I would agree were it not for the fact that every time in the past it happened, the original pack dev/server admin blamed me, never learned anything at all, and I was the one left with the fallout from a very irate community.
RC/ReC/ElC/CC Policy Changes
- Thread starter Reika
- Start date
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I'm curious if mods like Thaumcraft which have a long, arduous tech tree to climb that is very mod specific also encounter the issues Reika has trying to preserve their balance.
I think the fundamental misunderstanding here is that RoC isn't like Thermal Expansion, it's not just a group of machines of varying cost or size. Reika has created a complete tech tree, where one machine leads to the next. A good analogy is a quest, or like a long Thaumcraft research chain. His insistence that no changes are made are to protect the integrity of that quest. There are many many layers of gating, both in materials and power to create them. Those users who think it's just another tech mod don't respect the questing aspect. In that way it's similar to Gregtech, but less grindy and doesn't conflict with vanilla items.
Several other mods have progression, with GT and TC being the clear examples, but the crucial factor is that unlike RC, those mods are very-well known and no pack dev could pass off changes as native mod behavior, nor would any number of players make that mistake. In my case, however, these packs would well be the first experience the user has with my mods.
I honestly don't know what to tell you there. That's one of those things that I'm clueless on and don't know how to fix.
I honestly love what Reika's done here. Coding a special GUI to display changes, requiring that people contact him about their modpacks so he can point out their tweaking flaws (at least the ones relating to his mods). I don't get what all the fuss is about. Sure they're not open permissions, but they're very reasonable for restrictive permission. On the whole, I'd say this system will likely lead to higher quality content then your standard open permissions.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm holding on to the hope that we'll start seeing some of Reika's awesome mods in those modlists soon.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm holding on to the hope that we'll start seeing some of Reika's awesome mods in those modlists soon.
You don't seem to have an idea how often that happens. The answer is alot. I, too, have been on the recieving end of misdirected outrage several times. Its just a fact of life that people can choose to adress in different ways. Reika has chosen to adress it in this way. Other mod devs might completly stop caring about community feedback. There is no objective answer whicn approach is better imo.
Most mod devs never even interact with the community. That is why they tend not to care if their mods or reputations get trashed.
I've done tech support here, I patrol the bug reports section, I've visited Reika's threads, and I've even seen it in the BTW community to a level far beyond the normal; I'm well aware of how frequent it is.
Either you are not getting the blatant throbbing sarcasm or you are beeing sarcastic yourself. I can't really tell which,
I appreciate your opening up but reading the opening post of this thread kinda overwhelmed me...sure, you can do more now but there's also a lot more rules you have to follow. Good for those who are willing to go through that trouble I guess.
But I'm still concerned about that you have to approve every change that is made...that can lead to problems because who guarantees that you'll actually say yes, even when I follow all the rules or when there are misconceptions. What if you simply deny because I've behaved like an asshole in the past and you don't like me anymore? But this is a general problem that is inherent in request permissions.
Somewhat related to this is the problem that I might not know exactly beforehand what changes I am going to make. If I ask you before I start making the pack I lose flexibility, and if I ask you after I'm done I run the risk of you rejecting them and nullifying a lot of work on my part.
I would probably have to interface with you regularly during the process of making the pack, wasting our both's time, especially waiting for answers.
I hoped you would've got a bit more trust into the community when you revised your rules, but the new rules suggest that this hasn't changed.
Sigh...I find it really unfortunate that there are people out there who subjectively force you to have this mindset.
But I'm still concerned about that you have to approve every change that is made...that can lead to problems because who guarantees that you'll actually say yes, even when I follow all the rules or when there are misconceptions. What if you simply deny because I've behaved like an asshole in the past and you don't like me anymore? But this is a general problem that is inherent in request permissions.
Somewhat related to this is the problem that I might not know exactly beforehand what changes I am going to make. If I ask you before I start making the pack I lose flexibility, and if I ask you after I'm done I run the risk of you rejecting them and nullifying a lot of work on my part.
I would probably have to interface with you regularly during the process of making the pack, wasting our both's time, especially waiting for answers.
I hoped you would've got a bit more trust into the community when you revised your rules, but the new rules suggest that this hasn't changed.
Sigh...I find it really unfortunate that there are people out there who subjectively force you to have this mindset.
Currently, some major content additions in ChromatiCraft are the main thing tying it up.
I do hope it will be out soon, possibly within a week.
This is a valid concern, and not one I foresaw.
To address that, and as a result of a discussion I had with someone else (someone major) on a similar topic, I have a proposed revision to that first point, to keep it serving its original purpose (filtering out the "wolf in sheep's clothing" kind of editing as well as keeping me informed) while solving the problem of time consumption, the dependency loop above, and, I suppose, showing some extension of trust.
Basically, the first point would be revised as follows:
- Changes not in the "only looks like a good idea" category do not need direct permission; they can be freely made
- Changes that are in that category still need permission, so that I can confirm the mod pack author's intentions, to filter out people making that mistake. Once a pack dev confirms that yes, the ramifications of the change are desirable (or at least acceptable) and that they will not hold me responsible for anything unforeseen, then they get the permission.
- Pack devs can, at their own discretion, request being put on a special whitelist so that even those limited permissions are not required. The criteria are as follows:
- They need to demonstrate an understanding of RotaryCraft (or the mod(s) they are changing) - such that they are likely to foresee the effects of their changes, making my confirmation unnecessary. This of course requires that they have spent some time playing a recent version of the mod, unmodified, in a survival environment. Monster 1.1.1 does not count.
- They must demonstrate that they are reasonable, not trying to shirk responsibilities of a pack dev or shift blame; they must also remain civil with me in case of a dispute.
- I reserve the right to accept or deny this request based on the user's history, and to add or remove names as I see justified - for example, pack devs who act unreasonably, such as by blaming me for their own mistakes, may see their names removed, or pack devs who request it while having never played RC are not going to be put on it.
- Violating other rules, such as bad-faith modifications, or trying to sell content, is grounds for immediate removal from the whitelist.
- They need to demonstrate an understanding of RotaryCraft (or the mod(s) they are changing) - such that they are likely to foresee the effects of their changes, making my confirmation unnecessary. This of course requires that they have spent some time playing a recent version of the mod, unmodified, in a survival environment. Monster 1.1.1 does not count.
- I still need to be notified of all changes at some point before the pack goes public, primarily so I can keep a record.
The other rules, including the rules regarding having to document the changes in the handbook, not permitting bad-faith changes, and so on, remain unchanged.
Also, for those concerned that the "mod's identity must be left intact" rule:
The rule is not a catch-all for "changes I do not like" nor does it rule out some techtree tweaks and shifts or HQM-type play. All it rules out is truly fundamental changes to the mod, changes that would make the mod unrecognizable aside from having the same blocks and items. My examples given - turning RC into an RF mod, turning ChromatiCraft into a ThaumCraft addon, and making ReactorCraft reactors work like BigReactors - are the kind of thing I am talking about, not "making Thermal Expansion also required for getting some materials".
And, like before, that is because, unlike for most other mods, most people's first impression with my mods is in packs, and I do not want that first impression being "blagh. Just another RF mod" or "Do we need more ThaumCraft addons"?
In the OP you list several examples of these, do those cover all the really likely or really big cases, or could there be some expansion of that list to maybe cover all the specific technologies used to gate things?
I can try to - and will - make a list to expedite the process, but I cannot foresee every potential change. This was part of the reason for the "ask me" policy. But with the new change, I would probably say something like "anything involving these items", with a few specific common examples.
I'm one of those oddballs here too. If you want to thorw things at the wall and see what sticks, that's for personal and small-group-of-friends use. If you plan on publishing that to anyone else? You should spend more than a few minutes trying to actually understand the mods. I watch a half dozen youtubers and read forum threads and changelogs all over the place to try and keep abreast of mods, how they work, and what changes so that I don't have to look at BC and go "Wait, I can use RF now?!" "What are these 'robots'?"
If you don't, you shouldn't be building a modpack or running a server. Sorry it takes time to do right, and if you can't do it right, don't rely on being lucky, IMO.
If you don't, you shouldn't be building a modpack or running a server. Sorry it takes time to do right, and if you can't do it right, don't rely on being lucky, IMO.
I know I've given that as an example before. Usually as a comparison to Gregtech's tiering system, which is the closest one to RotaryCraft that I have seen in "standard" modded MC. Gimme a creative strongbox with all the raw mats like rubies and such and I can breeze through GT in less than a day (pre GT... 6? 7? The HolyCrapWorldGen overhaul version. Basically back in 1.4.7, before I quit playing with GT 'cuz Greg)
Give out a preliminary list in a new thread and link it here, I'm sure there are a few of us that are inveterate hackers that can help point out critical machines and mechanics.
Take this with a grain of salt as something mostly from a years-long lurker, looking at the modding fandom mostly from the outside.
Reika, I love you, I do.
I like your ethos with your mods. I love your enthusiasm for them. I love their quality. I even love how you stick to your guns. They may not all be for me, but I cannot doubt that they're cool. I can very much understand your stake in them vis a vis a labor of love. I think that shows.
But... you are also a perpetual motion machine of drama. You need no outside assistance to keep going. I've run into people like that over and over, in my life, and especially online. Who advertise and tout their victimization, and make it into a perfect self-fulfilling prophecy. And it makes me wince every time because the amount of misery there must be absolutely intense. And also completely unnecessary.
Something bad happens. Just one or two times. They rail about it for literal years, convincing themselves it's the norm. They become defensive and paranoid, thinking they're constantly under attack. That defensiveness makes everyone think they're unpleasant and unfriendly and sometimes downright mean. So people do begin to genuinely dislike said person. And every time that happens it gets slotted into that framework of 'everyone is against me'.
And they never, ever, ever realize that if they just chilled the heck out, and stopped bringing up how hated and persecuted they are, it would all stop.
But I can't say that I've ever seen anyone drop said sack of psychological bricks. Every single time they've just clung harder and harder to it until they left the relationships, community fandom or whatever they were part of.
And I would very much prefer if that didn't happen with you. But... at this point, I'm not hopeful. After all, I'm some random jerk-butt online that you've never seen before. Probably just another meanie-pants mustache-twister giggling at hurting you.
But on the off chance that it will be considered: The person tarnishing your reputation is generally you. People aren't doubting your skill as a modmaker, nor the quality of your work. I can't recall amongst hundreds or thousands of times I've seen RC mentioned, blaming it for being a buggy mess or crapware.
[sorry!]People just think you're a jerk.[/sorry!]
And people will stop thinking that when you step back, take a breath, and just be that awesome person I've seen you be in threads around here. Ever notice that people are very nice to you in those threads? And not so much when you advertising how you're actually the holocaust-survivor-equivalent of the modmaking community, perfectly unique in your trials amongst modmakers?
I know it's all easier said and done, as with any hangup. But chilling out? Letting the past be the past?
Everything would get better if you did that.
I have not seen anyone mention this yet, but by doing this Reika himself is also using up his time. Imagine if he has to review people telling him their changes, then write back after judging them. I think it is to much a time hogging system for both parties to work well, if the Reika mod family did become a given in lots of packs. If you put a steel dome and razor wire over a flower you were scared of getting trampled, you would end up with a dead flower. I think the more permissive/nice mod authors are with their mods, licenses, and general tone the more pack authors and end users can like them and the mods they make.
I wouldn't expect a comprehensive list, like you said that is impossible. I do think something at least covering 'removal of these machines will break progression' and 'making these materials available easier will break gating' and other second-order effects of seemingly simple changes.