An out of the box approach...

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KirinDave

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Jul 29, 2019
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My immediate thoughts. These are negative, but I am taking your idea seriously and I think it could work.
  1. Gates enable a lot of good automation. Automation no one else can really do effectively. You don't see it too often, but it's there.
  2. Gates enable a lot of "intelligent" systems. Redstone signals for internal state, etc. Unless you add a way to do this, you make every machine a black box that cannot be automated around.
  3. How exactly do you get liquids besides lava into tanks without BC pumps?
If you removed BC from your pack, it'd be making a strong argument for an equally capable item introspection system to actually enable lots of automation. There aren't many. The only one quite as effective that comes to mind is... OpenPeripherals. Which I know you will never-in-a-million-years include.

And when you say "Sockets" do you mean "Engineer's Toolbox"?
 

PeggleFrank

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Jul 29, 2019
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If mods started supporting comparators, then you could fully replace the logic of BC as well.


Also, TC3 has its own quarry and Extra Utilities has it's own filler. Names being the arcane bore and the builder's wand.
 

mushroom taco

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If mods started supporting comparators, then you could fully replace the logic of BC as well.


Also, TC3 has its own quarry and Extra Utilities has it's own filler. Names being the arcane bore and the builder's wand.
Comparators?
Man, i STILL haven't figured out how the heck to use those. They were an out-of-place addition to the simplistic easy-to-understand vanilla redstone.
 

KirinDave

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Comparators?
Man, i STILL haven't figured out how the heck to use those. They were an out-of-place addition to the simplistic easy-to-understand vanilla redstone.


Redstone is a massive elegant system that was desperately lacking 2 components. Comparators fufill most of those functions. The only thing out-of-place is that it's 2 components instead of one.
 

egor66

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If mods started supporting comparators, then you could fully replace the logic of BC as well.


Also, TC3 has its own quarry and Extra Utilities has it's own filler. Names being the arcane bore and the builder's wand.
The TC bore cant really be automated it kills the local aura, yet to see how that changed in new version, the builders wand is only 9 blocks at a time much like the TC shovel can do, or has that changed ?
 

PeggleFrank

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Comparators?
Man, i STILL haven't figured out how the heck to use those. They were an out-of-place addition to the simplistic easy-to-understand vanilla redstone.

Out of place doesn't necessarily mean bad.

They can detect the percentage of an inventory and output a redstone signal from 1 to 15 based upon that percentage. Far more advanced than the BC gates' blunt true or false outputs.


If comparators could detect liquids then they would be more than enough to replace BC gates.
 

gattsuru

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May 25, 2013
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How exactly do you get liquids besides lava into tanks without BC pumps?
ThermalExpansion for water. Forestry for Biomass, Biofuel, Honey. MFR for its dozens of bizarre liquids. Liquiducts from TE to transport... think you only lose oil.
Gates enable a lot of good automation. Automation no one else can really do effectively. You don't see it too often, but it's there.
Gates enable a lot of "intelligent" systems. Redstone signals for internal state, etc. Unless you add a way to do this, you make every machine a black box that cannot be automated around.
AE can actually give you really fine-tune control over this, through storage buses, but that's admittedly not something many people try, and requires multiple AE networks to do sanely. For very low values of sane.

Biggest issue is the loss of control over liquid-based or empty inventory triggers, and the latter only because it's very compact compared to comparator-based solution.
 

mushroom taco

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They can detect the percentage of an inventory and output a redstone signal from 1 to 15 based upon that percentage. Far more advanced than the BC gates' blunt true or false outputs.
Wait, they can?
I'm... completely lost now. Are you talking about vanilla here?
 

Lisranda

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Jul 29, 2019
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I think the idea is definitely viable. I've mostly moved beyond BuildCraft (and RedPower) in my most recent 152ngt world and have the following observations:

1. Item management is handled far better and more precisely using other mods. Even if you were an Applied Energistics purist who didn't want to take advantage of all of the other tools available, you can set up perfectly viable inventory management using a secondary AE network with no interface and only a storage bus on the machine you want to manage with level emitters. Of course, packs that have access to Logistics Pipes makes this even easier. You lose the ability to evaluate several states of inventories for True/False, but my experience was that True/False was cumbersome and always involved building (what is now unnecessary) a backup loop to keep things from falling everywhere. All of that being said, BuildCraft pipes have definite value for some setups. I just haven't needed them to accomplish anything that I haven't been able to think of an alternative for in a while. Well... except for maybe a "Status Board" for a command center that turns a light on or off depending on if the machine is doing work or not. Far and away, the two most important blocks in the BuildCraft catalogue of item management for me are the Void Transport Pipe and Waterproof Void Transport Pipe.

2. Power generation is completely outclassed by other mods. Of the three stock engines, the only one I would really give serious consideration to building is the Redstone Engine -- and that is to power SUPER early game things like a Chest>Wooden Pipe>Void Pipe item destroyer.... which would not be possible in the first place without BuildCraft. The Thermal Expansion steam engine was buffed in the patch that made Conduit and Cells loss-less and it's hard to say it's not the kind of early game MJ production now. Even the Hobbiest Steam Engine doesn't really hold a candle to it anymore. For those people who happen to play with Universal Electricity, the options in Mekanism are also attractive.

3. I was hesitant about the loss of the Pump briefly, but then I considered what I've used it for recently. With Liquiducts and their forced extraction mode, the only liquids I've needed to use a pump for are Lava and Oil. There is now a smoother option for Lava, and Oil is irrelevant without BuildCraft.

4. The loss of the Quarry will hit everyone differently. Does the advanced quarry mod function without BuildCraft? I haven't looked too much into it. Even failing that, people who use IC2 have access to a more cumbersome auto-miner. I'll admit that this is probably the most prominent element of BuildCraft in 152ngt for me. Even then, I'm hoping to eliminate it entirely in my next world -- relying on Mekanism's ore tripling abilities and manual mining to get me to a power state in which I can commission an MFR Mining Laser -- those things are just awesome! Of course, we'd lose the best way to get the laser a clear sight to Bedrock -- the BuildCraft Mining Well.

All things said -- I think it's definitely something that could be done without too many headaches. Of course, the BuildCraft team aren't exactly ignoring the times. Losing BuildCraft also loses the potentially awesome things that might come out of it in the future.... although that doesn't mean you can't install it when you feel like it.
 

mushroom taco

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Jul 29, 2019
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Also to everyone complaining about void pipes:
Railcraft has a void chest that deletes items inside.
Unfortunately it doesn't work with liquids. Maybe we can beg CovertJaguar to add a void tank :p
But seriously, don't beg him for it. Suggest if you want, just don't beg.
 

Lisranda

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Jul 29, 2019
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Also to everyone complaining about void pipes:
Railcraft has a void chest that deletes items inside.
Unfortunately it doesn't work with liquids. Maybe we can beg CovertJaguar to add a void tank :p
But seriously, don't beg him for it. Suggest if you want, just don't beg.

To be fair, Applied Energistics now has options for deleting items as well. And it can be pretty much fully automated.
 

eric167

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Jul 29, 2019
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I think the idea is definitely viable. I've mostly moved beyond BuildCraft (and RedPower) in my most recent 152ngt world and have the following observations:

4. The loss of the Quarry will hit everyone differently. Does the advanced quarry mod function without BuildCraft? I haven't looked too much into it. Even failing that, people who use IC2 have access to a more cumbersome auto-miner. I'll admit that this is probably the most prominent element of BuildCraft in 152ngt for me. Even then, I'm hoping to eliminate it entirely in my next world -- relying on Mekanism's ore tripling abilities and manual mining to get me to a power state in which I can commission an MFR Mining Laser -- those things are just awesome! Of course, we'd lose the best way to get the laser a clear sight to Bedrock -- the BuildCraft Mining Well.

All things said -- I think it's definitely something that could be done without too many headaches. Of course, the BuildCraft team aren't exactly ignoring the times. Losing BuildCraft also loses the potentially awesome things that might come out of it in the future.... although that doesn't mean you can't install it when you feel like it.

i never cared for the quarries, they leave massive holes in the world. only place i would consider them is in oceans.
and you can use the IC2 miner to dig a 1x1 hole to bedrock. just dont put a scanner in it.
and the IC2 miner isnt that cumbersome. put cobble back in, and it fills the hole for you. only thing ive seen it miss so far are the TC3 infused stones. though it will do those correctly if it runs straight into them.
with both setups, you lose out on potential ore increases you can do on silk-touchables.
 

Lisranda

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Jul 29, 2019
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i never cared for the quarries, they leave massive holes in the world. only place i would consider them is in oceans.
and you can use the IC2 miner to dig a 1x1 hole to bedrock. just dont put a scanner in it.
and the IC2 miner isnt that cumbersome. put cobble back in, and it fills the hole for you. only thing ive seen it miss so far are the TC3 infused stones. though it will do those correctly if it runs straight into them.
with both setups, you lose out on potential ore increases you can do on silk-touchables.

I was hesitant to mention the IC2 miner, mostly due to the context. This particular mod pack has already excluded IC2. I suppose in a world without IC2 I would consider using Tinker's Construct tools. It's my personal opinion, for my usage (and this will in no way apply to everyone) that IC2 tools completely outclass TC tools and are themselves completely outclassed by Modular Powersuits. I have no desire for a Fortune auto-smelting pick, that's what I have factories for. I have no desire for an AOE shovel or pick... I found these tools useless in Thaumcraft and it continues now. Not that TC isn't an awesome mod.

Still, I feel for auto-mining, the MFR Mining Laser is positioned in such a good place. It requires a serious power infrastructure, item management system, and an established MFR agricultural system (in order to generate the Pink Slime for the pre-chargers). It's not "first 5 hours in a world" material.
 

Brilliance

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Jul 29, 2019
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To me, buildcraft is an emergency solution until I can get TE conduits and liquiducts running (and recently AE). I'll use it sparingly for items when no alternative presents itself, but I prefer not to. Oil I turn off to avoid the eyesore, and I avoid quarries for the same reason (sure I could use it underground or cover the holes, but I'd still *know*, man...). The assembly table is kind of neat, but I tend to avoid gates as I dislike pointless pipe mazes - Things have got to look snazzy, yo.

The only early game downside I can think of to removing buildcraft is that, as far as I know, combustion engines are the only non-blazerod based engine capable of burning ethanol, as the biogas engine only handles up to biomass. Not a huge deal, but slightly annoying considering the current ease of setting up an MFR biogas reactor + unifier.

assembly line in your pack, but that is a great alternative to buildcraft pipes

I haven't used it myself so I'm not sure, but based on what information I can find, MFR pretty much does most of what assembly line does. Am I wrong in thinking that? I really need to get up to date on the UE mods o_O.

you can use the IC2 miner to dig a 1x1 hole to bedrock

Big fan of the IC2 miner myself, but I feel it deserves mention that the buildcraft mining well (the one nobody uses apart from as a step in building a pump;) ) does exactly that - dig a 1x1 hole to bedrock. Unlike the IC2 one you don't have to supply it with a stack of mining pipe, either.
 

mushroom taco

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Jul 29, 2019
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I haven't used it myself so I'm not sure, but based on what information I can find, MFR pretty much does most of what assembly line does. Am I wrong in thinking that? I really need to get up to date on the UE mods o_O.
I haven't really researched it much, but it looks cool :p
 

KirinDave

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Jul 29, 2019
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AE can actually give you really fine-tune control over this, through storage buses, but that's admittedly not something many people try, and requires multiple AE networks to do sanely. For very low values of sane.

They really can't do things like, "Start producing things when this is below a certain threshold. AE basically has no good automation primitives at anything less than "full throttle."
 

Bellaabzug21

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Jul 29, 2019
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Well this is definitely... new. Things like RedPower and gregTech are easy as pie to cut off, but BuildCraft is one of those things that removing it is like killing a million headed beast. Remove BuildCraft, and you loose a lot of what else you have. Such as AE. From what I understand you've also removed IC2? You'd have to remove AE as well as Thermal Expansion.