tinker's construct - Draw Speed

[ShneekeyTheLost]

With 99.5 hearts of damage, armor piercing is irrelevant. It's a one shot kill on anything below a ender dragon/wither etc. Also, I'm not confusing anything, I clearly stated draw speed has to do with follow up shots. This translates to more shots per second. Also, flight speed translates to flatter shooting/less holdover. Ergo, lighter bolts that fly faster, flatter and do 99.5 hearts damage are way better.

And I would respectfully disagree. It does not translate into more shots per second because all shots are being fired at a rate of .25/s. If you are waiting for a shot to land before popping off your second one, you are wasting your rate of fire advantage. Think less bolt action and more grease-gun. Flatter and faster does not matter against targets that are actually being rendered. Anything less than about ten chunks away isn't going to be rendered, and so cannot be targeted anyway. If you can see it, you can shoot it.

Edit: I forgot that faster flight speed means less time to target, which translates to less "leading" of the target required. This is very important when engaging dragons.

I never had problems leading anything I was shooting at.

 

[Someone Else 37]

I think there's some confusion of terms here. From what I gather:

- Draw Speed is a bow stat and refers to the cooldown time after crossbow shots and the warmup time before shortbow and longbow shots. Redstone can be applied to the bow to lower this number, and the lower it is, the faster you can fire off arrows or bolts. However, it's capped at 0.25 seconds, which a signalum limb gives you without any redstone.
- Arrow Speed is a bow stat and influences both the damage dealt by the arrows and how fast they actually fly. Determined by limb and string material; this is why people like to use fiery string.
- Weight is an arrow/bolt stat and is determined by the tool rod used as a shaft. A heavier bolt increases damage dealt to armored targets, at the cost of making the projectiles fly slower. Does not affect damage dealt to unarmored targets.
- The actual speed the arrows fly is not an actual stat visible anywhere, and is a function of the arrows' Weight and possibly the bow's Arrow Speed stat. The higher this is, the easier it will be to hit moving targets, and the less the arrows will fall per unit distance traveled, making it easier to hit targets that are far away. However, as you gain experience using your bow, you'll be able to hit distant moving targets well enough if you lead your shots and aim appropriately.

Does any of this contradict anyone's experience?

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think there's some confusion of terms here. From what I gather:

- Draw Speed is a bow stat and refers to the cooldown time after crossbow shots and the warmup time before shortbow and longbow shots. Redstone can be applied to the bow to lower this number, and the lower it is, the faster you can fire off arrows or bolts. However, it's capped at 0.25 seconds, which a signalum limb gives you without any redstone.

Accurate

- Arrow Speed is a bow stat and influences both the damage dealt by the arrows and how fast they actually fly. Determined by limb and string material; this is why people like to use fiery string.

It does influence damage. I don't know how much it actually impacts how fast they actually fly.

- Weight is an arrow/bolt stat and is determined by the tool rod used as a shaft. A heavier bolt increases damage dealt to armored targets, at the cost of making the projectiles fly slower. Does not affect damage dealt to unarmored targets.

To clarify a point: weight is a factor of all materials in the projectile, however the 'flight' and 'head' of an arrow has a clear winner in terms of all metrics measurable. So while the weight of all components is taken into consideration, only the shaft is really brought into question in terms of material. Higher weight increases armor penetration, not actual damage to armored targets, although the effect is roughly the same. With some of the heavier bolts, it's practically as armor-penetrating as a rapier. That does nearly 100 damage per shot.

- The actual speed the arrows fly is not an actual stat visible anywhere, and is a function of the arrows' Weight and possibly the bow's Arrow Speed stat. The higher this is, the easier it will be to hit moving targets, and the less the arrows will fall per unit distance traveled, making it easier to hit targets that are far away. However, as you gain experience using your bow, you'll be able to hit distant moving targets well enough if you lead your shots and aim appropriately.

Roughly correct, although the distances you are firing at are generally short enough (typically less than fifty blocks or so) that the differences in 'drop' are negligible at best.

 

[Baron_Falcon]

And I would respectfully disagree. It does not translate into more shots per second because all shots are being fired at a rate of .25/s. If you are waiting for a shot to land before popping off your second one, you are wasting your rate of fire advantage. Think less bolt action and more grease-gun. Flatter and faster does not matter against targets that are actually being rendered. Anything less than about ten chunks away isn't going to be rendered, and so cannot be targeted anyway. If you can see it, you can shoot it.


I never had problems leading anything I was shooting at.

lol it absolutely does translate directly to more shots per second. .25/s is not the rate of fire. It is the speed at which the string is drawn before release. The rate of fire is 4 bolts per second, in theory. And who said I was waiting for a shot to land?

 

[Baron_Falcon]

I think there's some confusion of terms here. From what I gather:

- Draw Speed is a bow stat and refers to the cooldown time after crossbow shots and the warmup time before shortbow and longbow shots. Redstone can be applied to the bow to lower this number, and the lower it is, the faster you can fire off arrows or bolts. However, it's capped at 0.25 seconds, which a signalum limb gives you without any redstone.
- Arrow Speed is a bow stat and influences both the damage dealt by the arrows and how fast they actually fly. Determined by limb and string material; this is why people like to use fiery string.
- Weight is an arrow/bolt stat and is determined by the tool rod used as a shaft. A heavier bolt increases damage dealt to armored targets, at the cost of making the projectiles fly slower. Does not affect damage dealt to unarmored targets.
- The actual speed the arrows fly is not an actual stat visible anywhere, and is a function of the arrows' Weight and possibly the bow's Arrow Speed stat. The higher this is, the easier it will be to hit moving targets, and the less the arrows will fall per unit distance traveled, making it easier to hit targets that are far away. However, as you gain experience using your bow, you'll be able to hit distant moving targets well enough if you lead your shots and aim appropriately.

Does any of this contradict anyone's experience?

No confusion here at all. I clearly stated almost exactly what you said regarding draw speed and signalum, more than once.

 

[Baron_Falcon]

Accurate
It does influence damage. I don't know how much it actually impacts how fast they actually fly.
To clarify a point: weight is a factor of all materials in the projectile, however the 'flight' and 'head' of an arrow has a clear winner in terms of all metrics measurable. So while the weight of all components is taken into consideration, only the shaft is really brought into question in terms of material. Higher weight increases armor penetration, not actual damage to armored targets, although the effect is roughly the same. With some of the heavier bolts, it's practically as armor-penetrating as a rapier. That does nearly 100 damage per shot.
Roughly correct, although the distances you are firing at are generally short enough (typically less than fifty blocks or so) that the differences in 'drop' are negligible at best.

lol, I stated nearly exactly what this guy said, and you agreed with him, and disagreed with me. lol

 

[Master_Builder_800]

First off- triple post, just saying.

More to the point arrow speed only effects how fast an arrow flies, if I'm reading this right, this whole argument is somewhat confusing, you seem to believe that the faster your arrow is the faster your RoF is? If that's the case you're completely wrong because the arrow speed only effects how fast the arrow flies after it's in midair. Anything before that, like draw speed, is completely independent of the arrow.

Everything else I can't really have any authority on, because I've only ever thought of weight as a bad stat and something to be avoided. Also, wouldn't weight drag the arrow down somewhat? Thats why I've always avoided it because I thought it would affect my long range sniping, which is kinda the point of a bow/crossbow.

Also while I'm at it, is there any advantage/disadvantage to using a bow instead of a crossbow?

 

[Baron_Falcon]

First off- triple post, just saying.

More to the point arrow speed only effects how fast an arrow flies, if I'm reading this right, this whole argument is somewhat confusing, you seem to believe that the faster your arrow is the faster your RoF is? If that's the case you're completely wrong because the arrow speed only effects how fast the arrow flies after it's in midair. Anything before that, like draw speed, is completely independent of the arrow.

Everything else I can't really have any authority on, because I've only ever thought of weight as a bad stat and something to be avoided. Also, wouldn't weight drag the arrow down somewhat? Thats why I've always avoided it because I thought it would affect my long range sniping, which is kinda the point of a bow/crossbow.

Also while I'm at it, is there any advantage/disadvantage to using a bow instead of a crossbow?

Triple post? Is there a quota? Are you an unofficial mod now?

You are very confused indeed. I never equated arrow speed with rate of fire. I very clearly stated rate of fire is based on draw speed, which is the .25 second unit of measure.

Yes, bolts are vastly superior to a bow. Can you make a bow with 99.5 hearts (189+ attack)?

 

[Master_Builder_800]

Triple post? Is there a quota? Are you an unofficial mod now?

I wish, I was just making a helpful mention no need to take offense, typically it's better to keep it all in one.

You are very confused indeed. I never equated arrow speed with rate of fire. I very clearly stated rate of fire is based on draw speed, which is the .25 second unit of measure.

lol it absolutely does translate directly to more shots per second. .25/s is not the rate of fire. It is the speed at which the string is drawn before release.

I think this is clarifying.

Yes, bolts are vastly superior to a bow. Can you make a bow with 99.5 hearts (189+ attack)?

Thought so, nice to have it confirmed.

And on another note I think @ShneekeyTheLost is correct, weight might be better. I can't know for sure because I've always just gone for speed, and while I still think its good because I haven't done any testing. My logic is that Shneeky said that they do more damage to armored opponents. That makes it super valuable because almost all opponents are "armored", they don't necessarily need to have visible armor on. Take the normal zombie for instance, even if it doesn't have any armor on, I believe it still have 2 hidden armor points by default. Point is heavy would do extra damage to most mobs anyway, so unless heavy only applies to visible armor it may be more valuable than flight speed.

 

[Baron_Falcon]

I think this is clarifying.

In what way? Did it clarify that I did not equate arrow speed with rate of fire? If so, then good. If not, then let me clarify further.

The original comment of .25/s being the rate of fire is wrong on several levels. First, .25/s is an entirely incorrect statement of units, because .25/s is actually saying .25 seconds per second. Otherwise it seems he may be saying the rate of fire is .25 bolts per second, which would also be wrong. Second, the actual rate of fire, based on the .25 second draw speed, in theory, is 4 bolts per second, not .25/s.

So, to clarify, the draw speed is .25s, the rate of fire is 4 bolts per second (4x/s). In theory. I say in theory because there is the release time in between it being redrawn.

Neither of those equates to arrow speed. And I did not equate either the draw speed, nor the rate of fire, with arrow speed.

And on another note I think @ShneekeyTheLost is correct, weight might be better. I can't know for sure because I've always just gone for speed, and while I still think its good because I haven't done any testing. My logic is that Shneeky said that they do more damage to armored opponents. That makes it super valuable because almost all opponents are "armored", they don't necessarily need to have visible armor on. Take the normal zombie for instance, even if it doesn't have any armor on, I believe it still have 2 hidden armor points by default. Point is heavy would do extra damage to most mobs anyway, so unless heavy only applies to visible armor it may be more valuable than flight speed.

Again, anything that wears armor is a one shot kill at this point. Armor piercing then becomes a useless ability. Conversely, a lighter faster arrow has several valuable attributes at that point. The ability to put more bolts on target in a shorter time period is extremely valuable when fighting a chaos dragon that moves very swiftly which reduces the window of opportunity. Given a choice between a bolt that has the same damage, in this case 99.5 hearts, would you choose a faster flatter shooting one, or a slower one with a more pronounced arc and longer time to target? Again, keep in mind, at this point armor piercing is a moot point because either one is a one shot kill on armored mobs.

 

[Master_Builder_800]

In what way? Did it clarify that I did not equate arrow speed with rate of fire? If so, then good. If not

It was not, if you look at what you quoted in your comment you'll understand why, but thanks for clarifying. Also, just a thought but with a crossbow it would be possible to pull off 5 shots/second because the crossbow saves its drawback, meaning that you could pull off a shot already loaded on top of your 4/second.

Again, anything that wears armor is a one shot kill at this point. Armor piercing then becomes a useless ability. Conversely, a lighter faster arrow has several valuable attributes at that point. The ability to put more bolts on target in a shorter time period is extremely valuable when fighting a chaos dragon that moves very swiftly which reduces the window of opportunity. Given a choice between a bolt that has the same damage, in this case 99.5 hearts, would you choose a faster flatter shooting one, or a slower one with a more pronounced arc and longer time to target? Again, keep in mind, at this point armor piercing is a moot point because either one is a one shot kill on armored mobs.

It was just a theory sheesh, besides, can you one shot a enderdragon with your light arrows? What about a Wither, or just most bosses? I think that though fast arrows definitely have their abilities and i think they will always be my arrow of choice, weight may have an edge against bosses considering their armor values. I predict that the result will be something like using a rapier on a Wither, but possibly more powerful. Again, most of this is guesswork on the facts I know and some of this stuff is new to me, like the abilities of heavy attribute, but I will probably have more informative answers on this topic after I get to play MC and do some proper testing with this whole thing.

 

[Inaeo]

I've been thinking about making a crossbow lately, so this thread piqued my interest. I understand the idea that once a crossbow does 99.5 hearts of damage, all other stats are damn near meaningless, but let's consider those of us not playing on a pack containing Signalum. Yes, those do exist (currently playing Regrowth).

Going with a nearly Vanilla+TiCo setup, what is the "best" one can hope for. Keep in mind, best is highly subjective. I'm all for lively debate, but know that nobody's preference is inherently wrong.

 

[Master_Builder_800]

I will investigate this better later for a better response, but for now I'd go with high durability and look for something with high draw speed. Then for the bolts we are currently all arguing whether speed or heavy is better, once I have done proper experiments on this an research I'll let you know the absolute best combo.

 

[Henry Link]

@Inaeo Use NEI to look up the parts of the bow and check the stats of the individual parts. Also, use a creative world to do some testing with those materials. See what you come up with.

 

[Inaeo]

@Inaeo Use NEI to look up the parts of the bow and check the stats of the individual parts. Also, use a creative world to do some testing with those materials. See what you come up with.

That's the plan when I get back to a place where I have some semblance of free time to play. Playing time is extremely limited these days, so I was flexing the power of the interwebs to expel knowledge to me.

As I stated, I am currently working on a Regrowth world, so I have a solid hunch that Mek's Refined Glowstone will end up in part of my end build, seeing as the other tools it makes are quite nice (good durability, high mining level, fast speed). Pokefinium has a x3 durability modifier, so that might make the cut for a part as well. Unfortunately, I don't have stats for draw speed, weight, etc available at the moment.

 

[Someone Else 37]

That's the plan when I get back to a place where I have some semblance of free time to play. Playing time is extremely limited these days, so I was flexing the power of the interwebs to expel knowledge to me.

As I stated, I am currently working on a Regrowth world, so I have a solid hunch that Mek's Refined Glowstone will end up in part of my end build, seeing as the other tools it makes are quite nice (good durability, high mining level, fast speed). Pokefinium has a x3 durability modifier, so that might make the cut for a part as well. Unfortunately, I don't have stats for draw speed, weight, etc available at the moment.

Shneeky did a pretty thorough analysis of the vanilla TiCo crossbow and bolt materials here. He found that a slime limb with a fiery string worked the best; combining a higher-bolt-speed-but-slower-to-draw limb such as steel or cobalt with an enchanted bowstring for an extra modifier ended up doing about the same amount of damage as the slime/fiery combo, but was still slower to draw, even with the extra modifier.

How Mekanism materials might factor into that is unknown to me.

 

[Baron_Falcon]

Shneeky did a pretty thorough analysis of the vanilla TiCo crossbow and bolt materials here.

Pretty awesome analysis.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneeky did a pretty thorough analysis of the vanilla TiCo crossbow and bolt materials here. He found that a slime limb with a fiery string worked the best; combining a higher-bolt-speed-but-slower-to-draw limb such as steel or cobalt with an enchanted bowstring for an extra modifier ended up doing about the same amount of damage as the slime/fiery combo, but was still slower to draw, even with the extra modifier.

How Mekanism materials might factor into that is unknown to me.

That is some very dated research materials, and is not entirely accurate anymore. Modifiers, for example, do FAR less for ammo than they used to, to the point of almost not being worth bothering with. It also does not take into consideration ExtraTIC materials, which would completely obviate the whole thing.

However, it does at least show the armor penetrating ability of weight when used against vanilla diamond armor.

With ExtraTiC, the best 'limb' is going to be Signalum. It pretty much does everything you want with a bow, it has .25 draw speed, and the highest arrow speed of any material I have uncovered. Enderium is the best head material because it does the most damage, bar none. Enchanted Bowstring is even LESS valuable because your draw speed has already been minimized and additional modifiers are not necessary on your bow, making Fiery the only viable option.

I have not yet started experimenting with various rods for bolts because prior to ExtraTiC there were very few options. You couldn't make a bolt out of a slime rod, for example. The head metal simply wouldn't pour. The advantage to bows prior to ExtraTiC is that you could get some interesting effects with various shafts. Using a blaze rod as a shaft, for example, had built-in Flaming with no modifier cost. I'm not certain if this is still the case or not.

Typically, I would use the heaviest material for the tool rod to make the bolts with due to armor penetration capability. I doubt this will change much, since modifiers on ammo have almost no effect on damage output anymore.

 

[LucaLBDP]

I always make arrows with end rod and with estimphalian bird feather (from ice and fire) it makes the arrow not to fall and the end rod make it fast or almost instant.

 

[Otisons]

What I would like to leave here:
Damage modifiers are heavily weakened, almost not worth tinkering with. So if you are going to use modifiers, use the ones that are useful. For example, knocking back to hold opponents. Remember in the original Diablo how the bear bow was so divine because the opponents never got to you? Yes, sort of. Go ahead and throw your luck on him to get extra drops.