJ/t out of the 50 it could draw. So instead of 50 being diverted and 50 passing on, 2 will be diverted and 98 will pass on. There is no loss involved with machines rejecting power.

Redstone energy conduits, on the other hand, are much more comparable to a peer-to-peer network. Each conduit section that has an engine attached to it sees all consumers, and will split the power it receives from its engine(s) evenly between all of them. Meaning, with conduits, each of the three consumers and the tesseract in the example setup above would receive 25%, if they were able to consume that much.

In regards to burst output of Buildcraft compatible engines: both wooden conductive pipes and redstone energy conduits accept the entire burst from the engine and buffer it. Assuming that a Railcraft industrial steam engine strokes once per second (completely made up figure, don't quote it), it would burst out 8 * 20 = 160 MJ per stroke. The conduit or wooden pipe will buffer this and then transmit it at the rate the network can accept it. If only a single powered furnace is connected, it will send at 2 MJ/t; if there's a tesseract with full power draw and a powered furnace connected, it will send at 127 MJ/t (2 for the furnace, 125 for the tessearct which sends 100 and loses 25).

Both conduits and wooden pipes can fill up their internal buffers, and what happens then depends a lot on which version of Buildcraft and its various associated mods you use. In the current 1.5.2 ecosystem, engines will not be able to output anymore and will continue to fill their internal buffer, eventually topping it up. And what happens then depends on the engine in question - some go boom, some blow a valve and vent all their energy, some simply stall and require the player to fix it.

If you attach a Buildcraft compatible engine directly to a machine, then how much energy is transferred depends on the machine's burst input limit and the engine's stroke length. A Buildcraft pump for example has a burst input limit of 10 MJ per tick. If you attach an engine that outputs more than 10 MJ per stroke, that engine will start filling up on internal energy because it can't output anymore, even if the engine's power output is not too high for the pump. For example, while the pump can use 10 MJ/t (which happens to be identical to its burst input limit, but doesn't have to be), a stirling engine producing just 1 MJ/t strokes so slowly that it cannot possibly transfer all of its power because of its 52 tick stroke length.

However, when the stirling engine heats up, upon reaching the red stage its stroke length will drop down to 8 ticks, during which the stirling engine only generates 8 MJ but can transfer 10. Therefore, a single stirling engine powering a single pump by being directly attached will heat itself up to red and then flash back and forth between yellow and red, much like a redstone engine would (which it does because of similar reasons, except that in this case the redstone engine's own burst output limit is so low that the engine must heat up in order to stroke fast enough).


Any other questions I can help you with? ;)

Beautifully worded and very informative response I learned a lot of things about BC energy in that post but just out of curiosity I know this probably exists somewhere else but what is the maximum energy an energy conduit can transfer I am wondering because I've been debating on if I should replace my conduits with universal cables from UE
 

PhilHibbs

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Somebody asks a question, and another poster goes out of their way to write a huge post that addresses every facet of the question asked in as much detail as they can. And then the person asking the question completely ignores it. No like, no thanks, no reply post... heck, not even the hint of an acknowledgement that the post actually exists. And yet, that person continues posting in the very same thread.
Oops. Sorry. Yes, guilty as charged, and feeling really awful about it. Sometimes I lose track of things. Absent-mindedness rather than malice. Combined with the fact that there was so much information that I had to go back over it a few times. I'm just making excuses now and there really aren't any, so I'll just say sorry again. And thanks.
 

Airship

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Maybe the TE machines are "tessearct aware", and know to request 25% more than they need if a tessearct is down the line? There's a possibility, since it's the same mod. But if you suspect a bug, Team CoFH has an issue tracker.
Actually I just realized I used conduits while testing this, which have an internal buffer. So even if the machines only drew 6MJ from the tesseract (and got 4.8 or so), they would still be able to draw the rest from the buffers of the conduits, which draws much more from the tesseract and thus counteract the whole thing.


Beautifully worded and very informative response I learned a lot of things about BC energy in that post but just out of curiosity I know this probably exists somewhere else but what is the maximum energy an energy conduit can transfer I am wondering because I've been debating on if I should replace my conduits with universal cables from UE
Maximum energy that can be input into a conduit is 1000MJ/t, but it's throughput is infinite. This means that if you have a powerplant producing 2k MJ/t, you could just connect another conduit to the source and then merge the two conduits into a single cable. I'm not quite sure if there is infinite output, though. Probably restricted to 1k there as well.

Oops. Sorry. Yes, guilty as charged, and feeling really awful about it. Sometimes I lose track of things. Absent-mindedness rather than malice. Combined with the fact that there was so much information that I had to go back over it a few times. I'm just making excuses now and there really aren't any, so I'll just say sorry again. And thanks.
HA!
 

PhilHibbs

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Maximum energy that can be input into a conduit is 1000MJ/t, but it's throughput is infinite. This means that if you have a powerplant producing 2k MJ/t, you could just connect another conduit to the source and then merge the two conduits into a single cable.
I thought I'd read somewhere that it was 500 MJ/t. I guess that makes sense since liquiducts work the same way - you need 9 connections to 36HP boiler, but after that it can be a single duct with no problem.
Yeah, I guess admitting to being wrong on the internet is kinda rare.
 

Omicron

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Yeah, I guess admitting to being wrong on the internet is kinda rare.

And I thank you for doing it! It makes me feel a lot better. :) Note the complaint I voiced above really was a long time coming, and you were in no way the only person responsible for my ire, so don't feel too awful.

Regarding conduits, King Lemming once told me in PM that a conduit's burst input limit is something like 500 MJ. That is, if you have five engines attached that all tried to burst 150 MJ each into the exact same section of conduit during the exact same tick, then you would run afoul of that limit, even if the conduit could store more. However, very few engines output more than 100 MJ per stroke during regular operation, and you rarely attach more than maybe two or three engines to the same block of conduit, so this should hardly be an issue. It's also possible that that limit has been raised to 1,000 since then, since it was quite a few versions back. Only the King can confirm/deny.

If the above value still holds true, then the figure 1,000 might be something like a total transfer limit of an outputting conduit section - either for the section as a whole, or for each machine attached to that section.

As you can see, making any statement about "maximum throughput" of conduits is a really complicated business and depends strongly on what exactly your definition of "throughput" actually is and/or where you attempt to measure it. Plus I don't believe these mechanics have ever been made public in their entirety by Team CoFH, and there exist no engines or machines in Minecraft that have enough input/output to test with. The best guess we have remains "the limit is likely high enough to not be worth worrying about, no matter your build".
 

Airship

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I could swear I read about the throughput/input thing during a discussion between covert and lemming after the new buildcraft changes... Too lazy to find out, heh. Actually, come to think of it, it might have been the throughput that was capped at 1k ... Hmm. Are there any way of measuring MJ/t? Would be interesting to see if I could overload a line of conduit with massive amounts of boilers...
 

Omicron

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You can try TE's multimeter. But in the past I didn't find it to be very reliable when dealing with the bursty nature of engines; it tended to get confused and report totally bogus values. If you just spawn in a wall of filled redstone energy cells though, it might work.
 

Chaos_Therum

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yeah I was wondering about that to is there a way to measure mj/t through a pipe or conduit[DOUBLEPOST=1373017262][/DOUBLEPOST]from what I saw when i used the multimeter it just told you network saturation
 

Airship

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I actually did try spawning in a bunch of redstone energy cells. A wall of 15 (set to output 1500MJ/t) seemed to have no issues sending all their power through a single line to a wall of 15 empty cells. The Multimeter only spoke about network saturation, which was at 89% during the ordeal. Say, what exactly is network saturation? :x