Applied Energistics wierdness

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Cougar281

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Jul 29, 2019
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I set up a new server running FTB Unleashed 1.1.3 and decided to start fresh rather than try to bring things over from my Ultimate world.

I've been working along and have started getting some ME devices (I've been working hard straight for that as I didn't want to get too deep into having 500 chests or barrels to store all the stuff) and currently have a ME drive, Controller, crafting terminal and IO Port, and for another section, a ME chest.

I started by making three 4k storage cells. Two of the three are pretty much full item wise, and just under half full size wise. I set to making a few 16k cells, one for the ME chest and one to upgrade one of the cells in my drive as well as the IO Port to make the transfer easy.

Got it all built and transferred the contents of one storage cell (I removed the other two so only that one would move to the 16k cell). The 4k Cell had 2414k of 4096k used. When transferred over to the 16k cell, the 16k one had 8366k of 16384k used.... :eek:

I tested using the ME Chest and manually transferring the contents of the cell that had the least number of different items with a pretty much identical result.

Shouldn't 2414k of items on a 4k cell be 2414k of items on a 16k cell?
 
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Maul_Junior

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Jul 29, 2019
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On the larger size ME drives, individual items take up more and more space to store individual types.
 
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Maul_Junior

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agreed. it usually scales up with the TOTAL amount of space on the drive. (compare how much 1 individual item takes on each of the drives)
 
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Cougar281

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That makes no sense... Based on what I saw today in unleashed 1.1.3, the 16k cells will not hold much, if any more total items than the 1k.....

If an iron ore block requires 1 byte in a 1K cell, it should only require 1 byte in a 16k cell....

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
 
KingTriaxx

KingTriaxx

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No, because individual types take up x amount of space, and additional ones take up x space for each item, which I believe increases algorithmically. Was the 16k empty when you started? If not the addition of the items from the 4k might have added to what was already there and changed the numbers.
 
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Cougar281

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Uhm... How do you figure Wrong? Let's take this IRL.... If you have a 5MB file on a 100GB drive, does it 'scale up' on a 1TB drive? Nope.

Bottom line: if an item 'costs' 1 byte on a 1k cell, it should 'cost' 1 byte on a 64k cell. If storage capacities 'scale' based on storage cell size, what the hells the point of the larger cells?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
 
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Maul_Junior

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Dude, check out the link.

It's to the Mod's wiki.

Each device is designed to hold 63 types of items.

The information comes from the mod creator.

Therefore, in this particular argument about these particular game mechanics (not necessarily IRL mechanics), you are wrong.
 
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Cougar281

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63 types of items, yes....... But the EXACT SAME ITEMS in a 4k card should take the EXACT SAME amount of space on a 64k card (or 16k in my case).

My point is based on what I just saw, the 16k card holds NO MORE ITEMS (not DIFFERENT items) than a 4k card.

I understand COMPLETELY that no matter if you're talking about a 1k or a 64k card, they all accept a max of 63 DIFFERENT items... But the fact that items that take up 'x'k of space on a 4k card take up pretty much 4x the space on a card 4x the size SIMPLY DOESN'T WORK. Based on that, what the heck is the point of anything larger than 1k cards? The idea behind the larger cards is to be able to hold more items...

I don't recall seeing this in ultimate, but I'm going to look.... My point, since it has been missed, is that when you transfer 1k of items from a 4k card to a 16k card, you should have 1k of items on the 16k card, not 4k of items on a 16k card that once occupied 1k on a 4k card...

EDIT: I'll take back not seeing it in ultimate; there are similar results with that. But HOW does a SPECIFIC set of items (in my test case, 1 stack each of Iron Ore, Diamond Ore and Green Xychorium) taking up 48k out of 1024k taking up 120k on a 4k card make ANY sense whatsoever? Based on what I'm seeing, you're not going to see anything close to 16 times the storage (assuming the same different TYPES of items) on a 16k card than you would on a 1k card... maybe 1.25 times more, if you are lucky.... this 'scaling' CAN'T be right....

Again: My point is a set of items that take up, say 1024 bytes on a 4096 byte card should take up the same 1024 bytes on a 4096, 16384k or 65536k card. The way this is looking, the 64k card will, in reality, hold the same amount of items as the 1k card....... Again, not DIFFERENT items... Let's say for arguments sake... a 1k card can hold 1000 cobble. By that math/logic, a 16k card should be able to hold 16,000 cobble. But based on what I've seen, a 1k card can hold 1000 cobble, and a 16k card can also hold (only) 1000 cobble. When a card that is 4x the size uses pretty much 4x the space for the EXACT SAME ITEMS, something's not quite right.... See what I'm saying?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
 
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namiasdf

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I don't think items take up more memory space per item, it shouldn't logically anyways. You are limited to having 63 unique item types per drive, but that has nothing to do with how much space each individual item takes up. Two oak logs in a 4k cell should not take up more room than two oak logs in a 16k cell. Conversely, a log and a piece of cobble in a 4k cell should not take up more room that a log and a piece of cobble in a 16k cell.
 
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Maul_Junior

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Cougar281 said:
63 types of items, yes....... But the EXACT SAME ITEMS in a 4k card should take the EXACT SAME amount of space on a 64k card (or 16k in my case).

My point is based on what I just saw, the 16k card holds NO MORE ITEMS (not DIFFERENT items) than a 4k card.

I understand COMPLETELY that no matter if you're talking about a 1k or a 64k card, they all accept a max of 63 DIFFERENT items... But the fact that items that take up 'x'k of space on a 4k card take up pretty much 4x the space on a card 4x the size SIMPLY DOESN'T WORK. Based on that, what the heck is the point of anything larger than 1k cards? The idea behind the larger cards is to be able to hold more items...

I don't recall seeing this in ultimate, but I'm going to look.... My point, since it has been missed, is that when you transfer 1k of items from a 4k card to a 16k card, you should have 1k of items on the 16k card, not 4k of items on a 16k card that once occupied 1k on a 4k card...

EDIT: I'll take back not seeing it in ultimate; there are similar results with that. But HOW does a SPECIFIC set of items (in my test case, 1 stack each of Iron Ore, Diamond Ore and Green Xychorium) taking up 48k out of 1024k taking up 120k on a 4k card make ANY sense whatsoever? Based on what I'm seeing, you're not going to see anything close to 16 times the storage (assuming the same different TYPES of items) on a 16k card than you would on a 1k card... maybe 1.25 times more, if you are lucky.... this 'scaling' CAN'T be right....

Again: My point is a set of items that take up, say 1024 bytes on a 4096 byte card should take up the same 1024 bytes on a 4096, 16384k or 65536k card. The way this is looking, the 64k card will, in reality, hold the same amount of items as the 1k card....... Again, not DIFFERENT items... Let's say for arguments sake... a 1k card can hold 1000 cobble. By that math/logic, a 16k card should be able to hold 16,000 cobble. But based on what I've seen, a 1k card can hold 1000 cobble, and a 16k card can also hold (only) 1000 cobble. When a card that is 4x the size uses pretty much 4x the space for the EXACT SAME ITEMS, something's not quite right.... See what I'm saying?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...



.......you realize you should be complaining to Algorithm, right?

I understand what you're saying, but that's not how it works. It's not how he designed it. It's not how the computer makes sense of the programming. You're wrong, that isn't how it works, and complaining in a random thread on the FTB forums won't change it. Complaining in the minecraft forums thread probably won't either. He's probably seen dozens of people arguing the same thing and decided to keep doing it his way.

The point of the larger cards is to be able to hold MORE STACKS of specific items. If you're just looking for low volume storage for a bunch of items, yeah, go for a low tier. If you have ungodly amounts of stacks of several specific items, go for a high tier.

THIS IS HOW IT WAS DESIGNED. So people are hardcapped at 63 items. Your brain may not want to accept it, but this is the way this mod works. Don't like it? Make your own AE-esque mod.

Arguing about it here won't change it.

quote from the second line of the page I linked (see above and below):

Gunning straight for top tier storage cells, is not generally the best idea, since you use more resources, but don't get any extra type storage.
Click to expand...

http://ae-mod.info/ME-Storage-Math/

don't like it, here's a link to the minecraft forum thread.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic...gistics-rv-13-a-exploiting-quantum-mechanics/

complain directly to him.
 
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Cougar281

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Jul 29, 2019
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Maul_Junior said:
.......you realize you should be complaining to Algorithm, right?

I understand what you're saying, but that's not how it works. It's not how he designed it. It's not how the computer makes sense of the programming. You're wrong, that isn't how it works, and complaining in a random thread on the FTB forums won't change it. Complaining in the minecraft forums thread probably won't either. He's probably seen dozens of people arguing the same thing and decided to keep doing it his way.

The point of the larger cards is to be able to hold MORE STACKS of specific items. If you're just looking for low volume storage for a bunch of items, yeah, go for a low tier. If you have ungodly amounts of stacks of several specific items, go for a high tier.

THIS IS HOW IT WAS DESIGNED. So people are hardcapped at 63 items. Your brain may not want to accept it, but this is the way this mod works. Don't like it? Make your own AE-esque mod.

Arguing about it here won't change it.

quote from the second line of the page I linked (see above and below):



http://ae-mod.info/ME-Storage-Math/

don't like it, here's a link to the minecraft forum thread.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic...gistics-rv-13-a-exploiting-quantum-mechanics/

complain directly to him.
Click to expand...

Dude... did you read ANYTHING I posted? Apparently not.

I KNOW each card, whether 1k or 64k, has a limit of 63 UNIQUE items. That is not what this is about.

Let me make this REAL simple for you: One stack of Cobble (and only one stack of cobble) uses 16 bytes on a 1k, 40 bytes on a 4k, 136 bytes on a 16k card and 520 bytes on a 64k card. Got it?

Why does 'Item X' take up more space on a cell with more space available than one with less available. It's like saying a bucket of water is uses 1000mB in the bucket, but if you put it into a 10 million mB storage tank, it's now going to consume 100,000mB in that tank, but then when you go to use it, you will remove 100,000mB from the tank but will actually only get 1000mB. 8oz of water is still 8oz of water whether it's in a 10oz container or a 3,000oz container. a 1GB file is still 1GB whether it's on a 250GB drive or a 4TB drive. Got it?

I KNOW that different items use different amounts of space on a card.

I KNOW that if I want to store 40k cobble, I need a 16k Cell or higher (in theory).

I KNOW that if I want to store 300 UNIQUE items, I need FIVE ME storage cells, whether 1k in size or 64k in size.

The problem is this (Again, real simple): my 4k card was 58.9% full (2414 of 4096 bytes used). When I transferred its contents over to the 16k card, the 16k card was 51% full (8366 of 16384). I didn't ADD any items. I didn't CHANGE any items. I simply MOVED everything off a single 4k card onto a single 16k card and the 16k card was still over 50% full, just like the 4k card. The 16k card should have been something like 15% full, not 50%.

At any rate, I've posted this info in his thread on MC forum. We'll see what he says.
 
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b0bst3r

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I KNOW that if I want to store 40k cobble, I need a 16k Cell or higher (in theory).
Click to expand...

Noooo you need a DSU, don't use AE for very high storage, although it can do it you'll be using storage chips a lot, a DSU (Deep Storage Unit) can store 2 billion items of a type in 1 block.
 
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Bibble

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Jul 29, 2019
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Cougar281 said:
-snip-
Click to expand...

I think that the point here is twofold:
1. The space used on a card =/= the number of things in it. There is some jiggery-pokery working on the number of item types, and the suchlike.
2. 1 Item =/= 1 byte.

The amount of space currently used on a card is a function of BOTH how many items and how many types are on the card. A portion of this will be the types, and a much smaller portion would be the numbers. If you scale this from one tier to the next, then the proportion of the space used to hold types would remain the same, while the one to hold the number would scale.

I don't know the specifics, but as an example, if you had 80% of the space for types, and 20% for numbers, then a card that is 50% full could be split (45/5). That would mean that if you were to quadruple the number space, while leaving the type space alone, then the percentage would be (45/1.25) making the card 46.25% full, even though the card can hold 4 times as much stuff.

Regardless, this has been explained a few times thus far. It's not a bug, or an issue, it's a design decision. If you wish to take it further, please do so with Algorithm.
 
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PureEvil

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Simply use Deep Storage Units with Storage buses for anything you have more than 30k, let's say dirt, cobble, gravel, wood, scrap and maybe iron, then for rest use 64 or 16k preformatted for ingots, crystals etc and finally use several 4k or 1k discs only for type availability.
 
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Greevir

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Jul 29, 2019
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Cougar281 said:
Dude... did you read ANYTHING I posted? Apparently not.

I KNOW each card, whether 1k or 64k, has a limit of 63 UNIQUE items. That is not what this is about.

Let me make this REAL simple for you: One stack of Cobble (and only one stack of cobble) uses 16 bytes on a 1k, 40 bytes on a 4k, 136 bytes on a 16k card and 520 bytes on a 64k card. Got it?

Why does 'Item X' take up more space on a cell with more space available than one with less available. It's like saying a bucket of water is uses 1000mB in the bucket, but if you put it into a 10 million mB storage tank, it's now going to consume 100,000mB in that tank, but then when you go to use it, you will remove 100,000mB from the tank but will actually only get 1000mB. 8oz of water is still 8oz of water whether it's in a 10oz container or a 3,000oz container. a 1GB file is still 1GB whether it's on a 250GB drive or a 4TB drive. Got it?

I KNOW that different items use different amounts of space on a card.

I KNOW that if I want to store 40k cobble, I need a 16k Cell or higher (in theory).

I KNOW that if I want to store 300 UNIQUE items, I need FIVE ME storage cells, whether 1k in size or 64k in size.

The problem is this (Again, real simple): my 4k card was 58.9% full (2414 of 4096 bytes used). When I transferred its contents over to the 16k card, the 16k card was 51% full (8366 of 16384). I didn't ADD any items. I didn't CHANGE any items. I simply MOVED everything off a single 4k card onto a single 16k card and the 16k card was still over 50% full, just like the 4k card. The 16k card should have been something like 15% full, not 50%.

At any rate, I've posted this info in his thread on MC forum. We'll see what he says.
Click to expand...


He'll probably say this is intended, which it is as has been told to you...

edit: yep, Just as you were told above this is intended.


AlgorithmX2 said:
this is correct, bigger drives requre more bytes per type, see the link for more info.
http://ae-mod.info/ME-Storage-Math/
Click to expand...
 
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Artheos

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Jul 29, 2019
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Cougar281 said:
Uhm... How do you figure Wrong? Let's take this IRL.... If you have a 5MB file on a 100GB drive, does it 'scale up' on a 1TB drive? Nope.

Bottom line: if an item 'costs' 1 byte on a 1k cell, it should 'cost' 1 byte on a 64k cell. If storage capacities 'scale' based on storage cell size, what the hells the point of the larger cells?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

Ok, your real life life example is actually wrong. Larger drives have larger block sizes. There is a minimum amount of drive space even 1 byte will take up. The larger the drive, the larger this block size. This is why you see 2 numbers when you look at the property of a folder in windows. It will show you number of bytes, and then it shows you number of bytes on the drive. There is wasted space.

Example: http://i.imgur.com/qwVCHfB.jpg
 
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