I know I'm probably beating a dead horse here but.. Dartcraft.

[Hoff]

The closer we get to Creative, the less interesting the MC modding scene becomes.

I vehemently disagree. EE2 brought you much closer to a creative esque play style than DC ever will yet 1.2.5 still had more contraptions and rube goldberg machines(Being made by the general modding community not specific people) than all the versions since. Most of the machines(That I've seen which is likely a fairly small number of them) that people have come up with since are clones, shadows, and/or re-creations of those machines from that era.

Not really sure when this balance retardation came about but when it did it took creativity(For making machines and contraptions) out the door for those most part. Most people seem to focus less on what you're able to do with the things mod gives you and rather focus on just the things it gives you.

 

[RedBoss]

Mod inflation? Seriously? MFR is one of he oldest mods out. Place your logic on that fact.

There is no right way. Mods are written because someone wanted to do something cool that they felt minecraft should offer. New modders should be limited to their own creativity, not old mods.

And for the love of ones and zeros, stop worrying about other people's games!

 

[snooder]

(Odd given it was the strongest tool to begin with. Fortune 4 and the speed puts hammers to complete shame. As for EU cost, can't say I ever noticed with an MPS, Basic with a solar panel, the kinectic generator and a max battery and it was never a real issue.)

That's cause MPS has ridiculous regen. I ran with full lvl2 charge force gear on every slot except an Advanced Nanochestplate and mining with a speed 5 drill only lasts about 15 minutes.

 

[MigukNamja]

EE2 didn't overshadow other mods so much as it made vanilla mechanics easier. DC was/is, by design, meant to overshadow other mods, especially staples like BuildCraft, Forestry, and RailCraft. Why breed trees and build boilers, steam engines, or combustion engines if Force Trees into Force Engines is clearly quicker and easier ? This is not making MC more creative, but less so.

For a server admin like me, I can either include or not include DC, but the sad part is, I can't tweak it via configs to reasonable values. The Force Engine, for instance, has no config to rebalance it WRT to the other MJ producers. It's either in or out, and if I leave just the Force Engine out, but everything else in, for example, the players will be baffled and think there's a bug.

The reason I'm beating the dead horse is so we can make the next general mod-pack better. Any LOLZ mod should at least have good configs.

 

[Hoff]

That's cause MPS has ridiculous regen. I ran with full lvl2 charge force gear on every slot except an Advanced Nanochestplate and mining with a speed 5 drill only lasts about 15 minutes.

That's because the kinetic generator makes up to 2500 EU every 5 blocks you walk.

 

[Hoff]

EE2 didn't overshadow other mods so much as it made vanilla mechanics easier.

uwotm8?

But seriously; did you even play 1.2.5? The name of the game was EE2. All other mods were used solely to make more effective use of EE2.

DC was/is, by design, meant to overshadow other mods, especially staples like BuildCraft, Forestry, and RailCraft. Why breed trees and build boilers, steam engines, or combustion engines if Force Trees into Force Engines is clearly quicker and easier ? This is not making MC more creative, but less so.

Integrating with them = overshadowing. Kay. The tools and enchanting added by those mods must be so overshadowed by dartcraft. Also if you cannot help yourself from doing whatever is absolutely easiest because you don't want to put in the work if there is an easier option you have no right to complain. Well you do but it's a worthless argument. Not to mention Force engines are not the most effective use of universal liquid fuels nor the fastest producers. Not to mention all you've done is go on about power production with it. Power production is not the crux of modded minecraft.

For a server admin like me, I can either include or not include DC, but the sad part is, I can't tweak it via configs to reasonable values. The Force Engine, for instance, has no config to rebalance it WRT to the other MJ producers. It's either in or out, and if I leave just the Force Engine out, but everything else in, for example, the players will be baffled and think there's a bug.

The reason I'm beating the dead horse is so we can make the next general mod-pack better. Any LOLZ mod should at least have good configs.

It's not sad; it just is. If the mod has something in it you want available to your players you must decide whether it's worth it to include the mod or not to include the mod. The world is not ideal and things will not go as you want them to simply because you want them. Get over it.

 

[snooder]

EE2 didn't overshadow other mods so much as it made vanilla mechanics easier. DC was/is, by design, meant to overshadow other mods, especially staples like BuildCraft, Forestry, and RailCraft. Why breed trees and build boilers, steam engines, or combustion engines if Force Trees into Force Engines is clearly quicker and easier ?

Honestly, all that says to me is that BC, Forestry and Railcraft need to step their game up a notch. Force engines are about as trivial to automate as a line of combustion engines. And they produce the same energy as a combustion engine when given the same fluids (fuel+water). The only difference is that you can add additional throttle to get more power out of it. (BTW, fuel is actually better than liquid force since it lasts 10 times as long and produces 75% of the power) Oh, and they don't blow up if your water line suffers a chunkloading malfunction. Instead they just produce a lot less power for a while.

 

[DREVL]

But seriously; did you even play 1.2.5? The name of the game was EE2. All other mods were used solely to make more effective use of EE2.

I ran the gambit of the mods before I even touched ee2 in tekkit during the 1.2.5 period. When I got my head around ee2, every other mod was essentially circumvented. With the blaze rod processing dupe, you had infinity EU, infinity MJ, infinity resources in under an hour. Coming from vanilla to EE2, even with coming from BC, IC2, RP2 Tekkit, the addition of ee2 was mindblown. EE2 laughs in the face of DC.

 

[Siro]

EE2 didn't overshadow other mods so much as it made vanilla mechanics easier. DC was/is, by design, meant to overshadow other mods, especially staples like BuildCraft, Forestry, and RailCraft. Why breed trees and build boilers, steam engines, or combustion engines if Force Trees into Force Engines is clearly quicker and easier ? This is not making MC more creative, but less so.

For a server admin like me, I can either include or not include DC, but the sad part is, I can't tweak it via configs to reasonable values. The Force Engine, for instance, has no config to rebalance it WRT to the other MJ producers. It's either in or out, and if I leave just the Force Engine out, but everything else in, for example, the players will be baffled and think there's a bug.

The reason I'm beating the dead horse is so we can make the next general mod-pack better. Any LOLZ mod should at least have good configs.

couple things in 1.6.2 changelog for dartcraft:

. . .
- The Force Wrench now logs when players Force Wrench a TileEntity to the console. This should help server owners punish or ban players who break the rules. This feature must be enabled in the config.
. . .
- Force Punching Obsidian, Coblalt and Ardite ores, and most IC2 machines is no longer allowed.
. . .
- Obsidian can no longer be transmuted into a Force Infuser in the world and must be shapelessly crafted into a Force Infuser. (No more collecting obsidian with a stone pick, Dan.)
. . .
- Spoils Bags will now only drop from monsters that are killed by EntityPlayers. The bonus chance of Spoils Bags dropping given by Looting has been halved. The bonus chance can also be changed in the config if previous values are desired.
- Force Tools are no longer enchantable and will reset to their Force Infuser added enchants should they become altered by an external force. This feature can be disabled in the config.
. . .
- Force Wrenches are now IForceConsumers. They operate at about 1/10 of a bucket of Force per TileBox created, and will refuse to function in this way if there is insufficient Force stored. The rotation function of the Force Wrench does not consume Force.
- The Force Wrench will no longer retrieve Chests or other IIventories with certain items like Force Packs or other TileBoxes inside them by default. This can be changed in the config.

So it looks like some of the concerns mentioned in this thread are being addressed in 1.6.2, should an FTB pack even have 1.6.2 versions...

 

[DREVL]

Honestly, all that says to me is that BC, Forestry and Railcraft need to step their game up a notch. Force engines are about as trivial to automate as a line of combustion engines. And they produce the same energy as a combustion engine when given the same fluids (fuel+water). The only difference is that you can add additional throttle to get more power out of it. (BTW, fuel is actually better than liquid force since it lasts 10 times as long and produces 75% of the power) Oh, and they don't blow up if your water line suffers a chunkloading malfunction. Instead they just produce a lot less power for a while.

I think those authors have little cares to what DC is doing. I think a vast majority of the ftb community wishes that they continue to not.

 

[MigukNamja]

Honestly, all that says to me is that BC, Forestry and Railcraft need to step their game up a notch.

Thank you. You made my point right there. Without BC, Forestry and Railcraft, there would *be* no Force Engine. Where I come from, clearly overshadowing your mod parent is considered rude behavior.

As for the Force Engine, 1 bucket of Force lasts an *incredibly* long time and a better setup than water is a single cow with a single Rancher, i.e. replace water pump / aqueous accumulator with a Rancher + Cow in a pen and all it done. 12 MJ/t easy as pie. It gets even more insane with Icy Bees. As for Force, just put Force trees in a MultiFarm and call it done.

There's also a reason a Combustion engine will blow up if it overheats - power. 6 MJ/t *used* to be considered a lot of power for a single engine that requires just fuel and water inputs. Sure, Industrial Steam Engines output 8 MJ/t, but they require very longtail boilers to ultimately be more efficient.

Then, *whammo*, Force Engines come along and make those engines obsolete. To me, that's less creative, not more. Bigger numbers != creativity.

As for my game and my creativity, I'm worried that DC will do to BC, Forestry and RC as what has happened to SC2. SC2 has become a vanity mod since it is clearly underpowered/overpriced WRT to all the comparable mods. That's a shame, 'cause it's a great mod with some very cool mechanics.

 

[Hoff]

Mod devs have no reason, nor should they, to create and balance their mod with respect to other mods. It's not rude to outdo a parent mod; it's inevitable and it's innovation.

 

[MigukNamja]

Mod devs have no reason, nor should they, to create and balance their mod with respect to other mods. It's not rude to outdo a parent mod; it's inevitable and it's innovation.

Dude, seriously ? Simpler mechanics, less infrastructure, and bigger numbers is innovation ?

Ah, no, sorry, there's nothing new/innovate in Force Engines other than bigger numbers. It's functionally equivalent to a Biogas engine and simpler than a Combustion engine, just with much bigger numbers.

If put out a mod that apes DC and doubles the values, is that innovating ?

 

[RedBoss]

Thank you. You made my point right there. Without BC, Forestry and Railcraft, there would *be* no Force Engine. Where I come from, clearly overshadowing your mod parent is considered rude behavior.

Without BC, there's no MJ, so your whole point after that is invalid. But I'll humor you

As for the Force Engine, 1 bucket of Force lasts an *incredibly* long time and a better setup than water is a single cow with a single Rancher, i.e. replace water pump / aqueous accumulator with a Rancher + Cow in a pen and all it done. 12 MJ/t easy as pie. It gets even more insane with Icy Bees. As for Force, just put Force trees in a MultiFarm and call it done.

Your second point illustrates how a combination of Thermal Expansion, MFR, and Forestry bees and farms are required to maximize DC. I don't see how multiple mods interacting is causing DC to over-shadow them. If nothing you've proven that your over-shadow point is illogical. This is a shining example of inter-mod interaction and support. They play well together!

There's also a reason a Combustion engine will blow up if it overheats - power. 6 MJ/t *used* to be considered a lot of power for a single engine that requires just fuel and water inputs. Sure, Industrial Steam Engines output 8 MJ/t, but they require very longtail boilers to ultimately be more efficient.

So no engine is allowed to be better than a Combustion Engine? We should still be worried about power gen from 1.2.5? Spamming engines is still not creative, its just that, spam.

Then, *whammo*, Force Engines come along and make those engines obsolete. To me, that's less creative, not more. Bigger numbers != creativity.

Combustion engines are old hat. Many other MJ producers are better and more widely used. Many don't use them because of the explosion issue. Magmatic engines are still en vogue. Boilers are generic MJ producers that are automated very simplistically. They're boring but there's not a real alternative in FTB packs for mass MJ production. If anything you're illustrating how people desire better MJ generation methods than SPAM all the engines.

As for my game and my creativity, I'm worried that DC will do to BC, Forestry and RC as what has happened to SC2. SC2 has become a vanity mod since it is clearly underpowered/overpriced WRT to all the comparable mods. That's a shame, 'cause it's a great mod with some very cool mechanics.

So DC replaced bees, tanks, rails, butterflies, oil world gen, item transport, logic gate systems, offered multiple tree types, etc? That's not true, and its ridiculous. Your point is as logical as how much DC replaces all the armor and weapons that Buildcraft provided. Wait, BC doesn't add that. LOL

 

[DREVL]

ugh.... FTB has too many mods... can't keep up with all of them .

 

[snooder]

Thank you. You made my point right there. Without BC, Forestry and Railcraft, there would *be* no Force Engine. Where I come from, clearly overshadowing your mod parent is considered rude behavior.

There's also a reason a Combustion engine will blow up if it overheats - power. 6 MJ/t *used* to be considered a lot of power for a single engine that requires just fuel and water inputs. Sure, Industrial Steam Engines output 8 MJ/t, but they require very longtail boilers to ultimately be more efficient.

Then, *whammo*, Force Engines come along and make those engines obsolete. To me, that's less creative, not more. Bigger numbers != creativity.

The problem is that we have more machines that use more MJ/t now. BC can't stay static and limp along with 6MJ/t engines any more. It just looks ridiculous to have 160 or 200 engines stacked up wasting space and causing lag. Granted, 12MJ/t isn't a *whole* lot better, but it's a step in the right direction.

Progress happens. People come up with new ideas and new ways of doing things that are less irritating and more convenient for the player. And if a mod doesn't adapt to those new ideas, there's nothing wrong with replacing it with something better.

As for my game and my creativity, I'm worried that DC will do to BC, Forestry and RC as what has happened to SC2. SC2 has become a vanity mod since it is clearly underpowered/overpriced WRT to all the comparable mods. That's a shame, 'cause it's a great mod with some very cool mechanics.

SC2 did that to itself. It was just fine in 1.4.7, and I actually preferred it to MFR farms for early game since it doesn't need an established power infrastructure. And aesthetically, the little train moving on tracks harvesting stuff looked nice. But the new changes just made it stupidly annoying. Galgadorian woodcutter? F' that.

 

[Hoff]

Dude, seriously ? Simpler mechanics, less infrastructure, and bigger numbers is innovation ?

Ah, no, sorry, there's nothing new/innovate in Force Engines other than bigger numbers. It's functionally equivalent to a Biogas engine and simpler than a Combustion engine, just with much bigger numbers.

If put out a mod that apes DC and doubles the values, is that innovating ?

Combining a biogas with the functionality of a combustion then taking it another step making it user friendly by not exploding and merely halving production speed AND taking it ANOTHER step farther and adding in forestry compatibility through crushed ice. Yes; that is innovation.

And for the record; simple mechanics are the best kind of innovation. Simple mechanics that can be used in a complex manner and be expanded upon are the absolute epitome of innovation. To further expand on that idea: item transport pipes. There is nothing so simple yet contains the capability of being ridiculously complex.

 

[Siro]

Thank you. You made my point right there. Without BC, Forestry and Railcraft, there would *be* no Force Engine. Where I come from, clearly overshadowing your mod parent is considered rude behavior.

As for the Force Engine, 1 bucket of Force lasts an *incredibly* long time and a better setup than water is a single cow with a single Rancher, i.e. replace water pump / aqueous accumulator with a Rancher + Cow in a pen and all it done. 12 MJ/t easy as pie. It gets even more insane with Icy Bees. As for Force, just put Force trees in a MultiFarm and call it done.

There's also a reason a Combustion engine will blow up if it overheats - power. 6 MJ/t *used* to be considered a lot of power for a single engine that requires just fuel and water inputs. Sure, Industrial Steam Engines output 8 MJ/t, but they require very longtail boilers to ultimately be more efficient.

Then, *whammo*, Force Engines come along and make those engines obsolete. To me, that's less creative, not more. Bigger numbers != creativity.

As for my game and my creativity, I'm worried that DC will do to BC, Forestry and RC as what has happened to SC2. SC2 has become a vanity mod since it is clearly underpowered/overpriced WRT to all the comparable mods. That's a shame, 'cause it's a great mod with some very cool mechanics.

The length of time liquid force lasts is configurable. MFR BioFuel Generators produce 16 MJ/t. Steve's Carts offers a viable solution for full automation of force trees if one does not wish to breed apatite bees or install Dartpatch.

 

[DREVL]

The problem is that we have more machines that use more MJ/t now. BC can't stay static and limp along with 6MJ/t engines any more. It just looks ridiculous to have 160 or 200 engines stacked up wasting space and causing lag. Granted, 12MJ/t isn't a *whole* lot better, but it's a step in the right direction.

Progress happens. People come up with new ideas and new ways of doing things that are less irritating and more convenient for the player. And if a mod doesn't adapt to those new ideas, there's nothing wrong with replacing it with something better.



SC2 did that to itself. It was just fine in 1.4.7, and I actually preferred it to MFR farms for early game since it doesn't need an established power infrastructure. And aesthetically, the little train moving on tracks harvesting stuff looked nice. But the new changes just made it stupidly annoying. Galgadorian woodcutter? F' that.

yep. if I didn't have oil around, using TiC to autosmelt charcoal, or apatite (which for some reason was frequent), it was go to automated power sourceing, no repairs, least resource intensive setup and easy to use. Now, especially since it requires constant repairs and do in part that TiC lumber axe auto smelts, SC2 is a distant memory.

 

[snooder]

Ah, no, sorry, there's nothing new/innovate in Force Engines other than bigger numbers. It's functionally equivalent to a Biogas engine and simpler than a Combustion engine, just with much bigger numbers.

The innovation in Force engines is the throttle. Which other engine allows you to vary the output of your engine based on a separate input that gives more power for rarer materials? Allowing you to scale up your power production in the mid-late game by adding a new resource, instead of just slapping down more engines. Or, to set up a variable input system that will feed with the more common throttle whenever you don't need as much power, and put in the rarer one for a "turbo" power boost.