Where is the line between contraption and exploit?

[Hoff]

I see. Well, I think that's an important distinction. There's also the issue that the license may be incompatible. When I was first looking at modding as a thing that I might want to do, IC2's license was very proprietary and if I wanted to support it, I would have had to restrict myself to only IC2. They've since made the API open-source, but I want my mod to be open-source for many reasons. If I was to go to the IC2 team and be like, 'hey, let's make MPS part of IC2, but only if you make IC2 open-source' I somehow doubt that would go over well. (I actually tried this with Xycraft... the answer was a definite 'maybe...but only partly, and only when it's cleaned up internally').

To me, it seems unfair to be restricted in what I want to do, if it's within my skill and power to make it happen, just because someone else had the idea first and doesn't want to share. Making a better or different version doesn't harm the creator directly, and by that same token, they have no right to control me.

I agree that you have every right to do all of that. I just never could bring myself to do it. I, personally, feel I have no right to do anything that is not my ground to tread.

I guess I hear that a lot and I just can't relate because ever since I was little I've been constantly analyzing, 'why do I like these games so much? what is fun about them? what am I actually getting out of them? how could I make this better?' So to me there is a very refined sense of what things should be in terms of design - whether or not I actually meet them is another story, but it's a very clear goal to strive towards.

As for ideas, it's not hard to look at something you love and say, 'wouldn't it be great if...?' Bringing it from that nascent state to a tractable, balanced, and most importantly pleasing design is the hard part.

I never analyze why I like things because I never actually know why I like doing things. It's generally a mystery to me. I've always wondered how things worked. I've literally taken weeks or months at a time and written my own version of the source code for physical objects. They will of course never truly be complete but it is something I enjoy doing.

And you have no idea how hard it is for me to do that with ideas. I have no real sense of that "Wouldn't it be great..." I just can't see that in my mind. On the other hand I easily see "This would work better if..." It's funny I think this conversation is the perfect example of why things should be coded in teams. I feel like I would end up like FC though telling everyone to go away and let me do it all. I don't play well with others

See, this is a bit ironic because I'm frequently chided for not handling criticism well, but I feel like you're telling me what to do by saying I shouldn't mod if I can't deal with it. Why not? I like the positive attention that I get, and I like playing Minecraft and I like using my mod and I like seeing people using it and finding it useful. To me, that outweighs the complaining and the backlash that I get from being rude to people who complain. I also find it a little bit amusing when someone asks a stupid question and others start making jokes about running for cover because they know I'm about to blow up at the person.

So no, I think it's a lot more complex than saying, 'you shouldn't start modding if you can't handle the pressure'. People learn and grow and adapt. When someone burns out, it's sad, but the community moves on, and so do they. And I think it's inarguable that the person who burned out learned something about themselves, about people, about coding, and about life in general. Meanwhile, we mine, we fall in lava, we curse, we respawn, we make new tools, we mine some more...

It's true it is a much more complex than how simplistic I'm making it. I guess I feel like the old man that's already done it before in this area. Like a parent telling a child not to do something; to trust them because they've done it before. The child has to experience it first hand though to really understand it though. Because I have already been through it and understand that the positives are great but for me that simply won't outweigh the negatives of it.

 

[MachineMuse]

I agree that you have every right to do all of that. I just never could bring myself to do it. I, personally, feel I have no right to do anything that is not my ground to tread.

And that is how we end up with events like Apple suing Samsung because their phone looked too similar to the iPhone or had too similar of features.

Or icons.

I never analyze why I like things because I never actually know why I like doing things. It's generally a mystery to me. I've always wondered how things worked. I've literally taken weeks or months at a time and written my own version of the source code for physical objects. They will of course never truly be complete but it is something I enjoy doing.

And you have no idea how hard it is for me to do that with ideas. I have no real sense of that "Wouldn't it be great..." I just can't see that in my mind. On the other hand I easily see "This would work better if..." It's funny I think this conversation is the perfect example of why things should be coded in teams. I feel like I would end up like FC though telling everyone to go away and let me do it all. I don't play well with others

Well, that's the thing. You find out by analysis and empirical testing. If you find yourself getting bored, ask yourself, 'why am I not enjoying this? How is this different from the parts that I did enjoy?' And if all else fails, there's books and lectures and TED talks and who knows what else.

It's true it is a much more complex than how simplistic I'm making it. I guess I feel like the old man that's already done it before in this area. Like a parent telling a child not to do something; to trust them because they've done it before. The child has to experience it first hand though to really understand it though. Because I have already been through it and understand that the positives are great but for me that simply won't outweigh the negatives of it.

That's not how you come across; as DoctorOr said, your tone is unjustifiably condescending, and you're applying your own preferences to everyone as though you think they should have the same priorities as you. When that leads to discouraging people from trying their own hand at modding - which might very well be rewarding for them - it's toxic.

 

[Hoff]

And that is how we end up with events like Apple suing Samsung because their phone looked too similar to the iPhone or had too similar of features.

Or icons.

Though in difference I would never have a problem with someone doing it to my work. I just won't do it. I don't hold anyone else to the moral code I follow.

Well, that's the thing. You find out by analysis and empirical testing. If you find yourself getting bored, ask yourself, 'why am I not enjoying this? How is this different from the parts that I did enjoy?' And if all else fails, there's books and lectures and TED talks and who knows what else.

The former I've tried to no avail. The latter I love TED talks c:

That's not how you come across; as DoctorOr said, your tone is unjustifiably condescending, and you're applying your own preferences to everyone as though you think they should have the same priorities as you. When that leads to discouraging people from trying their own hand at modding - which might very well be rewarding for them - it's toxic.

I don't mean to come across that way since this is a forum I assume all posts have an unspoken [In my opinion] [/In my opinion] around them. It's just simply what I feel about it; toxic as it may be. As strange as this sounds I'd rather someone be spared being broken down by people but having someone who could have made someone revolutionary stay silent, rather than having someone be broken down that way but another person coming up with something revolutionary. It's anti-progressive but I am anti-progressive in nature. I would remove competition from the human race completely if it were possible. Even if that meant sending us to the stone age.

 

[MachineMuse]

I don't mean to come across that way since this is a forum I assume all posts have an unspoken [In my opinion] [/In my opinion] around them. It's just simply what I feel about it; toxic as it may be. As strange as this sounds I'd rather someone be spared being broken down by people but having someone who could have made someone revolutionary stay silent, rather than having someone be broken down that way but another person coming up with something revolutionary. It's anti-progressive but I am anti-progressive in nature. I would remove competition from the human race completely if it were possible. Even if that meant sending us to the stone age.

That is so bizarrely alien to me that I can't even imagine how you live your life. Are you a luddite IRL? Do you fire-bomb universities because they might reinvent the Bomb? Do you run Windows 95 because that's what you grew up with?

According to your profile, you're 20 years old, which means your brain hasn't even fully matured yet. Do you intend to prevent it from developing via excessive use of alcohol or other traditional recreational substances?

Like, I can't see how you can live life by that standard and hold up any pretense of logical consistency. Maybe you don't? Are you an avowed hypocrite?

 

[Hoff]

That is so bizarrely alien to me that I can't even imagine how you live your life. Are you a luddite IRL? Do you fire-bomb universities because they might reinvent the Bomb? Do you run Windows 95 because that's what you grew up with?

No. I'm not some zealot that feels the need to force my will on everyone. I know that sounds somewhat contradictory to the remove competition bit, but truly I would rather not remove it from this world but instead live in a world where it never existed.

 

[Saice]

It's anti-progressive but I am anti-progressive in nature. I would remove competition from the human race completely if it were possible. Even if that meant sending us to the stone age.

So I've been reading the back and forth between you and muse.

Wow ... just wow. Everyone is entitled to their own personal world view but yeah.

Competitation is what drives the human face foward. I would not want to go back to the stone age with life spans that are barely in the double digits and 90% of my waking time spent on just food gathering/hunting. I can understand the want for a 'simpler life' but have you looked at just how bad quatliy of life was back then. Hell this whole debate would have never happened one of you two whould have most likely just clubbed the other and been done with it.

 

[Hoff]

So I've been reading the back and forth between you and muse.

Wow ... just wow. Everyone is entitled to their own personal world view but yeah.

Competitation is what drives the human face foward. I would not want to go back to the stone age with life spans that are barely in the double digits and 90% of my waking time spent on just food gathering/hunting. I can understand the want for a 'simpler life' but have you looked at just how bad quatliy of life was back then. Hell this whole debate would have never happened one of you two whould have most likely just clubbed the other and been done with it.

I understand it is very difficult to empathize with. I understand completely what it was like back then and still I would desire that world without any form of human competition over our much more advanced one where it is prevalent. The same way you'll likely never be able to empathize with this desire of mine I will never be able to empathize with those who seek and even enjoy competition.

 

[Saice]

I understand it is very difficult to empathize with. I understand completely what it was like back then and still I would desire that world without any form of human competition over our much more advanced one where it is prevalent. The same way you'll likely never be able to empathize with this desire of mine I will never be able to empathize with those who seek and even enjoy competition.

Well at least we can agree to disagree then.

 

[MachineMuse]

I understand it is very difficult to empathize with. I understand completely what it was like back then and still I would desire that world without any form of human competition over our much more advanced one where it is prevalent. The same way you'll likely never be able to empathize with this desire of mine I will never be able to empathize with those who seek and even enjoy competition.

Okay, I might be overstepping my bounds in saying so, but this sounds crippling and borders on pathology. You would benefit a lot from talking to a psychiatrist or a trusted friend about conflict.

I am not a huge fan of competition either and I greatly prefer cooperation, as evidenced by my mod being open-source and compatible with everything it can be. But cooperation also means making compromises and not everyone is willing to make compromises about their mod for the betterment of the community. That's where competition has its place. That said, it sounds like you're not just terrified of competing but of offending someone in any way or having any conflict at all.

Which brings me back to what I said before: if you 'can't handle the pressure', the solution is to change your methods and adapt and grow and learn and take breaks if you need to, not give up and tell people they should never try in the first place. I realize people have limits and it's not always possible to avoid burning out, but what you've presented is not a solution, it's a cop-out.

 

[Saice]

I am not a huge fan of competition either and I greatly prefer cooperation, as evidenced by my mod being open-source and compatible with everything it can be.

Hey not to side track this great debate.... but have you thought about looking at Thuamcraft? Megitech options would also be awesome.

 

[MachineMuse]

Hey not to side track this great debate.... but have you thought about looking at Thuamcraft? Megitech options would also be awesome.

Have you actually looked at my mod at all? lol. I already have a thaumic goggles module (although it only shows the HUD due to issues accessing Thaumcraft's code). I do intend to do a side project making a 'magical' version of MPS called Heavily Enchanted with more of a focus on Thaumcraft and Ars Magica, but it would need Arts.

Before you go asking any more questions, at least read these pages:
http://machinemuse.net/modules.php
http://machinemuse.net/todo.php

 

[Saice]

Have you actually looked at my mod at all? lol. I already have a thaumic goggles module (although it only shows the HUD due to issues accessing Thaumcraft's code). I do intend to do a side project making a 'magical' version of MPS called Heavily Enchanted with more of a focus on Thaumcraft and Ars Magica, but it would need Arts.

I have. I was thinking more like Vis power systems and the ablity to install wands and thuam tools into the armor.

 

[MachineMuse]

I have. I was thinking more like Vis power systems and the ablity to install wands and thuam tools into the armor.

Yeah, when someone wants to contribute artwork for a magical version, I'll put more energy towards that.

Keep in mind I'm mostly trying to avoid just adding items as modules, instead producing modules that allow the player to accomplish their goals in a powersuit-ish fashion.

 

[Hoff]

Okay, I might be overstepping my bounds in saying so, but this sounds crippling and borders on pathology. You would benefit a lot from talking to a psychiatrist or a trusted friend about conflict.

I am not a huge fan of competition either and I greatly prefer cooperation, as evidenced by my mod being open-source and compatible with everything it can be. But cooperation also means making compromises and not everyone is willing to make compromises about their mod for the betterment of the community. That's where competition has its place. That said, it sounds like you're not just terrified of competing but of offending someone in any way or having any conflict at all.

Which brings me back to what I said before: if you 'can't handle the pressure', the solution is to change your methods and adapt and grow and learn and take breaks if you need to, not give up and tell people they should never try in the first place. I realize people have limits and it's not always possible to avoid burning out, but what you've presented is not a solution, it's a cop-out.

It's really not that crippling. I have no problems living in the world today and I will do what is necessary for me to live. I will not however aid in the progression of humanity. I'm merely withholding any ability I might have to progress humanity(Even if it sounds arrogant to think I might have such ability).

It's not even that I prefer cooperation, doing everything alone is even what I prefer. I just don't like competing. I will if it is necessary for me to get by but I will not opt into competition. Bettering the community is where we break off. I am the person that would not sacrifice one person to possibly save a thousand. I don't care if I offend anyone either. I am quite open to it as people are far too thin skinned these days; internet or not.

A cop-out is fine with me if it avoids the problem. I have no problems with taking the easy way in doing things. Quite simply I do not wish to change, adapt, grow, or learn. I also feel obliged to tell people that I feel if they can't handle it, it might be best to not do it at all.

 

[Saice]

Yeah, when someone wants to contribute artwork for a magical version, I'll put more energy towards that.

Keep in mind I'm mostly trying to avoid just adding items as modules, instead producing modules that allow the player to accomplish their goals in a powersuit-ish fashion.

Understablable.

Right now I really enjoy chucking lighting at stuff yelling 'SO BE IT JEDI"

I do art but have no idea how moding or models work in MC.

 

[mrkite]

I will not however aid in the progression of humanity.

I can't imagine anyone is as sociopathic as you are portraying yourself.

 

[Saice]

I can't imagine anyone is as sociopathic as you are portraying yourself.

I can.

Though most of them are doing it as false front.

I do know at least one guy (a co worker) that really is like that. It is strange seeing the deer in headlights look when we try to explain some things to him that just do not reguester. We are pertty sure hes just one bad day away from doing something we will see on the nightly news.

 

[Hoff]

I can't imagine anyone is as sociopathic as you are portraying yourself.

That as it may be I am doing no direct harm to anyone.

 

[MachineMuse]

It's really not that crippling. I have no problems living in the world today and I will do what is necessary for me to live. I will not however aid in the progression of humanity. I'm merely withholding any ability I might have to progress humanity(Even if it sounds arrogant to think I might have such ability).

It's not even that I prefer cooperation, doing everything alone is even what I prefer. I just don't like competing. I will if it is necessary for me to get by but I will not opt into competition. Bettering the community is where we break off. I am the person that would not sacrifice one person to possibly save a thousand. I don't care if I offend anyone either. I am quite open to it as people are far too thin skinned these days; internet or not.

A cop-out is fine with me if it avoids the problem. I have no problems with taking the easy way in doing things. Quite simply I do not wish to change, adapt, grow, or learn. I also feel obliged to tell people that I feel if they can't handle it, it might be best to not do it at all.

Why?

What is so terrifying about change that you would rather submit to an eternity of mediocrity?

 

[Hoff]

Why?

What is so terrifying about change that you would rather submit to an eternity of mediocrity?

It's not terrifying, I would just rather not be apart of it. I see no obvious benefits for me.