Tinkers Construct 1.8.9 thoughts...

Lethosos

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That iron pan in your kitchen? Sand-cast.

That being said, I've been around machine shops--lighter metals like aluminum are usually machined to specifications, but the base blocks are still initially cast.

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Pyure

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That iron pan in your kitchen? Sand-cast.

That being said, I've been around machine shops--lighter metals like aluminum are usually machined to specifications, but the base blocks are still initially cast.

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...Ok, I think you're not disagreeing with me then? :p

None of this is a big deal. It falls squarely in the category of "problems I can fix on my own end and screw everyone else." Yay :)
 
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ShneekeyTheLost

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_(metalworking)

I had that on hand in case anyone said "metal casting hasn't changed too much" :p

The key thing here is "too much." That's a subjective term. I don't care where anyone else's baseline for "too much" is, my concern is that we're proposing a system whereby metal casting, from the dawn of metallurgy until the information age, doesn't change "at all."
The only methods found on that page that didn't exist in the 1400's is as follows:

Evaporative-pattern casting. They didn't have access to foams that would be able to cast a pattern and then boil away. This also really sucks because it doesn't always boil away and doesn't always make a proper mold. Which means you have a FAR higher rate of failure than using other expendable methods.

SSM castings didn't exist back then, but then they weren't trying to cast most of the metals it is used to cast back then either. It's not possible without an industrial base, but neither are the alloys it is used for.

Centrifugal Casting has been around since late 1800's, and requires lathing and smelting to work together. Originally used to make railroad beams, it's mostly used in small jewelry applications these days. Also a bit of a boondoggle, just use a pattern mold. If you've got a steady hand, you won't need to worry about bubbles.

Continuous Casting. This is used these days in lieu of wire-drawing because it is much more efficient and faster at creating wire (or plate) of solid metal for large practices. For example, this is used to make armor plating for naval vessels or the rebar for multi-story building. It is strictly industrial quantity use. Just one guy in a smithy isn't going to be able to manage this, and it wouldn't be practical for the sorts of uses one person would need anyway.

In short, of the more modern processes, none of them would be appropriate for MC because none of them are something Steve would ever need to worry about or be able to accomplish.

Has casting improved in the past few centuries? Yes. However, most of the changes have been in the metallurgy itself rather than in the casting techniques. Look up Bessemer Process for a good example. Of the few examples of improvements in actual casting techniques, most of them are strictly industrial large-scale process for efficiency over thousands of tons of processing and require corporate-level infrastructure and investment to pull off, or require access to materials that require modern chemistry and refinement to create. Other than that... pretty much exactly the same concepts, and even techniques, that were used back when Rome was conquering all Europe.

I'm not sure how I like the direction TiCo in 1.8.9 is heading, but I suppose it is very much still in alpha development, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
 

Pyure

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Sorry Shneekey, I'm not really convinced. You left out die casting and didn't mention the different materials we use to actually assemble the smeltery itself, or the fact that we use injection to "pour" molten materials faster. All of which are potentially extremely useful to Steve today (and, more importantly, to me)

The key thing that wins all arguments is that the "speed" of metalworking hasn't changed from the first day I started my smeltery. Its still antiquated.

I never argued that the majority of concepts and techniques weren't identical. I already agree with all that. The problem is that I'm still using the exact...totally unchanged...technology from the stone age.

If that's awesome for other players, cool for them. I'm higher tier. Its not good enough for me.
 

Lethosos

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Then consider ingot casting as a means to improve the quality of raw metals--you get this slag on the top afterwards, which is generally knocked/scraped off.

I would look at Foundry as an alternative to TiCo, it should have most of what you're looking for.

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ShneekeyTheLost

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Sorry Shneekey, I'm not really convinced. You left out die casting and didn't mention the different materials we use to actually assemble the smeltery itself, or the fact that we use injection to "pour" molten materials faster. All of which are potentially extremely useful to Steve today (and, more importantly, to me)

The key thing that wins all arguments is that the "speed" of metalworking hasn't changed from the first day I started my smeltery. Its still antiquated.

I never argued that the majority of concepts and techniques weren't identical. I already agree with all that. The problem is that I'm still using the exact...totally unchanged...technology from the stone age.

If that's awesome for other players, cool for them. I'm higher tier. Its not good enough for me.
Die Casting has been around as long as 'striking coins' have been.

Injection methods are used by Steve in 1.7.10. They're called Fluiducts. They are used to automate the process, which is effectively what injection lets you do. Which increases the speed and lets you run batches without direct observation.

I'm not sure where your point is. If you're wanting a method faster than casting, you can look at stamping. And a stamping machine is something you could probably include for Steve as an addendum for the Smeltery. Probably a block you add onto a Duct which then has a particular stamp that will crank out a particular resource. For example, you could set it up to stamp out gears, so any metal that goes into there gets stamped into a gear. Set up automation out of it and it'll stamp out gears faster. Switch the gear stamp for an ingot stamp, and it'll pound out ingots. And it'll probably be faster because you don't have to wait for the cooldown. Stamp and move.
 

Pyure

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Die Casting has been around as long as 'striking coins' have been.

Injection methods are used by Steve in 1.7.10. They're called Fluiducts. They are used to automate the process, which is effectively what injection lets you do. Which increases the speed and lets you run batches without direct observation.

I'm not sure where your point is. If you're wanting a method faster than casting, you can look at stamping. And a stamping machine is something you could probably include for Steve as an addendum for the Smeltery. Probably a block you add onto a Duct which then has a particular stamp that will crank out a particular resource. For example, you could set it up to stamp out gears, so any metal that goes into there gets stamped into a gear. Set up automation out of it and it'll stamp out gears faster. Switch the gear stamp for an ingot stamp, and it'll pound out ingots. And it'll probably be faster because you don't have to wait for the cooldown. Stamp and move.
No worries, I can clarify my point, although I feel I've browbeated it a bit. (Edit: see my last paragraph. Do you think I'm complaining that TC itself needs to provide advancement options?)

My point is that technology...of all kinds...does change over time. You can argue that we wear the exact essential type of technology on our feet that we did three thousand years ago, and we can argue semantics about what constitutes substantial change, but at the end of the day ALL things evolve over time. We don't wear the exact same types of shoes, and we don't procure metalworks in the exact same way.

What I would like to see for my personal playing experience is a bit of game design streamlining: if other things are progressing with technological advancements, so should metalworking. I quarry differently. I produce power differently. I process ores differently. I farm differently. And yet I metalwork the exact same way.

Someone can argue till they're blue in the face that metalworking doesn't need to change, and that's fine. It doesn't. But it can, and its an objectively positive step forward in terms of game design.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_casting#History
But of course its less relevant if you want to use coin casting as your example of die casting.

I wonder if some people are making the mistake of thinking I'm suggesting changes for TC. I'm not. If you read my posts in their entirety you'll see I'm talking about modpacks. TC is fine as is (in either version presumably.) Its a bit OP for my tastes but that's a totally different discussion. I'm talking specifically about making things like "gears" never have a technologically upgraded production source.
 

Golrith

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Loved the rest of your idea, but this one here irritates me about infinity expert, which does the same thing. I've been using my ancient smeltery to make gears since day 1. I now have lasers and fission and stuff. I don't want to use antiquated tools to make gears anymore. There should be later-game options for such so I can tear that thing down (or at least move it to a low-traffic area)
I suppose really what's needed is a RF powered "Casting Station" that accepts a liquid input, a slot for the cast, and an output area. Sounds quite simple in concept really. Recipe naturally requires cast components so you have to make the normal smeltery first and actually use it.
 
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ShneekeyTheLost

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No worries, I can clarify my point, although I feel I've browbeated it a bit. (Edit: see my last paragraph. Do you think I'm complaining that TC itself needs to provide advancement options?)

My point is that technology...of all kinds...does change over time. You can argue that we wear the exact essential type of technology on our feet that we did three thousand years ago, and we can argue semantics about what constitutes substantial change, but at the end of the day ALL things evolve over time. We don't wear the exact same types of shoes, and we don't procure metalworks in the exact same way.

What I would like to see for my personal playing experience is a bit of game design streamlining: if other things are progressing with technological advancements, so should metalworking. I quarry differently. I produce power differently. I process ores differently. I farm differently. And yet I metalwork the exact same way.

Someone can argue till they're blue in the face that metalworking doesn't need to change, and that's fine. It doesn't. But it can, and its an objectively positive step forward in terms of game design.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_casting#History
But of course its less relevant if you want to use coin casting as your example of die casting.

I wonder if some people are making the mistake of thinking I'm suggesting changes for TC. I'm not. If you read my posts in their entirety you'll see I'm talking about modpacks. TC is fine as is (in either version presumably.) Its a bit OP for my tastes but that's a totally different discussion. I'm talking specifically about making things like "gears" never have a technologically upgraded production source.
Ummm... TiC is the only mod which DOES casting. Every other mod hand-waves the casting process in favor of crafting ingots into finished product. You are saying you're wanting improved casting, it's going to be assumed that you're referring to the only mod currently in use which actually HAS a casting process in the first place. If you're talking about a totally new mod... that I can get behind.

Start off with TFC's method of smelting initially... Plaster Mold casting (well, we'll use clay molds, but they're still expendable-mold) where you heat your metal elsewhere and pour the molten metal into the cast. Let it cool, crack the mold, and you've got a shiny... something.

From there, you can make a casting box, and make a couple of different types of sands for Sand Casting. The advantage here is that the sand used in the sand casting is largely reusable (maybe a durability with a number of uses). Sand + Clay for your basic types of sand for casting. Make stone patterns to form the sand around, fill with molten metal. Rinse, wash, repeat. Lower resource cost per casting than the Plaster Mold method.

Once you get some beekeeping going, you can do a Lost Wax, or Investment, casting. You can automate the production of the wax molds, the wax is a renewable resource, so your costs become trivial at this point.

Once you get industrial machinery, you can get into die casting and injection molding, maybe have some continuous casting process for wire and plate to produce it in bulk faster than something like a drawing machine could.

But then you'd have to have the other side of the coin, so to speak, and have stamping, drawing, and other types of metal forming automation.

All of this, of course, pre-supposes that you'd have something they would be used for. Particularly when you get into industrial uses, you're talking about machines that will crank out hundreds to thousands of pieces, and work best when constantly in use. There's just not that much demand for gears or plates or wires in Steve's life. Certainly not on that scale. And building in that much sub-combine is going to make people facepalm and refuse to install the mod. It would be orders of magnitude worse than IC2-ex and Gregtech's level of subcombines.

In other words, why did Steve never develop such processes? He never needed them. No machine shop is ever going to need that much capacity by itself. With the lack of demand, there's no reason to have that capacity in the first place. For the quantities he is working in, the same processes that have been used for thousands of years will work perfectly well, and will be just as efficient and economical, as having access to other methods of casting that never actually get used.
 

Pyure

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Ummm... TiC is the only mod which DOES casting. Every other mod hand-waves the casting process in favor of crafting ingots into finished product. You are saying you're wanting improved casting, it's going to be assumed that you're referring to the only mod currently in use which actually HAS a casting process in the first place. If you're talking about a totally new mod... that I can get behind.
No, you're off target by quite a bit here.

Go back and check the thread; we were discussing whether it was a good idea to make TiCo the only way to get gears. Not to do casting. To get gears (and stuff like gears)

My point -- and its correct regardless of subjective opinions -- is that Steve should be making gears on day 4000 better than he should be on Day 12. This has precedents: He does almost everything better on Day 4000 than he does on Day 12, so there's no sense making exceptions.

Other stuff that sounds reasonably fun
Or Steve can (as a plausible example) just keep it simple and do his "casting" by pouring liquid iron into a fluid transposer with a gear mold in it, and it does something similar to what the smeltery does, only faster, and/or easier to automate. Basically the exact same process, but technologically tweaked for efficiency and logistical improvements.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Or Steve can (as a plausible example) just keep it simple and do his "casting" by pouring liquid iron into a fluid transposer with a gear mold in it, and it does something similar to what the smeltery does, only faster, and/or easier to automate. Basically the exact same process, but technologically tweaked for efficiency and logistical improvements.
Erm... the smeltery IS as easily automated. Fluiduct for pumping liquid metal in, hoppers for putting in raw materials and pulling ingots out. Or just use pipes, if you prefer. The only difference is going to be footprint.

What I could see is a 'stamping machine'. Basically, it eats plates and produces gears (or whatever die you use to stamp with). Plates, however, are produced through the rolling machine, which consumes molten metals and produces plates at a 2:1 ratio (two plates per ingot). So your gears get cheaper to produce. Said machines (both of them) can get speed upgrades to produce them faster.

However, the only thing that really needs gears right now is Thermal Expansion. No one else uses the silly things. Now, if you could build a metallurgy/smeltery type mod, and get all the tech guys to use it as components... that might be interesting. Impossible, but interesting. I suppose there's always Minetweaks or something. But my point remains: you can be as efficient at stamping out gears as much as you like. If you don't have anything they are used for, there's no point in having them.

Requiring casting for gears and the like is not going to change anything because gears are very rarely used. To make this change, you also need to do something with the output.
 

Someone Else 37

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I think what's going on here is that Pyure is playing a modpack where the only way to make gears is the rather low-tech TiCo Casting Table, which seems a little incongruous with the sort of technology found in mods like EnderIO or Applied Energistics, and he wants a fancier way to make gears and such.

I think a Minetweakered recipe for the BC assembly table that turns ingots into gears for a cost of not too much RF (so it'll be faster than the smeltery, even with only one or two lasers) would solve this problem quite nicely.

I'm not trying to walk over anyone's opinions here; I have no doubt that all the new metalworking techniques employed by industry today would fit well in their own pack, perhaps one with the sort of exponentially-increasing resource requirements found in Factorio and Fortresscraft Evolved... but that's an entirely different discussion fit for its own thread.

None of this is a big deal. It falls squarely in the category of "problems I can fix on my own end and screw everyone else." Yay :)
 
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Pyure

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Erm... the smeltery IS as easily automated. Fluiduct for pumping liquid metal in, hoppers for putting in raw materials and pulling ingots out. Or just use pipes, if you prefer. The only difference is going to be footprint.
I don't think you're getting it, and I lack the skills to break it down any further :(

I do appreciate your feedback and opinions though, thanks.

What I could see is a 'stamping machine'. Basically, it eats plates and produces gears (or whatever die you use to stamp with). Plates, however, are produced through the rolling machine, which consumes molten metals and produces plates at a 2:1 ratio (two plates per ingot). So your gears get cheaper to produce. Said machines (both of them) can get speed upgrades to produce them faster.
Not what we're discussing but it sounds more or less interesting. A lot like the Metal Former from IC2 perhaps.

However, the only thing that really needs gears right now is Thermal Expansion. No one else uses the silly things. Now, if you could build a metallurgy/smeltery type mod, and get all the tech guys to use it as components... that might be interesting. Impossible, but interesting. I suppose there's always Minetweaks or something. But my point remains: you can be as efficient at stamping out gears as much as you like. If you don't have anything they are used for, there's no point in having them.

Requiring casting for gears and the like is not going to change anything because gears are very rarely used. To make this change, you also need to do something with the output.

To get gears (and stuff like gears)


I think what's going on here is that Pyure is playing a modpack where the only way to make gears is the rather low-tech TiCo Casting Table, which seems a little incongruous with the sort of technology found in mods like EnderIO or Applied Energistics, and he wants a fancier way to make gears and such.

I think a Minetweakered recipe for the BC assembly table that turns ingots into gears for a cost of not too much RF (so it'll be faster than the smeltery, even with only one or two lasers) would solve this problem quite nicely.

I'm not trying to walk over anyone's opinions here; I have no doubt that all the new metalworking techniques employed by industry today would fit well in their own pack, perhaps one with the sort of exponentially-increasing resource requirements found in Factorio and Fortresscraft Evolved... but that's an entirely different discussion fit for its own thread.
Pretty close to bang on. So long as the method is fundamentally superior in some way. Metal efficiency is dangerous because you'll run into infinite-metal loops in a lot of cases. But the actual size of the smelter itself can be an upgrade even if nothing else changes (a single block smeltery versus the nice tico multiblock if you can tolerate the loss of a multiblock). Overall energy efficiency perhaps. Speed is an easy potential solution. Logistical improvements. Those sorts of things.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Pretty close to bang on. So long as the method is fundamentally superior in some way. Metal efficiency is dangerous because you'll run into infinite-metal loops in a lot of cases. But the actual size of the smelter itself can be an upgrade even if nothing else changes (a single block smeltery versus the nice tico multiblock if you can tolerate the loss of a multiblock). Overall energy efficiency perhaps. Speed is an easy potential solution. Logistical improvements. Those sorts of things.
So, if I am understanding correctly, you are wanting a) no ability to just craft gears and other things in a crafting square, you want them to have to be cast, and b) that casting technique to improve past a smeltery and into something more high-tech with an increase in efficiency or speed or something.

I get what you are saying, I think, however the problem is that there aren't many subcombine items that can be smelted that exist with a purpose. Meaning you'd have to create the whatevers you are casting, then you'd have to make a use for them. This is far more than just minetweaking a single machine, this is a total and complete revamp of the entire pack, introducing subcombine parts into a wide variety of recipes to make such a casting system worth implementing. You can crank out whatzits at a rate of hundreds per second, but if you have no use for whatzits, there is no purpose for having that capacity.

It would require either a very heavily minetweaked pack or at least one 'low tech' mod which incorporates these parts in all the recipes and then adds in alternate recipes to all the other tech mods to make it something worth bothering with. Which... would be interesting, but probably not viable.
 

Pyure

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Dude I already proposed a simple fix that should work just fine for me. I'm not proposing anyone else adopt it, I'm just saying its something you can use if the idea of using antiquated tech in the information age bothers you.

I haven't investigated it yet, but I imagine thermalexpansion.Transposer.addFillRecipe will do what I'm interested in, especially if there's a way to use the existing TiCo casts without consuming them.
 

Someone Else 37

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Dude I already proposed a simple fix that should work just fine for me. I'm not proposing anyone else adopt it, I'm just saying its something you can use if the idea of using antiquated tech in the information age bothers you.

I haven't investigated it yet, but I imagine thermalexpansion.Transposer.addFillRecipe will do what I'm interested in, especially if there's a way to use the existing TiCo casts without consuming them.
That'd be easy to do using sacrificial casts, but I'm not sure if there's a way to make the fluid transposer consume fluid, but not the item. For reusable casts, you'd probably have to add a transposer recipe to create a custom "filled cast" item, which could then would have to be processed in another machine (pulveriser? crafting table?) to extract the gear from the cast.

For that matter, it might be possible to make casts containers that can store fluids like buckets do. Then you wouldn't have to explicitly add any recipes to the Fluid Transposermat all- just a crafting recipe that takes a filled cast and returns a metal item and an empty cast. At that point, you wouldn't need the transposer or even an actual, physical cast at all if you use a cyclic assembler. It'd work like the "fresh water" items in Pam's Harvestcraft.
 
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Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
If you want more advanced casting, why not make other machine components via casting? RL components like gearboxes and motor casings are cast (certainly the ones I deal with).

More complex '3D' casts would necessitate some of the more complex/newer casting techniques as illustrated above. (making TE machine casings using wax and sand)
--if you want to be really fancy, the filled cast is actually a placable block which drops the cast item when broken in world--

Though I think the smeltary is more a crude machine for melting down metals (rather than casting itself)- you could use a magma crucible later on, especially if you add some lore about finer levels of heat control and precision melting of certain alloy blends.
 
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ShneekeyTheLost

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If you want more advanced casting, why not make other machine components via casting? RL components like gearboxes and motor casings are cast (certainly the ones I deal with).

More complex '3D' casts would necessitate some of the more complex/newer casting techniques as illustrated above. (making TE machine casings using wax and sand)
--if you want to be really fancy, the filled cast is actually a placable block which drops the cast item when broken in world--

Though I think the smeltary is more a crude machine for melting down metals (rather than casting itself)- you could use a magma crucible later on, especially if you add some lore about finer levels of heat control and precision melting of certain alloy blends.
So use the magma crucible to melt down metals (much like a puddling hearth would do in the modern era) and feed that molten metal to another machine to do the casting? That could work. I even have an idea about how to do it using the fluid transposer, just use investment casting.

You create a wax mold based on a piece (so you may have to manually tool one before you can start this process), combine that with sand will get you the 'investment mold <part>', which is then consumed with the molten metal to make the cast part. Sand is renewable, wax is renewable, so you can easily reproduce them (use a Cyclic Assembler as a mold stamper?) for higher-tech casting on the fly.
 
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Azzanine

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There are two mods that I know of that let you melt metals in a magma Crucible. There's Thermal Casting which as far as i can tell just casts metal blocks. And Thermal Smeltery which pulls in all detected TiCo metal melting recipes in to the Magma Crusible.
As for casting tool parts I presume nobody has done it because you can just auto output in to casting tables and basins. They are pretty fast when you aren't using faucets.

Frankly I think TiCo or another addon mod should add induction coils that use RF rather then lava as fuel.
You should have to upgrade the regular smeltery controller. Put it in the middle of the crafting space with invar in the corners steel on the top and sides and a leadstone cell frame (redstone block in lieu of that) at the bottom. This will then turn it In to an induction smeltery.
You then need to add heating elements crafted in a tnt pattern where the gun powder is seared bricks and sand being copper. Power will be fed in to the controller or if more convenient a separate power port.
It will follow the same smeltery rules only diff being coils determine power consumption and heat generated. Too many coils should also make it hazardous to be near. The Induction Controller could even have a slot for carbon to make steel. The same mod could even add a sort of solid fuel burner so you can use coal as a fuel source. But Tinkers Steelworks fills that space rather well, at least when it's being developed.

Because to me the dinkiest part of TiCo os that you have to use lava to fuel your smeltery. I'm sure that was done to gate it somehow behind getting a bucket meaning you have to smelt some iron first. No ore doubling right off the bat with just clay, gravel, sand and cooked logs. Like some basic metalurgy had to be learned first. But this could be gated by making the fuel box require metals.

Edit; for clarification the coils would be smeltery parts.

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bigyihsuan

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There are two mods that I know of that let you melt metals in a magma Crucible. There's Thermal Casting which as far as i can tell just casts metal blocks. And Thermal Smeltery which pulls in all detected TiCo metal melting recipes in to the Magma Crusible.
As for casting tool parts I presume nobody has done it because you can just auto output in to casting tables and basins. They are pretty fast when you aren't using faucets.
Thermal Smeltery also adds in some blocks for auto-casting ingots/tool parts/etc. I haven't personally tried them; I've only ever seen them in NEI. But i'm guessing you could use Thermal Smeltery to make gears automatically in IE:E, if it doesn't utterly wreck the balance.