The simplest item distribution

[Bihlbo]

When I was getting started with FTB one of the things totally new to me and difficult to comprehend was item distribution and moving things from one container to another. Buildcraft pipes were where I started, but they are fairly simple when compared to Redpower (I seriously still cannot remember the names of all the machines that interact with pipes, I have to look them up every time). So I started looking at guides and stuff, and experimenting.

One thing I came across in just fiddling around is the simple loop. The items in a chest are pumped out with a wooden transport pipe, sent through cobblestone transport pipes to the destination, but in order to keep excess items from dropping on the ground, continue the pipe back to the original chest. All it takes is one redstone engine and the cheapest pipes, without a need for anything expensive like gates, diamond pipes, or options from other mods. And it works dandy! If there's no room in a chest the item doesn't try to enter the chest, so it loops back around until the usage catches up. I have a bunch of coke ovens being fed this way and it's flawless and cheap.

But then I got to wondering. I've never seen a video where someone did this. I've never seen it in a guide. I've never seen someone say, "Well, if you want to graduate past the nerd loop to something high-tech, do this." Is that because it's the neanderthal way of doing pipes? Is it laggy? Is there some other downside I'm missing? Or is it just so basically obvious to everyone that it's beneath mentioning?

 

[Trunks9809]

Short answer: It's laggy.

Longer answer: Because you're still rendering the items in the pipes, its causes lag for as long as those items are moving around... So if you had a loop where they go round and round and round till space frees up (However long that is), you're rending all those items/stacks of items for that whole time.

 

[slay_mithos]

That is a good early game solution, but when you can, having things like a diamond gate directly on the destination (to force inside if possible, rather than the random), as well as iron gates+pipe wire really helps to have way less items in transit.

While items in pipes and tubes don't affect as much as they do when simply on the ground, they still impact the server part a bit (SSP does have a server now too). Having just 1 or 2 items is not bad, but your setup could backfire quite heavily on you because a redstone engine pumps items way faster than your coke oven can handle them, so there are a lot of items flowing in pipes needlessly. Add to that the fact that you don't stop the engine when there is no place in the oven, and you have a constant flow of items in your pipes.

But at least you are not throwing things on the ground, so that's at least that, I guess.
Just make sure not ever fill your input chest, or it could go ugly very fast, when you reach the max item per pipe (constant explosions, causing a lot of client lag).

 

[DoctorOr]

An alternative to the loop is the iron pipe bounceback.

1.5.1 has TE reintroduce insertion pipes, and a new mod from chickenbones gives us translocators which provide quick movement of items across a single block, but only when the recipient has room.

To be honest, I never knew buildcraft pipes would explode excess items until it was recently shown in a mindcrack video.

 

[PonyKuu]

The other reason why people (like me) don't like that solution is because it's messy and ugly. And takes a lot of space. And slow. RP solution is much easier - a filter/transposer -> tube -> inventory. It's not perfect since items bounce back and forth but they will never spill out and so on.
Ideal solution - AE. There are simply no item movement.

And why do you struggle to remember what RP machines do, since their names are much more intuitive than "wooden pipe" "fancy bricks pipe" or "Holy planks of SirSengir pipe"?

 

[natnif36]

It's things that have more complicated movement, such as the Retrieveulator from tube stuff.
And I think the OP wasn't saying that he knew what transposers, retrievers and filters / sorting machines are, or how to use them, he was simply saying that he couldn't provide you with a comprehensive list and description of each of the various machines. Do things like explain the regulator for example, pretty clear what its meant to do, to regulate items, however how it does this and understanding the GUI is something that can be VERY difficult to pick up without consulting help.

 

[Zjarek_S]

When you put golden pipes it shouldn't be bad, items will go back and forth as needed and when items are coming back to chest there won't be problem with accumulating them in pipes. 2 worlds ago I automated coke ovens with closed system around all coke ovens (4 was enough for me) with equal chance for item to go to each of them, with iron pipes ending on each input to coke oven and before chest. It pumped coal only when any coke oven was empty and thanks to golden pipes this trigger was satisfied rather quickly and it was cheap (1 autharchic iron gate and 4 normal ones). Another good option of automating coke ovens would be to use carts, then you have only one thing to render.

 

[PonyKuu]

It's things that have more complicated movement, such as the Retrieveulator from tube stuff.
And I think the OP wasn't saying that he knew what transposers, retrievers and filters / sorting machines are, or how to use them, he was simply saying that he couldn't provide you with a comprehensive list and description of each of the various machines. Do things like explain the regulator for example, pretty clear what its meant to do, to regulate items, however how it does this and understanding the GUI is something that can be VERY difficult to pick up without consulting help.

Well, even basic machines can replace BC almost in every single case. Bad things happen when you are using RP with Forestry that put correct items into correct slots with BC and doing some "Input herp to the top and derp to the bottom, then output herpaderp from the east" nonsence with RP.

 

[Bihlbo]

It's things that have more complicated movement, such as the Retrieveulator from tube stuff.
And I think the OP wasn't saying that he knew what transposers, retrievers and filters / sorting machines are, or how to use them, he was simply saying that he couldn't provide you with a comprehensive list and description of each of the various machines. Do things like explain the regulator for example, pretty clear what its meant to do, to regulate items, however how it does this and understanding the GUI is something that can be VERY difficult to pick up without consulting help.

Yeah, I eventually learned how to use them. But still, every time I set out to lay some pipe I can't remember the names of the box I'm putting my pipe in. I have to look up Redpower and get a list just to remember that the block that does X is called Y, then I can find the recipe. Just a memorization failure on my part, but something could have been done to make it easier to search for the things.

Ideal solution - AE. There are simply no item movement.
And why do you struggle to remember what RP machines do, since their names are much more intuitive than "wooden pipe" "fancy bricks pipe" or "Holy planks of SirSengir pipe"?

What's AE?
Nothing's easier than typing "pipe" in NMI to get all the pipes. Redpower's items are all unique - you might be able to figure out kind of what they do based on the name, unlike a sandstone pipe or something, but that doesn't make it easier to remember the name.

Also, I just kind of don't like RP in general. Not because it doesn't work, but I don't like having to make a special machine to make a unique thing that has to be cut with diamonds and made into another special thing just to make a block that does very little. Compare that to Buildcraft where the only special thing you might want to do is set up some lasers to make gates. RP treats itself as too precious by half. Then again, I've always gotten the impression it was intended from the beginning to be a stand-alone mod and trying to play Minecraft with more mods than Redpower is Doing It Wrong.

When you put golden pipes it shouldn't be bad, items will go back and forth as needed and when items are coming back to chest there won't be problem with accumulating them in pipes.
...
Another good option of automating coke ovens would be to use carts, then you have only one thing to render.

I have maybe a couple of places where I've used golden pipes. Otherwise I just don't see the point, because they don't do what you say - items go back and forth in golden pipes just like other pipes, not only "as needed."

With the other comments about why BC pipes are laggy, your advice for using a cart is very helpful. When I run into a renderglut problem I'll try to remember that. I might be getting close, because 14 ovens with a constant feed of logs going through all the pipes interconnecting them and still depositing a steady stream back into the buffer chest where they came out is probably 3 stacks of wood being rendered in a pipe.

 

[PonyKuu]

What's AE?
Nothing's easier than typing "pipe" in NMI to get all the pipes. Redpower's items are all unique - you might be able to figure out kind of what they do based on the name, unlike a sandstone pipe or something, but that doesn't make it easier to remember the name.

Also, I just kind of don't like RP in general. Not because it doesn't work, but I don't like having to make a special machine to make a unique thing that has to be cut with diamonds and made into another special thing just to make a block that does very little. Compare that to Buildcraft where the only special thing you might want to do is set up some lasers to make gates. RP treats itself as too precious by half. Then again, I've always gotten the impression it was intended from the beginning to be a stand-alone mod and trying to play Minecraft with more mods than Redpower is Doing It Wrong.

AE is Applied Energistics.
NEI doesn't say you what each pipe does. I see an "emerald pipe". What do I have to do? Go to BC wiki. Oh, it's not from BC, it's from TE. RP Machines at least have names that able to tell you it. Yes, you have to know their names. But it isn't that hard to remember basic machines such as Transposer, Filter, Block Breaker, Deployer, Relay, Sorting Machine and Retriever.
And they just generally better. "Special machines" from RP do a lot. Transposer is not just a wooden pipe, it is an item picker (obsidian pipe), a tube valve and, yes, an item extractor. It's far more convenient and has a lot of uses. Filter is an upgraded transposer - it can also filter items and paint them. Saying that mod is bad because I can't remember what items do is not a good point.
Yes RP was kinda intended to be played on it's own. And it has some issues because it sometimes doesn't go well with other mods. But that doesn't make its machines and transport network bad.

 

[Zjarek_S]

I have maybe a couple of places where I've used golden pipes. Otherwise I just don't see the point, because they don't do what you say - items go back and forth in golden pipes just like other pipes, not only "as needed."

Golden pipes + iron gates. When items travel faster, the condition "send items if any coke oven is empty" is resolved faster than using only stone pipes and there is a lot bigger risk that all coke ovens will get full and items will be still traveling in pipe (I made closed system, without return to chest). Also when you use iron pipes with redstone to control flow, they don't won't to be switched when item is traveling through them (they can drop items there), so higher speed of items is beneficial. It shouldn't affect lag on server side in non-gated systems because it calculates only when item is entering and leaving pipe and there is the same amount of those actions for a given path, not speed, but it increases number of items rendered client side at a given moment. Also I like seeing my items flying through pipes and with stone ones they crawl.

 

[KirinDave]

There are a ton of other options out there for moving lots of entities in a safe way. One exciting development soon due for release is that MFR conveyors are getting more and more performant over time, and that system can handle a ton of excess. In 1.5.* it's possible to build systems that turn themselves off when their buffer inventories are full, but sadly very few people will enter that level of complexity.

There are other mods with push-only-and-don't overflow functionality. Thaumcraft, Immibis's Infinitubes, Forge Extras, and Thermal Expansion all have tools to build systems that don't overflow. MineFactory Reloaded can sort of do it as well. Really it only comes up occasionally though. Most systems let you "tune" their output. Quarries come to mind as tools that don't, and so you need to be careful in that case. Another common culprit is Steve's Carts.

The simple solution is to throw away stuff once your buffer gets full. This is very easy to do in 1.5.1, you need a pair of comparators, a pair of redstone torches and an iron pipe. You simply have a buffer chest and use the comparator output from that chest coupled with a maxed out redstone signal into a not gate to flip the iron pipe into your item destroyer.

 

[Bihlbo]

Saying that mod is bad because I can't remember what items do is not a good point.

Woah friend, I did NOT say it's a bad mod. I don't have to like it just because it's good, and I can dislike it even if it's not bad. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[whizzball1]

The least laggiest option would be to send items through a filter loop. Filter from chest, leads into another chest. Another filter tries pulling that item. If it does not have space, another filter pulls out item and sends it to another chest. So on. No item rendering at all. The only rendering is the filter turning red and back.

 

[Bigglesworth]

Buildcraft pipes were where I started, but they are fairly simple when compared to Redpower

Other way around. You arnt required to remember the machine names nor are you required to use all the machines. BC pipes leak. RP can lag if done in bulk. BC pipes have gates and wires, RP has tubes with bultin redstone and machines/colored tubing ability. BC has 1000 differant fucking pipes that do different things, RP has machine that do all of the same.

RP is much easier to work with, but if you haven't spent enough time with it to even remember the machine names, you might not know that.. just sayn

Woah friend, I did NOT say it's a bad mod. I don't have to like it just because it's good, and I can dislike it even if it's not bad. Don't put words in my mouth.

Now you insult his family with such slander and mod hate?


The only repentance is to commit Seppuku! I kid.

 

[Bihlbo]

Other way around. You arnt required to remember the machine names nor are you required to use all the machines. BC pipes leak. RP can lag if done in bulk. BC pipes have gates and wires, RP has tubes with bultin redstone and machines/colored tubing ability. BC has 1000 differant fucking pipes that do different things, RP has machine that do all of the same.

BC: 2 cobblestone, 2 wood, and 2 glass. Then a piston, some sticks and wood, and another piece of glass. I'm ready to go within 20 minutes of starting a game.
RP: What? I gotta build an alloy furnace just to get started? meh.

Call that whatever. I called it "more complicated". Let's call it "Plurpin" instead. RP is more Plurpin.

 

[PonyKuu]

That's just not a good approach. But that's your choice.

 

[Ember Quill]

Thaumcraft, Immibis's Infinitubes, Forge Extras, and Thermal Expansion all have tools to build systems that don't overflow.

What is Forge Extras? I've never heard of it and can't find anything about it anywhere.

 

[KirinDave]

What is Forge Extras? I've never heard of it and can't find anything about it anywhere.

The somewhat obliquely named Extra Utilities

 

[Ember Quill]

The somewhat obliquely named Extra Utilities

Ah, okay. I knew about that mod. I thought you were talking about some other (apparently nonexistent) mod.