Because something that takes more time and effort to produce something in a smaller amount than charcoal should be worth more than it.
1.6.4 Liquid Fuel Boiler fuel changes.
- Thread starter Sarda
- Start date
Because something that takes more time and effort to produce something in a smaller amount than charcoal should be worth more than it.
...and it is, once one apparently gets a decently bred tree.
Granted, this change could have gone over smoother if the sapling/sappiness traits, for instance, had been massaged rather than the fuel energy conversion rate flat-out nerfed by a factor of 4. Perhaps something less severe like a 0.5 nerf and a re-scaling of the sapling/sappiness traits would have been better received. For instance, I would have liked to have seen the standard Apple Oak tree farm produce slightly more energy from ethanol than from charcoal.
But, it is what it is and I view 0.25 nerf as a challenge and a motivator to breed better sapings rather than breeding for fun or vanity.
Granted, this change could have gone over smoother if the sapling/sappiness traits, for instance, had been massaged rather than the fuel energy conversion rate flat-out nerfed by a factor of 4. Perhaps something less severe like a 0.5 nerf and a re-scaling of the sapling/sappiness traits would have been better received. For instance, I would have liked to have seen the standard Apple Oak tree farm produce slightly more energy from ethanol than from charcoal.
But, it is what it is and I view 0.25 nerf as a challenge and a motivator to breed better sapings rather than breeding for fun or vanity.
The amount of infrastructure, time and resources spent on creating a Ethanol farm & distillery or finding, transporting and refining BC Fuel are orders of magnitude above creating charcoal. If anything should have been nerfed it should have been Charcoal, I can make a 36HP Solid Boiler work on a fully self contained closed loop for less then 10MJ. Tell me how that's fair to the 97MJ you need to close loop Ethanol?
This right here is what makes this change work for the small niche. The rest of your post would have been a better solution for a majority of players.
That may well be but how many people do you think will play with them? If someone made a mod that worked pretty much essentially like Forestry did, and Forestry continued to be updated the vast majority of modpacks and probably players would continue to use Forestry. Some people are still unsure on Project Red and thats attempting to rebuild whats essentially a dead mod. If someone rebuilt Forestry, and included the bees and trees, as a remake but with far more powerful fuel and easier breeding a lot of people would get mad. Because while you seem to believe that all these old mods are dying and attempt to speak for the majority, theres still a large number of players and modders building interesting things upon this platform.
You can choose to compare charcoal vs. vanilla saplings. If you frame the debate that way, you are correct.
However, if you choose to compare charcoal vs. bred saplings, bred saplings will yield (far) more MJ per farm area than charcoal, even post-0.25-nerf. Keep in mind that bred saplings do not require squeezer and fermenter scaling, only still scaling, i.e. you can power several 36HPs off of one squeezer and fermenter.
In other words, your 97 MJ/t calculation is for vanilla saplings only.[DOUBLEPOST=1383592527][/DOUBLEPOST]
Heh. By that yardstick, TC4 is a niche mod. It's far more tedious and esoteric than tree breeding.
...I did use bred saplings, I used Willows as per Omicron's. I'm looking at the spreadsheet right now of all the sap values of even the best tree and guess what, It means absolutely nothing. At best you only need 1 multifarm instead of the 2 I did for Willows, you still need a Fermentor, 4 Stills and a Composter and everything else to support those. So you magic super tree is just reducing the MJ cost to 94 instead of 97. Clearly this is the missing piece of the balance puzzle we were looking for!
How does any mod enter into the mainstream? How do they leave it?
If you think I meant an exact replica of Forestry then you weren't reading. Forestry is still popular with the mainstream because most of the recent tweaks haven't hit a large majority of the players yet hence why I stated earlier they are making changes before a vast majority of players are even able to give feedback.
The mods aren't dying they're moving themselves out of the mainstream and into a niche population of the community.
I would be tempted to say if not for the previous incarnations and hope for TC4 that it would be exactly that.
A straight-up willow is of no benefit. Did you cross-breed the willows to pickup the best traits ?
Also, a willow is a great step along the journey, but is not the top rung of the sapling ladder. The biggest single trait boost you'll get is Mahoe sappiness. But, again, a vanilla Mahoe is not any better than a vanilla Apple Oak. You have to cross-breed the traits.
Also, are you using water, or fruit juice/honey ?
Also not sure where your math is 97 vs. 94. 1 MultiFarm with good saplings should power several 36HP (i.e. ~400+ MJ/t) through a single fermenter. Yes, you'll need to spam Stills, but those are cheap, power-wise.
Read the 1st post on the 2nd page, it breaks down the test and where all the MJ comes from to make a closed Ethanol Loop. All your doing with a sappy-ier... sapling is producing more biomass, this is a relatively small portion of the MJ. Through way more work then you'll ever recieve benefit for, yes you can slightly reduce the overall MJ it takes to make the loop but Stills and Composters are the primary MJ consumers in the loop and these do not change much if at all.
You will never get the Ethanol Loop even within even 5x the MJ of what the Charcoal loop costs, it's physically Impossible even if you NEI'd all your Fertilizer so it was never a problem so you could completely cut that out the 50MJ Composters, you still aren't even close to the being comparable to the Charcoal loops MJ cost.
Yeah, they pretty much have nobody who edits the wiki, at all. That thing is quite dead.
IC2 itself dropped the classic branch entirely and started a completely new branch, dubbed "IC2 Experimental". You can see the build history here: http://ic2api.player.to:8080/job/IC2_experimental/changes
If you want to see it in action, have a look at DW20's recent Forgecraft seasons, or hit up a 1.6.x instance. Downloads are on the same site linked above.
- Ore processing got expanded
- Complete e-net rework
- New generators and storage
- Complete UU-matter rework
- Nuclear reactor rework (another one) in progress, with new fuel types and a new GUI
- New upgrades for machines, including self-ejecting capabilities for items and liquids
- Vastly improved construction foam sprayer
- New tools and wearables
- Complete set of new 32x32 textures on everything
- Etc.
That said, I doubt you will like it. If you think Buildcraft & co. are moving into a hardcore direction... oh boy. IC2 got massively more resource/power/time hungry for anything and everything. It's getting to the point where even I call it unplayable outside of a 24/7 server where stuff runs while you're offline. That's pretty much what the mod is being balanced for. And the hilarious part is that, while they got Greg on the team to help out, he hasn't actually done any of those changes. He's just doing API work, ore dictionary integration, backend coding and cleaning up after the other two devs. It's actually sfPlayer and Thunderdark who're pushing for this new direction.
It's still heavily a work in progress, with stuff added and changed on a daily basis, but I won't lie, after all is said and done this mod won't resemble the IC2 that people remember very much anymore. I'll definitely keep it around in my worlds because I just love tinkering with reactors, but it's unlikely to be my starter/progression mod of choice. More like something I'll dip into for the fun of it, and the great advanced nano chestplate from GraviSuite, when I have enough resources lying around later on.
You know it would really make me laugh if Alblaka came and just said "Yeah all this shit you did? Trash it." Seriously I think I would actually fall on the ground laughing.
Alblaka posted on the IC2 forums as recently as June 25th, but nothing to do with IC2 at all... that was just a little over one month before work on the experimental branch started. That leads me to believe that he's no longer involved or interested, simply signed the mod over to the others and finally rescinded the "no new features without me!" deadlock order that was the main reason why IC2 remained as stale as it did for so long.
And could he still not just say "I hate this new stuff; try again"? Though I guess catering to a smaller audience is better than having the whole audience taken away.
Playing with IC2 Experimental and generally not impressed, the kindest thing I can say about it is "The textures on the machines look nicer." that's about it, so much background noise too from everything nothing but noise. We had our BC fuel ratios nerfed for this? Just put IC2 in the gregtech only pack there the only ones who'd honestly want any of this and leave the BC fuel ratios alone.
As long as the fuel values are configurable, and remain so, I wouldn't care less. I'll revert the config changes every single time. If the config option gets taken away, stuff it. TE3, TiCo, Factorization, UE/Mekanism an co are ready to take the spotlight by storm.
I really really hope TE3 isn't apart of this balance deal. I could only Imagine how shit Magmatic Engines would be under this, IC2 Geothermals were cut to like 1/10 burn time per lava bucket I don't want to see that spread.
I have to disagree about BC. I think the latest changes have made it more relevant. Having lossless energy transmission has made me go back to kinetic pipes over energy conduits. I can get them much earlier and they work so well, I end up keeping them. I never used them before the changes. I know there are other pipe systems as well, such as logistics pipes, but BC pipes and gates do things nothing else can. The amount of new conditions they have added to the gates makes them amazing. BC fills in many of the holes left by RP for item transport long before you can make routers, AE networks, tesseracts, or ender chest/tanks. I can't imagine early automation without BC.
EnderIO's first tier of conduits is pretty cheap to make. (lossless, 128 MJ, needs only some iron and redstone)
Extra Utility's Transfer Pipes are fantastic. Item, liquid and energy transfer. And you can sort/filter with them as well.
Leaves BC's gates. But for these you need an assembly table, which means a fairly good infra structure already. And most of the time the gates are simply used for powering liquid pipes, which can be done more elegantly with (you guessed it) EnderIO's Redstone Switches.
You always repeat the same thing : "I hate these changes, they're for a niche". But do you have actual evidence on what you say ? And don't you have better arguments ? Honestly, from an objective point, it just seems like you're having a bad time with the mod changes.
You should just chill out and go play with other mods. If you hate the BC family and IC2 so much, you shouldn't care about what they become. Besides, Alblaka probably doesn't care about the mod anymore and went on with his life, soooo...
PS : calling changes "shit" isn't right. You don't like them, but that doesn't mean they are shit. Obviously a lot of people here either like it, or deal with it, changing their habits. Refreshing ways to play FTB is a good thing in my opinion