The Magmatic Engine

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Zandorum

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"Sterling engine is op. Once you et to the stage where you can farm wood, you might as well just build 1000 of them."

That is the problem with that argument. The main reason to move on is because it would be fun to do so.


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Yes but you actually had to make the resource to power it, you don't have to make the resource for the Magmatics. Also RF doesn't have Solar Panels and I've avoided using the Electric Engine from Forestry for that reason. I'm fine with Solar Panels however due to me using Gregtech in conjunction with Industrialcraft but the last time I even really touched Industrialcraft or Gregtech was 1.4.7 so I'm unsure how Gregtech has evolved (assuming Industrialcraft hasn't however I may be wrong, I do know that UU matter changed however).

In all honesty this thread falls under the 'solar panels are op' category- shit like that is the reason we can't have/keep nice things.
Such as that stupidity with changing the redstone engine mechanics, and 'ooh look! the filler is a free quarry!- see how fast it digs!!' {when attached to an energy cell}​
I'm actually personally upset about the Energy Cells in general, When Thermal Expansion was a MJ powered mod I avoided it because It allowed you to store MJ's because the whole power system seemed like it was balanced around not being able to store the power. RF is just MJ x10 with Storeable power which I just find completely unbalanced in itself, something else should be introduced (Not saying replace RF, Not saying a alternative to RF either) but not into the Main RF setup, for people like me. Industrialcraft has Transformers and Limits to the Cables which I feel is IC2's way of doing it. Buildcraft had Overloading Pipes at one point in time and I feel like that was a step towards how it should have been.
 
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Jess887cp

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Yes but you actually had to make the resource to power it, you don't have to make the resource for the Magmatics. Also RF doesn't have Solar Panels and I've avoided using the Electric Engine from Forestry for that reason. I'm fine with Solar Panels however due to me using Gregtech in conjunction with Industrialcraft but the last time I even really touched Industrialcraft or Gregtech was 1.4.7 so I'm unsure how Gregtech has evolved (assuming Industrialcraft hasn't however I may be wrong, I do know that UU matter changed however).
Generally in response to that is have to point out that tree farms are often easier than the nether, but I concede the point.




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Zandorum

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generally in response to that is have to point out that tree farms are often easier than the nether, but I concede the point.




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You can't deny that the default 80RF/t that is also Upgradable I might add is much more efficient due to not having to wait for your Tree Chopping Automation to finish. Yes if you do have a backup it does workout pretty well which does eventually happen but if your building on the Scale that I do you'd need many more Tree Farms and this would take less time and less resources to build than that.
 
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Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
The vanilla IC2 panels and UU system was actually very well balanced- getting a significant amount of UUM actually involved building a high output reactor, and generally required a lot of effort to get there.
Likewise the solar panels actually required a decent amount of space and setting up to run a base. Also you had a noticeable loss of efficiency thanks to energy loss in the wires.
Compact solars threw them both out of whack by having the same material cost- but significantly reducing the space and infrastructure, which massively buffs the efficiency to well beyond an array of individual panels.

I'm actually personally upset about the Energy Cells in general, When Thermal Expansion was a MJ powered mod I avoided it because It allowed you to store MJ's because the whole power system seemed like it was balanced around not being able to store the power. RF is just MJ x10 with Storeable power which I just find completely unbalanced in itself, something else should be introduced (Not saying replace RF, Not saying a alternative to RF either) but not into the Main RF setup, for people like me. Industrialcraft has Transformers and Limits to the Cables which I feel is IC2's way of doing it. Buildcraft had Overloading Pipes at one point in time and I feel like that was a step towards how it should have been.

A lot of the Buildcraft mod family is set around designing factories/systems that run continuously over a long time- and setting/controlling engine output to match. (The top tier engine had a low output, but ran for hours on end). Having a power storage unit like that kinda throws a spanner in the works.

Overloading pipes, filler change, and quarry change were a series of bad design decisions which happened as a result of other mod stuff.
Pipes- so players would use the significantly more expensive and difficult to craft conduits. [remember TE machines would run off BC pipes]
Filler- its a "free quarry" [ignoring the fact that its very impractical as a quarry- unless you plug it into a high power output, like an energy cell- even then you're picking up stuff.]
Quarry- trying to compete with redpower.​
Source- watch Dire's forgecraft videos from that era. [early mc r1.4]
 

Zandorum

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Having a power storage unit like that kinda throws a spanner in the works.
If you could do something about it what would you do other than removing power storage all together or changing the way power is stored so nothing is interrupted? If anyone has a good idea about this I'm completely able to fill this need myself; I just need a good way to go about it first.
 

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
I can see a couple of options for it;
-no "power" storage being one. So if you run an engine the power goes somewhere or its wasted [you can 'recycle' excess power into lava then feed a magmatic later]

Though have lossy power storage also sounds appealing- with MJ batteries leaking a % of their charge each tick, the longer its stored the more you waste; which keeps with the whole theme of continuous running/usage.
So 10,000MJ in a battery would lose around 20MJ/second- about 0.01%/tick
[in comparison a fully charged leadstone capacitor would leak 8rf/tick]​
 
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Jess887cp

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I can see a couple of options for it;
-no "power" storage being one. So if you run an engine the power goes somewhere or its wasted [you can 'recycle' excess power into lava then feed a magmatic later]

Though have lossy power storage also sounds appealing- with MJ batteries leaking a % of their charge each tick, the longer its stored the more you waste; which keeps with the whole theme of continuous running/usage.
So 10,000MJ in a battery would lose around 20MJ/second- about 0.01%/tick
[in comparison a fully charged leadstone capacitor would leak 8rf/tick]​
Ooh. I like the idea, but it would drive me batty if implemented. I like everything to be full, all the time. I have capacitor banks that do NOTHING but look pretty and store loads of power.
 

Skyqula

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The entire problem is cross mod interaction here, nothing else. And even then, I consider the steam dynamo to be the strongest. Why? Because thats the one that can be powered with charcoal/planks(/steam for cross mod interactions!). It means all you need is a tree farm. No additional dimensions needed. And since we are going for infinite power, yes, Big Reactors + MFR laser drill wins. No lag, selfsustaining, doesnt destroy the world, doesnt need alternative dimensions to be loaded or even created.

I will agree that the flat 80RF/t output of all TE engines - outpacing any of its predecessors (which peak at the 60RF/t Combustion Engine) at that - is a problem, but it is a stretch to call the magmatic engine "overpowered".

Railcrafts Industrial steam engine, MFR's biofuel generator and dartcrafts force engine would like a word with you. 8 MJ/t or 80 RF/t was pretty much the standard already.
 

Skyqula

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None of those are entry-level, nor are they as set-and-forget as TE engines.

Uhm... what? The cost of a force engine or biofuel generator is nothing different then a TE dynamo. Granted, the steam engines require a previous engine, but its hardly going to stop annyone rushing it. And who has engines running 24/7 without them actually being required to run 24/7? Especially early game? You plop just about the amount of fuel in you expect to be using. The self throthling down mechanic realy is nothing special and very, very overrated.
 

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
Ooh. I like the idea, but it would drive me batty if implemented. I like everything to be full, all the time. I have capacitor banks that do NOTHING but look pretty and store loads of power.

Then have an [in this case 8] rf supply feeding that capacitor.
(saying that- since TE engines throttle themselves you won't have any issues)

The throttling mechanic also takes away a lot of the creativity and design in using engines- which I why I personally don't like them.
 

Zandorum

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Though have lossy power storage also sounds appealing- with MJ batteries leaking a % of their charge each tick, the longer its stored the more you waste; which keeps with the whole theme of continuous running/usage.
So 10,000MJ in a battery would lose around 20MJ/second- about 0.01%/tick
[in comparison a fully charged leadstone capacitor would leak 8rf/tick]​
I'll see what I can do to make this happen without adding new blocks (I intend to make this a patch for Thermal and Ender IO as they are the two most popular mods with Power Storage that I can think of, However I will be needing to ask permission to do this I believe; I am unsure of this). I will get on this after I have finished or abandon the Fool's Equipment (Dependent on community interest in the mod) as I'm interested in this as I enjoy this solution alot.

Uhm... what? The cost of a force engine or biofuel generator is nothing different then a TE dynamo. Granted, the steam engines require a previous engine, but its hardly going to stop annyone rushing it. And who has engines running 24/7 without them actually being required to run 24/7? Especially early game? You plop just about the amount of fuel in you expect to be using. The self throthling down mechanic realy is nothing special and very, very overrated.
Dartcraft is well Dartcraft, its a trope at this point but the Biofuel generator takes time to setup where as the Thermal Expansion Dynamos are easy to get, setup and forget; where all the others weren't as well as the tier progression in Buildcraft was taken into account where in Thermal Expansion there is no progression only multiple Dynamos all in the same Tier (High Tier I might add, Don't say Big Reactors because Big Reactors produces a gross amount of power in the first place) with different ways of fueling them. This also comes down to power storage problem once again which were already talking about so... I guess your caught up now... I hope. TL;DR read what original poster and other people are saying after the initial post then comment.
 
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Skyqula

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Dartcraft is well Dartcraft

Uhm, what? the force engine is well in line with buildcraft progression. Its more expensive and works similar to the combustion engine. The thing your probably have a problem with is that Buildcrafts progression is flatter then vanilla tools. Wich is completly fine.

its a trope at this point but the Biofuel generator takes time to setup where as the Thermal Expansion Dynamos are easy to get, setup and forget;

This is overselling TE dynamo's. Biofuel is just as easy to get going. That village you found early on? With those wheat/potato/carrot farms? some extra saplings from chopping down trees? Its easy to sustain. Maybe you are confused with forestry?

where all the others weren't as well as the tier progression in Buildcraft was taken into account where in Thermal Expansion there is no progression only multiple Dynamos all in the same Tier (High Tier I might add) with different ways of fueling them.

You realise that BC engines are cobblestone + a piston, right? TE dynamo's arent cheap in comparison. And instead of making you spam 4 engines just to get 1(!) machine going, it saves on lag and makes you build a single much more expensive engine. Soooo broken right? Or wait, it makes complete sense gameplay wise. Who would have thought that a mod that started as an addon to BC actually expands on its tier system?

TL;DR read what original poster and other people are saying after the initial post then comment.

I have and I dont agree. Lava power is not a problem at all. Its a valid option, but its far from broken with just TE itself. Even adding a pump doesnt make it broken, you also need a chunkloader(arguably the strongest "device" one can have). And then you also need to eventually move it. You want to use a mystcraft age? Well GG, that mod is so far from balanced is not even funny (yes, I consider Dartcraft balanced, so in your eyes that should say something). Wich brings me to my original point: "The entire problem is cross mod interaction here, nothing else."

Besides, even playing something like TPPI, lava power is a decent mid game power source, but its a complete dead end. Its not the way to go for powering laser drills, thats why I mentioned: "Big Reactors + MFR laser drill wins. No lag, selfsustaining, doesnt destroy the world, doesnt need alternative dimensions to be loaded or even created." And even all that considered, I would skip the magma step entirely and go with: "I consider the steam dynamo to be the strongest. Why? Because thats the one that can be powered with charcoal/planks". Tree farms are easy to setup, require only a freaction of the fuel they supply and can be expanded in multiple ways: Bigger, different trees(more wood per tree, more saplings for biofuel diversity), dynamo upgrades or boilers(if you plan to use steam for other power sources), fertilizer, lamp of growth and TiC lumber axes with fortune + autosmelting in autonomous activators/dynamism tablets (hello double fuel output). They are cheap to start with, can be upgraded with just about every path you choose and can reach that selfsustaining aswell as power production requirement for a laser drill and then some. The problem with tree farms however is lag, they are simply not as TPS friendly as a reactor + turbine(s). Another point in favor of tree farm over lava power, steam dynamo's dont use iron. Where as magmatic dynamo's do, after all to make invar you need iron + ferrous. That iron is better used making steel and getting that big reactor going.

Heck, if annything, lava power could use some new mechanics to spice things up. Though probably not as a power source. As it stands, lava power is just a time and resource wasting detour.
 
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Zandorum

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I guess I'll just buckle on this one because after thinking about it its less the Magmatic Engine more the power system it self having no downsides to mass power production, movement and storage. In short the "patch" I will hopefully be making (If I get the permission to) that will not be apart of the base mod obviously will fix this issue. Any objections to this as a note? I feel it's just a nice way to make power production matter more.
 

Skyqula

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I guess I'll just buckle on this one because after thinking about it its less the Magmatic Engine more the power system it self having no downsides to mass power production, movement and storage. In short the "patch" I will hopefully be making (If I get the permission to) that will not be apart of the base mod obviously will fix this issue. Any objections to this as a note? I feel it's just a nice way to make power production matter more.

Have you tried BC pipes now? They have a low extraction/transfer limit and have loss build in. Extracting and transfering high amounts of power that way is... whats the word, tedious? Without TE that also means no energy storage, might be what you are looking for?
 

Eruantien

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I think it depends on how much effort you want to (or can) put into making a self-sustaining system. During the early-game, things like magmatic engines or solar cells are good because they're set-and-forget machines, that you can just plop down here and there while you're living in a hole, on a mountainside, or whatnot.
Whereas in the later game, when you have a more planned environment to build things in and plenty more resources, and when these basic machines start to not produce enough power and all, you can start to move into the more advanced methods of power generation, like alumentum, steam, reactors and all that.
 

buggirlexpres

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I feel as though it should have a lower power output or a higher consumption rate of lava. But honestly, it's balanced for TE, not other mods. It works well with the intended progression of TE, and that's all that they were going for.
 

Zandorum

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Have you tried BC pipes now? They have a low extraction/transfer limit and have loss build in. Extracting and transfering high amounts of power that way is... whats the word, tedious? Without TE that also means no energy storage, might be what you are looking for?
I'd rather not have to miss out on TE though now that is become such a staple mod (including the fact that I enjoy the machines and storing energy (But not what storing energy in turn does to the game)).

I think it depends on how much effort you want to (or can) put into making a self-sustaining system. During the early-game, things like magmatic engines or solar cells are good because they're set-and-forget machines, that you can just plop down here and there while you're living in a hole, on a mountainside, or whatnot.
Whereas in the later game, when you have a more planned environment to build things in and plenty more resources, and when these basic machines start to not produce enough power and all, you can start to move into the more advanced methods of power generation, like alumentum, steam, reactors and all that.
I don't know I feel like it just makes early game too easy. I like to have a grindy beginning.

I feel as though it should have a lower power output or a higher consumption rate of lava. But honestly, it's balanced for TE, not other mods. It works well with the intended progression of TE, and that's all that they were going for.
I agree with literally everything your saying.