The Perfect Energy System

[SpitefulFox]

I've been seeing, and maybe contributing, a lot of criticism towards the EU and MJ systems and some of the new changes coming out, and that got me wondering:

What would make a good energy system? I'm curious to see what people think would make for a good system as opposed to hearing what people hate about existing systems.

Most importantly, though, is what would make a fun energy system to play with.

 

[SatanicSanta]

Mekanism and the other UE mods are very fun to play with. Also, there was a thread a few days back in the gen. FTB chat about what an electrician would like to see in a mod, and that was an energy system that actually follows RL power. Something I think would be pretty cool would be to generate power, and, like in real life, you need an AC/DC adapter before the cables reach the machine. Also, smaller cables that have gravity could be pretty cool, cables that require things to hold them up.

 

[Brilliance]

I'll definitely second the preference for a more involved power system. AC/DC, large multiblock transformers, and importantly, a reason to use them. The present trend has been along the lines of 'there's a bad cable and a good cable, and we're going to limit your use of the good cable by making it more expensive', which always seemed unimaginative to me. I'd rather have the limiting factor be the hulking transformer station you need to convert down to a usable amperage!

I'd also like more focus on interesting generation options. The RP and BTW wind turbine / wind mill are good examples, as is the BTW water mill. Steam boilers and Atomic Science fission reactors are as well, I suppose GregTech and Atomic Science fusion reactors, too. In essence, if something is going to a significant amount of power, I'd much rather have it be a cool spinning thing which makes some sort of 'real' sense, rather than a single block hidden in a wall somewhere.

Actually, I think my overall theme here is that I wouldn't mind if power systems took more space at the generation and processing points, and less at transfers (redpower-like cables). In a way my perfect power system already exists, it's just spread out over 5-6 mods which don't like each other very much, and / or have absurd conversion rates. Heck, the other night I was toying with a Mekanism hydrogen generator, and found that just by changing the output type it was either very good or downright power negative. Silliness.

Also, I want multiblock structures which look nice, but aren't necessarily stupidly expensive to make. Because I quite like having a reason to make an actual 'power room'.

 

[SpitefulFox]

I'd also like more focus on interesting generation options. The RP and BTW wind turbine / wind mill are good examples, as is the BTW water mill. Steam boilers and Atomic Science fission reactors are as well, I suppose GregTech and Atomic Science fusion reactors, too. In essence, if something is going to a significant amount of power, I'd much rather have it be a cool spinning thing which makes some sort of 'real' sense, rather than a single block hidden in a wall somewhere.

Yeah, I like those kind of power gens. The big thing for me is that you look at them and go "Now THIS is generating power!" It's nice for generation to look big and impressive. At least, for me.

 

[Loufmier]

well, it`s definitely not EU. UE mods are probably closest, without universal cable and with electric expansion cables and transformers.

 

[dgdas9]

Nothing is perfect.

 

[Hydra]

I think you either don't bother with making it realistic and focus on usability and how well the server copes (Thermal Expansion conduits) or you create a proper simulation. However, the latter is complex and probably computationally intensive. Most attempts sofar were far from realistic. Stuff like voltages dropping off significantly every few meters just makes me want to not use the system at all.

 

[Omicron]

I'm partial to blutricity, particularly because it mirrors real electricity a lot. The big downside is that as a power system it is in its infancy (barely a handful of consumers) even within the one mod that supports it.

I've also tried looking at Universal Electricity once, which aims for a similar concept. Unfortunately, while it had massively more content than Redpower, the implementation was in many cases shoddy, undocumented and unintuitive, and there was not even a semblance of balance between the various mods implementing the UE API. That was some five months ago. Maybe I should give it another whirl soon, to see if things have settled.

As far as interesting and unique concepts go, though, you should definitely take a look at RotaryCraft. That was also still a tenuously functional alpha when I looked at it last, but rest assured that you'll have to completely rethink everything you know about power generation and distribution - in a very cool way!

 

[SatanicSanta]

I'm partial to blutricity, particularly because it mirrors real electricity a lot. The big downside is that as a power system it is in its infancy (barely a handful of consumers) even within the one mod that supports it.

I've also tried looking at Universal Electricity once, which aims for a similar concept. Unfortunately, while it had massively more content than Redpower, the implementation was in many cases shoddy, undocumented and unintuitive, and there was not even a semblance of balance between the various mods implementing the UE API. That was some five months ago. Maybe I should give it another whirl soon, to see if things have settled.

As far as interesting and unique concepts go, though, you should definitely take a look at RotaryCraft. That was also still a tenuously functional alpha when I looked at it last, but rest assured that you'll have to completely rethink everything you know about power generation and distribution - in a very cool way!

Mekanism is also a pain in NEI, since for reasons I'm unsure of, all of the items are gray and all whacky looking, I don't know how to explain it...

Also, HydroCraft is pretty interesting.

 

[Hydra]

I'm partial to blutricity, particularly because it mirrors real electricity a lot.

Yeah, but the cable losses are rediculous, making it almost unusable.

 

[SpitefulFox]

As far as interesting and unique concepts go, though, you should definitely take a look at RotaryCraft. That was also still a tenuously functional alpha when I looked at it last, but rest assured that you'll have to completely rethink everything you know about power generation and distribution - in a very cool way!

Wow! Good find! :O Not only does it look cool, but it sounds like the mod author is going the "Challenge requires skill, not resources" route of mod balance.

 

[Brilliance]

I think you either don't bother with making it realistic and focus on usability and how well the server copes (Thermal Expansion conduits) or you create a proper simulation. However, the latter is complex and probably computationally intensive. Most attempts sofar were far from realistic. Stuff like voltages dropping off significantly every few meters just makes me want to not use the system at all.

Agreed. The whole 'if you use this cable to go more than 5 blocks, you're an idiot' gets on my nerves, too. I suppose it's an attempt to scale the real thing down to something that can be felt in the small scope of minecraft bases, but it still blows. I would point out, though, that there's a difference between not going for least system-intense performance and not caring about performance at all. IC2 is the latter, but there's no rule saying you can't try and optimize the processes you've made just because you make a more complex simulation.

I don't really want a true-to-life simulation, but I think it's still possible to make voltage conversion and generation more meaningful without completely throwing in the towel. I mentioned railcraft boilers as an example of 'good' generation, because although easily automated, they feel more like something you have to construct and set going. The end result is of course no different from, say, a buildcraft engine (at least a hypothetical buildcraft engine that never just stops working for no reason), but it has shiny gages and temperatures and pressures which just makes me feel like something is actually happening. I like it when things look / feel active.

On the power network side of things, I just don't know. TE is excellent for its usefulness and versatility, and I wouldn't mind a version of that network with power differentiation and flow limitations on different types of conduits. I'm not sure that would be enough to change the feel of it, though.

Mekanism is also a pain in NEI, since for reasons I'm unsure of, all of the items are gray and all whacky looking, I don't know how to explain it...

Unable to confirm, they work just fine to me both in the Ampz pack and Schneekey's pack.

 

[Belone]

As far as interesting and unique concepts go, though, you should definitely take a look at RotaryCraft. That was also still a tenuously functional alpha when I looked at it last, but rest assured that you'll have to completely rethink everything you know about power generation and distribution - in a very cool way!

I meant to download Rotary Craft yesterday and have a play with it, but then totally forgot. is the power system as difficult as the author says? I'm all for uber-realistic power systems, but I'm also acutely aware of the fact Minecraft is played in large parts by children who may struggle with overly complex power systems.

 

[SpitefulFox]

Also, HydroCraft is pretty interesting.

Do you have a link? I tried googling it and all I got was some Modloader mod that adds the usual "New weapons and armor material!" that every fledgling modder tries to do.

 

[SatanicSanta]

Do you have a link? I tried googling it and all I got was some Modloader mod that adds the usual "New weapons and armor material!" that every fledgling modder tries to do.

Yeah sure. http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic...g-a-new-purpose-to-water-pre-alpha-download/}
Also, I just noticed that it got into the Technic pack. The mod is still in Pre-Alpha and a bit buggy. (Also the mod spotlight on the post is by a friend of mine )

 

[SpitefulFox]

I've also tried looking at Universal Electricity once, which aims for a similar concept. Unfortunately, while it had massively more content than Redpower, the implementation was in many cases shoddy, undocumented and unintuitive

Yup. Lack of documentation is what keeps me away from UE. Same goes for Electrodynamics. Nothing infuriates me more than a mod that expects me to try it out without even knowing what's in it.

 

[Antice]

My dream implementation of a power system for minecraft, would be one where machines like macerators/pulverizers had to be connected to an engine trough some kind of power coupling, (like a drive shaft and gear assembly)
making electricity should require not only some kind of engine/turbine, but also a dynamo. transformers would also be needed ofc.

make the system tiered,
the bottom tier would be to use animals and wooden gear assemblies to provide a low amount of power to your ore grinder. enough to slowly grind ore into dust, or to run a pump for pumping up liquids. a wood & canvas windmill or waterwheel would also be an option.

tier 2, or steam engines would only require iron for the most part, but would take up more room than later power sources, a firebox + boiler for the steam, then pipes to transfer steam to the steam pistons,(witch in turn would drive a driveshaft) it would only take a hammer and an anvil to make the components. blacksmith work so to say.
entry level is an anvil and a smeltery for casting parts.

for the more advanced tier 3 IC engines one would need better tools, and more of them. including the capability of making wires for the engine electric system. it would have to have a fuel tank attached. the entry level machine for making IC engines would be a wire mill for the wires.
Once you have the wiremill, you can add machines for making coils and transformers, thus opening up the option of making electric engines.
the big advantage of the electric system is compactness in your factory. the power generator can with this system be somewhere else, and energy is then transferred to a single block sized engine attached to the side of the machine instead of needing gear assemblies and such for power transfer.


I can't mod tho, so unless someone else makes this it won't happen. but i can dream can't I?

 

[Succubism]

I really don't want to poke the bear in the cage, but I don't think players would allow there to be a "perfect" system.
Everything has to be challenging, labor intensive or tedious in some way or another.

I suppose it goes by your definition of "perfect".

 

[Omicron]

Yeah, but the cable losses are rediculous, making it almost unusable.

That's precisely why I said that the power system is very unfinished. You can clearly see room for expansion everywhere - on the generation side, on the transmitting side, and one the consumer side.

However, "unusable" is a huge exaggeration. I've previously used a single thermopile and two battery boxes worth of buffer storage to supply 12 sorting machines, 3 retrievers, a blulectric furnace, a blulectric alloy furnace and a blutricity charging bench (admittedly with no usage beyond the screwdriver), spread out all over a 23x23 building. You need to build it differently from other power systems... most systems tolerate loops at best or break down from them at worst. But blutricity benefits greatly from multiple cables going to the same endpoint, because then each cable has less amps going through it, which costs less voltage. Simply by having a closed ring around the house instead of an end-to-end cable dramatically cut down on my voltage issues and allowed me to power all my devices just fine.

If UE is implemented properly, it should mirror that behavior, by the way, since it's a fundamental principle of physics.

 

[Hydra]

That's precisely why I said that the power system is very unfinished. You can clearly see room for expansion everywhere - on the generation side, on the transmitting side, and one the consumer side.

However, "unusable" is a huge exaggeration. I've previously used a single thermopile and two battery boxes worth of buffer storage to supply 12 sorting machines, 3 retrievers, a blulectric furnace, a blulectric alloy furnace and a blutricity charging bench (admittedly with no usage beyond the screwdriver), spread out all over a 23x23 building.

That's all fine, but if you want to use something that uses a lot of power (like the engines) you notice the issue with the system. For 'real' power setups (the ones we currently use BC and IC power for) it's pretty much useless.