Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Solarstrike, Jul 19, 2015.
WE DID IT.
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Now stick them in a pack
I thought that was called Resonant Rise?
I'm actually trying that.
can peoples computers even handle 200+ mods...
I've been able to run 300 one time, and one pack had like, 450 of them.
How many of you think that we should search for a new game that doesn't die with that many mods.
TUG dies with no mods installed.
It is still in heavy development though. I hope it flourishes.
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It worked quite well when I tried it, but it's still alpha. And, you know, no java and no tile entities are a good start afaik.
It was unplayably slow when I tried it recently. Minecraft has better performance out of the gate simply due to being Java (which isn't a bad language), where as TUG relies on a mountain of Lua scripts for every aspect of play. It undoubtedly has its own variation of tile entities as well, because data has to be stored and objects have to be ticked somehow.
They basically took a backwards approach. Mojang made a game that a lot of people love, so people started modding it, and a huge modding community was born. TUG started from the angle of wanting to create a huge modding community, and thought this would create a game people would love. It just doesn't work that way.
Well, I did play it a month ago or so and it ran well for me. But it was a bit boring. It also is way too dark for some reason. Do you have an Intel graphics card? It is also only working on windows atm. It definitely has issues, but they are solvable.
I had to go to the website to read where they are using LUA. They are using it for the Modding API, the rest is programmed in C/C++. I agree that Lua is a bad start to build a game, but as a modding API you can still have the fast C libraries in the background. Modding Interfaces are actually most of the time script languages like LUA - For example The Elder Scrolls programmed their own script languages. Also things like Quests are recommended to program in script languages, because you want to have the possibility to tweak them on the fly. It has definitely more potential than minecraft simply because of the Java VM (not talking about the language, talking about the environment). A virtual machine limits the optimization process, because you don't develop hardware-near. The Java libraries to optimize Java for games are a half-measure. With a VM it's simply not possible to program a well optimized game. There is a reason why nearly no games are using it. Same with the .NET Framework - Magicka uses way too many ressources for what kind of game it is.
Take modded Minecraft and take modded Skyrim. Minecraft will lagg on any computer when you start using machines and stuff in a certain way, even when the mods are programmed well. Skyrim looks better, and runs well if the mods are programmed well. Skyrim even runs okay when you use mods that improve the graphics in a way that it can compete with new games. Do that with Minecraft per resourcepacks with larger textures and it laggs even faster.
That's not true, a majority of the game logic is Lua. Browse through the installation and see for yourself.
Java is capable of using native libraries. LWJGL for example passes OpenGL calls down to the driver layer. This makes Java a perfectly viable platform for accomplishing nearly anything. Minecraft is a very complex game, and performs remarkably well despite that. You have other games like Minetest, written in C++ and Lua, which struggle to do anything.
A lot of games use .NET, since it can similarly interact with native libraries for performance. Terraria is just one of many popular games using it. And Unity is an incredibly popular platform.
Okay yes, I see the scripts and logics. I ask myself where I heard that. I still have problems to find more information about their engine.
No, LWJGL is a half measure. Yes you can use OpenGL, but you still have the chunk of a virtual machine that drags your performance down. How I said, there is a reason why no big game uses Java. It's okay for small games and mobile apps. Never heard of Minetest, if it's bad optimized it doesn't matter what environment you use.
I am really no fan of scripting languages like lua. Not at all. But for a modding API, AI or quest systems, it's okay and partly recommended. I am not big into Elder Scrolls, but I know they use script languages for the mod interface.
It is used when a team doesn't have enough time to build a good Engine based on C++. Sure Terraria runs well, but its a 2D game. Same with java. It's okay for "small" games, when the devs want to spend more time on content and gameplay instead of programmign a C Engine.
I think you should look at benchmarks before making those kinds of claims. Modern Java rivals C++ in a lot of ways, sometimes even beating it.
If Java weren't okay for complex games then Minecraft wouldn't run at 300+ fps. It's that simple.
you mean something like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Java_and_C++#Performance
It says itself that most benchmarks are biased and it depends on what exactly is tested. It shows some pros and cons. The cons of C seam solvable and depends on the dev, while some cons of java seem unsolvable, especially the VM part.
Vanilla Minecraft is not complex at all. And with mods I don't know anyone who runs Infinity at steady 60 fps when you start using the mods even without ressource/texture packs, while skyrim beats it easily even with graphic enhanced mods. The Witcher 3 is a good recent example of a good optimized game, even that it got downgraded. My claim stands that you will never see something like this in Java. Triple-A Games will never run well in Java.
Even Unity is better than Java, but even in Kerbal Space Program people complain about the bad performance, which is based on the Unity Engine.
Real-world benchmarks show that Java matches and beats C++ in many ways, while C++ still outdoes Java in others, particularly where raw horsepower is required (which is generally not a large part of most applications). You don't seem to be aware of the amount of bloat that makes up your average C++ runtime library though, which is generally used by the majority of the logic of an application. Making a side-by-side comparison of the instructions required to perform a single action doesn't say anything about a language at all. The number of instructions differs per CPU architecture and per compiler anyway.
Forge and mods take a game that runs pretty well for what all it does and destroy its performance due to the nature in which they work. FTB destroys it further by making huge kitchen sink modpacks out of those mods. To imply that the mess that is modded Minecraft is a reflection on the performance of Java is absurdity. And Skyrim, which doesn't do anything like what Minecraft does on a per-tick basis, nor does it have the degree of heavy content mods that Minecraft has (and certainly not as many that you'd run all at one time), is no comparison at all.
If you believe that then I don't know why I'm even trying to discuss the subject with you.
These "hurr Java sucks C is better" conversations get old fast. At the end of the day, a carpenter who does everything with one tool is a shitty carpenter.
Okay let's get more subjective here, because I think it's a good time to end the debate. But it was interesting.
Did you only read the Table in the beginning? I was not referring to that at all.
Partly true. While Skyrim mods are more heavy on graphics, physics and RAM, Minecraft mods tend to be more heavy on CPU. Which imho gets even worse because of Java.
Minecraft is still an indie game. Saying that any indie title can get anywhere near the complexity of a Triple-A title seems far from reality to me.
Well, for me the statement is true for the most cases, especially for PC games. It seems to me that Java's popularity gives motivation to many companies who specialize on this language to invent cases where Java is the best choice, so they can market it better. These cases might be true, but IMHO they should stay out with this of the (PC-) gaming industry. There is literally no Triple-A title written in Java, because Triple A needs that extra bit of performance.
I am really no fan of Triple-A, but if there would be one case of Call of Duty, Battlefield, GTA, or any big recent title written in Java, I could understand why someone might think Java isn't so bad for games. But afaik there doesn't exist such a game.
Sounds like you'll need a powerful computer to handle it