[0.12.0] 1.7.10: Technomancy Discussion Thread

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Zsashas

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Direct copy and paste from Vazkii's site:
Liquid/Fluid Mana
Here’s another perfect trainwreck.
Let’s remove the whole purpose and depth of the mana transport system and replace it with streamlined pipes and tanks and fourth dimension teleportation devices, sounds good! I’m not going to bother commenting on this one, it should be painstakingly obvious.


Also I don't recall ever seeing or hearing anyone from Mojang say that they didn't want anything to do with those features(wands, multi-use potions, etc. If I'm wrong, please prove me so.
 

Mordenkainen

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Well again that quote says Vazkii won't do it. It does not prohibit other mod authors from doing so.

Vazkii will not add fluid mana because it would detract from the system he/she developed for transporting mana within that mod... Sure, I get that... Just like you don't see azanor adding alternate methods of essentia transport since it detracts from the tube system. But I also don't see him complaining about Thaumic Pipes or Thaumic Energistics.

If a mod dev explicitly does not want anyone to do a particular thing with a mod they provide an api for they need to explicitly state that it is not allowed, like azanor and the rotarycraft dev have done.
 
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Rebirth Gaming

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Direct copy and paste from Vazkii's site:
Liquid/Fluid Mana
Here’s another perfect trainwreck.
Let’s remove the whole purpose and depth of the mana transport system and replace it with streamlined pipes and tanks and fourth dimension teleportation devices, sounds good! I’m not going to bother commenting on this one, it should be painstakingly obvious.


Also I don't recall ever seeing or hearing anyone from Mojang say that they didn't want anything to do with those features(wands, multi-use potions, etc. If I'm wrong, please prove me so.

If mod authors TRULY didn't want anyone to create mods that added features that went against their mod's design intents, then they would keep their mods closed source and not develop APIs for them.

When a mod developer opens their mod and makes an API, they understand that this will allow ANYONE to create pretty much any mod that does thing with their mod, whether it fits the mod author's original design intent or not.

If you, as a modpack developer, don't like certain features in mod addons, such as Technomancy, then here's an idea: don't add the mod to your pack. And if you like one particular item or feature in a mod, then add the mod to your pack and disable everything but that one item. That's why configs and minetweaker exist.

If Vazkii truly has a problem with Technomancy's fluid mana system, then so what. If it's really that big of a deal, then he should just close that part of the API/code. But he didn't, and because he developed his mod in a way where mana can be manipulated by other mods, then he realizes that people could potentially develop mods that do things to Botania that he doesn't like. Not accepting this fact would be naive.

That is why the modding community is just that - a community. It is up to mod developers to communicate with each other on good terms to help find balance between mods and their addons. It is also up to modpack developers to provide heavy feedback to mod authors, and the authors of those mod's addons, to help find an agreeable balance. Furthermore, it is up to modpack developers to create a pack that is well designed. Or, they could not, and just create a pack where you can mine stacks of diamonds within the first hour of playing, resulting in a gameplay experience that causes you to get bored within a few days.

With that being said, I personally like the idea of liquid mana, but only because it actually fits into my modpack's design.

From my personal experience on my modpack, even without liquid mana, I have noticed that players actually tend NOT to use Botania for anything other than grabbing the artifacts and baubles. I would really love to see players use Botania for things like accelerated crop growth, inventory management, material production, etc.

But they don't, and that's because the vanilla mana transportation method is cumbersome on modpacks, especially when players have factories, farms, etc. that cover large areas. They would much rather, for example, slap down a ritual of the green grove, or use vacuum hoppers. With fluid mana, I feel like that more players would actually use Botania for something useful/integral in their factories and farms. I for one certainly would. Setting up mana spreaders to move mana from my central mana production area to each of my farms for agricarnations is, imo, more cumbersome than going through the trouble of making some lilypads of fertility and setting up openblock sprinklers.

However, I already have a ME network setup to run to each part of my factory. If I were able to pass mana through my ME network (thanks, extra cells), then I could much more easily use Botania to help speed up crop growth.

If I, at any point, feel that liquid mana makes Botania *too easy*, then it is up to me to A) communicate with the Technomancy devs to help find a balance or B) use the provided configs to set my own balance. Technomancy already includes config options for the mana and blood fabricators, so I imagine there will also be one for this item as well. And believe me when I say that mana and blood fabricators, by default, are pretty damn expensive in terms of power (RF) to run. With my machines and 2 mana fabricators, my 17x17x17 big reactor with 4 ludicrite turbines were *barely* keeping up.

TL;Dr when you make a mod and throw it into a modpack, your results may vary. Stop being lazy and use configs to balance your pack.
 
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Mordenkainen

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Fyi... it costs 1000RF per millibucket (1000 mana) to convert mana to fluid. So that is 1,000,000RF per bucket! And it costs the same to convert it back. This is of course configurable. But it was set this high on purpose to offset the sheer overpoweredness of the feature. 2,000,000 RF per bucket... and if using it with AE/Extracells, add in the cost to import 1000mb of fluid (one mb at a time because that is what the exchanger does), the cost to export it, and the cost to actually transport that fluid through the network.

Yes its overpowered, and yes it may not be what the original mod author envisioned, but its not cheap and not the type of thing you can use to casually throw away the Botania mana system with.
 

TomeWyrm

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From my personal experience on my modpack, even without liquid mana, I have noticed that players actually tend NOT to use Botania for anything other than grabbing the artifacts and baubles. I would really love to see players use Botania for things like accelerated crop growth, inventory management, material production, etc.
I do! I acutally use botania as the backbone "tech" mod for basically every build I make now... unless it requires fluid/energy/item transport, then it's EIO or Thermal Dynamics for those. But I use the munchdews to use up my saplings from automated farms, I generate my clay via botania, I like the brews, I prefer the terra shatterer as my main pick, the black hole... talisman? Thingy... is awesome. I haven't even touched half of Botania and I've liked everything I've seen thus far.

It is HORRIBLY underutilized, and amazingly well balanced... assuming your sense of balance isn't TerraFirmaCraft/Gregtech/BetterThanWolves. It melds into so many other mods in neat ways, and has unique methods of accomplishing most everything.

Heh, a million RF. I remember when that was a lot. Then I found ReactorCraft and every other mod's power requirements are laughable... except maybe Draconic Evolution, and even then they're not in the same ballpark. Exponential growth is FUN.
 
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theflogat

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I do! I acutally use botania as the backbone "tech" mod for basically every build I make now... unless it requires fluid/energy/item transport, then it's EIO or Thermal Dynamics for those. But I use the munchdews to use up my saplings from automated farms, I generate my clay via botania, I like the brews, I prefer the terra shatterer as my main pick, the black hole... talisman? Thingy... is awesome. I haven't even touched half of Botania and I've liked everything I've seen thus far.

It is HORRIBLY underutilized, and amazingly well balanced... assuming your sense of balance isn't TerraFirmaCraft/Gregtech/BetterThanWolves. It melds into so many other mods in neat ways, and has unique methods of accomplishing most everything.

Heh, a million RF. I remember when that was a lot. Then I found ReactorCraft and every other mod's power requirements are laughable... except maybe Draconic Evolution, and even then they're not in the same ballpark. Exponential growth is FUN.

If you think it's too cheap, by all means make it more expensive. There is an option in the config.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Mordenkainen

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Actually, I'm a big fan of Botania as well. But, while I appreciate all the work that went into it's mana system, I do not like that is does not scale to very large or multidimensional bases. It also does not offer large scale storage of Mana unless you spam Mana pools.

The Mana Exchanger was my attempt to deal with these shortcomings. A single bucket of mana represents a full Mana Pools worth of mana. This resolves the large scale storage, allowing me to offload storage of Mana to drums or AE. Being able to convert the mana to a fluid also resolves the issues with large, multidimensional bases, because if I need the mana to go 500 blocks away, or to the Nether, I can easily do that with the fluid. Of course I have to deal with the fairly high cost associated with this.

@TomeWyrm, yeah reactorcraft often eliminates any concern of RF costs. That is part of the reason all of these costs are configurable. If you have reactorcraft on the server, you may want to crank some of them up.
 

TomeWyrm

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That actually wasn't the point I was making, and I'm aware it is configurable. The configurability is something I like a lot about Technomancy. It was more a commentary on how balance is an evershifting target that I basically quit worrying about a long time ago. As long as the effort required to do something isn't obscenely less for one option, it's all fine. Also a commentary on the pure distilled awesome that is Botania.

By the point I can make that millions of RF/t... I can make everything in botania or blood magic that I really care about via standard methods. Everything in the mod that isn't obscenely exorbitantly priced really, like the SS Terra Shatterer. Which at those rates would be... 1,111,000,000,000 RF from rank D. One trillion RF, or 1.111 TeraRF. You'd actually run into more issues USING that much mana. I have managed to overload a mana pool's item transfer rate with input before. Kekimurus are insane, as are Rosa Arcana when you've got EnderIO. Possibly some of the later-game orbs and rituals like the demon summoning from Blood Magic. I'm actually all for the conversion rate being at default. I mean if you don't like the native methods of botania generation enough to build a mid-tier reactorcraft nuclear reactor or an obscene BigReactor to power your Botania/BM stuff? More power too you. That's the beauty of modern modding to me. Cross-mod interactions. Someone has powered their base off of the complete utilization of chickens (feathers, eggs, and meat). Who am I to say that running your magic flowers off of a nuclear reactor is somehow wrong? All the lets me do is let my focus on one area of modded minecraft actually help me in another. Something that drove me insane back in... 1.4.7? When did we start getting true ore dictionary utilization and mods that processed other mods recipes? Whenever that was it was a glorious day.

In other words, keep being OP. OP is awesome.
 

Whichy

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Jul 29, 2019
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Same thing the essentia coil does, for items,

Yea, I thought so, but I can't figure out how to use it. Any ideas for a basic setup?!?

AS for the botanical purifier. Just how much man is it supposed to consume for 1 purifying cycle? I have 128 floating hydrogeas set up, all the way down to bedrock. They fill up my mana pools nicely. But the botanical purifier? It's like snail speed purifiyng with 128 hydrogeas... the fuck?!
 

Mordenkainen

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Yea, I thought so, but I can't figure out how to use it. Any ideas for a basic setup?!?

AS for the botanical purifier. Just how much man is it supposed to consume for 1 purifying cycle? I have 128 floating hydrogeas set up, all the way down to bedrock. They fill up my mana pools nicely. But the botanical purifier? It's like snail speed purifiyng with 128 hydrogeas... the fuck?!
Coil:
Plop it on an inventory. Right click on it with a coil coupler. Shift right click on another inventory. All items from the linked inventory will be transferred to the inventory the coil is on. It can also be filtered for a specific item by clicking on the coil with an item. There is more to it, but that is the "basic" setup.

Purifier:
The ore processing machines take a ton of "fuel" to run. In the cace of the purifier, for the ore -> single purified pass it takes 90,000 mana per ore. So a completely full mana pool can process 11.1 ores before running dry. It takes 3 seconds (with no lag) to process an ore if the purifier is supplied with the required mana, it takes 1500 mana per tick to keep it "supplied".

You are placing it a few blocks away from a mana pool correct? You can shoot mana bursts into it, but that is much slower.
 
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Mordenkainen

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Not exactly, this is my setup: http://i.imgur.com/tjSzxIl.jpg

Right now I have about 200 hydrogeas generating mana, shooting into the mana spreader. The purifier does like 2% progress each 5 seconds or so, according to WAILA. Damn....that's slow....

So with that setup, the Mana distributor is doing nothing for you. In fact it is hurting you. The purifier absorbs mana in 1500 mana increments. Because you are splitting the mana between 4 pools, it is taking longer for any given pool to hit the 1500 mark. This means it takes ~4 times longer for the purifier to actually "find" enough mana to absorb, but when it does it will absorb all of it.

Both the Dynamo and the Purifier will draw from mana pools within 4 blocks in any direction. so they both are pulling from all those mana pools.

They also both have an internal storage which they will draw mana to fill even if they are not doing anything. The Purifier will hold a full mana pools worth, and the dynamo will hold 1/10th of a mana pool.

Also, you are using normal mana spreaders, which can only handle ~24 hydrogengas each. so not all the mana you are producing is making it to the pools.

So, with that setup, you would need to produce ~6000 mana per tick to keep up with the purifier. your existing system simply can not do that! Actually, not many can without being much larger, using different flowers, and using upgraded spreaders.
 
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TomeWyrm

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For the love of Vazkii and Notch, there are better methods of mana transfer!
If you can manage it? Don't ever let a mana spreader shoot a burst any distance. Use sparks whenever possible as well (though that is elven tech to make them truly useful mana distribution tools). If you need to transfer long distances for whatever reason, use the Force Relay and warp lens.

The reason? Bursts only fire again when there are no other bursts in travel from that spreader. Which means your mana throughput with a spreader is always Mana Per Burst divided by Travel Time. With a decent distance on a normal mana spreader? That is REALLY REALLY REALLY slow!
 

TomeWyrm

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If you have a penchant for insanity, the kekimurus is probably your best generating flower. It CAN be fully automated with nothing but Botania. Have fun, it's one of the more complex builds and supplying the raw materials can be a bit of a pain without certain farming mods. Or a certain addon to another really popular magic mod.

If you're a little less crazy you can make the endoflame a very impressive mana generator indeed (assuming you've got a good combustible material farm method).

Of if you have ChromatiCraft? The Rosa Arcana is sick with the Zambarau potion crystals. Like... stupid sick.
 

Mordenkainen

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http://minecraft.curseforge.com/mc-mods/229912-technomancy/files

New Technomancy version. Next will be a full release.

So since I think the changes merit it, here is a bit of a changelog for this release:
  • Added Essentia Fusor, a machine that can recombine Essentia
  • Node Fabricator can now be rotated by sneak Right-Clicking it with any wrench (or the Technoturges Scepter ;) ) (The ability to rotate was added in last release, but not really mentioned)
  • Fixed a bug where many of the blocks could be used to turn Gunpowder into Redstone
  • Fixed Node Fabricator not saving it's redstone settings
  • Fixed Node Fabricator working even if it's partner was facing the wrong way
  • Fixed several issues that may prevent crashes when interacting with the "extra" blocks that make up the Node Fabricator
  • Node fabricator can have it's redstone setting changed from any of it's blocks
  • Node Fabricator can be rotated from any of it's blocks
  • Cleanup of Thaumonomicon and Lexicon entries
  • Fixed Essentia and Item Coil rendering
  • Fixed Essentia and Item coils placing "backward"
  • Fixed "flickering" when rotating Node Fabricator
  • Fixed Mekanisim compatibility on servers
  • Fixed crashes when breaking blocks if Thaumcraft is not loaded
  • Fixed several issues with the Item Coil if Thaumcraft is not loaded
  • Fixes rotating item coil with a wrench taking the wrench as a filter instead (and Redstone, Redstone Torch, gunpowder, and the Potency Gem)
  • Fixed issue where adding or removing a potency Gem caused Coils to rotate momentarily
  • Fixed crash in ICouplable when Thaumcraft was not loaded
  • Upgraded Item and Essentia Coils no longer deactivate themselves due to redstone output. When the Potency Gem is used on a coil, the coil is switched to ignore redstone, and if modified with an item, the item is dropped. Further attempts to modify the redstone behavior are ignored. When Potency Gem is removed, coil is returned to requiring a "Low" redstone signal to function, and redstone modifying items can be used again.
  • Descriptions on Light and Dark crystals were reversed.
  • Waila tooltips did not function if some mods were not loaded. Waila should now show tooltips for blocks for blocks even if all mods are not active.
  • Clearing the filter on the Item Coil did not properly sync from server to client.
  • Rendering of "rings" on coils changed. Top ring will be red if coil is "boosted". Bottom ring is used to indicate if the coil is filtered.
  • Tooltip Info for items cleaned up a little
  • Fixed exception when reading item info for blocks that have a tank with no fluid/fluid type in it.
  • Fixed syncing of blood tank content from server -> client for Blood Dynamo
  • Fixed "flickering" block on rotation of Dynamos
  • Added logging of Thaumcraft module loading success/failure
  • Added Logging for Botaina module init
  • Fixed bucket picking up water instead of Mana Condensate when used on a Mana Condensate block
  • Added ability to rotate Mana Fabricator with a wrench
  • Added both charged and uncharged wand and scepter to creative menu
  • Electric Bellows now cause Essentia to funnel into Alembics faster as if Alumentum had been used as fuel
  • Fixed syncing of inventory in GUI on the "Processors"

Lots of fixes and some new functionality, so I figured a changelog would be helpful.
Also, something that had been mentioned, but I don't think was real clear. Technomancy no longer has ANY mod dependencies. It will function (in a very limited way) even with no other mods loaded. So, contrary to what the OP says, it does NOT require COFHCore.

Morden
 
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Mordenkainen

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theflogat has asked me to make this weeks Technomancy release.

So I am pleased to present Technomancy 0.11.0!

This is a full release, please let us know if you find any issues!
Even though this release was not posted by theflogat, it is an official build and is fully supported.

Download:
http://minecraft.curseforge.com/mc-mods/229912-technomancy/files/2241730/download

Changelog:
0.11.0 Release:
  • Fixes several errors when displaying stored settings on items
  • Fixes issue where Node Fabricators did not create the "extra" blocks that fill their structure
  • Fixes an issue where the Node Fabricator did not always save it's data when broken
  • Fixed a couple of issues where blocks were not checked if they were valid before accessing them, causing errors
  • Fixed an issue with rituals that caused an error if activated by Redstone
  • Fixed Node Fabricator not properly obeying Redstone settings
  • Fixed Node Fabricator only accepting Redstone on its "main" block
  • Updated info in "Mods" display
  • Added Logo
 

Mordenkainen

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We have just had a Chinese language translation submitted, but.... I don't speak Chinese so can not proofread the change. If there are any English and Chinese speaking users who would be willing to take a look, please look at the following changes and comment on the pull request if it looks good or you see any issues:
English file: https://github.com/theflogat/Techno...main/resources/assets/technom/lang/en_US.lang
Chinese file: https://github.com/PatchouliHina/Te...main/resources/assets/technom/lang/zh_CN.lang
Pull Request: https://github.com/theflogat/Technomancy/pull/110

As a side note, anyone who wants to submit additional translations, please feel free to do so. The more languages the better!