The "Balance" Standard

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RandomMoped

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Nov 17, 2012
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I'm pretty sure almost every single person in the minecraft modding community thinks something is either overpowered or underpowered. Every single day I see these threads being made (I made one myself) but what I never do see is what the players definition of their balance standard.

Basically, if something is said to be overpowered, a lot of the time it's not compared to what it's overpowering against, and vise versa.

So I was wondering; where does everyone's standard lie for things (e.g, gaining certain items)
 

Guswut

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Jul 29, 2019
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So I was wondering; where does everyone's standard lie for things (e.g, gaining certain items)

I don't waste my time with any such thing. I play the game, and enjoy it. If something is too easy, when I play through the next time, I don't do that. If something is too difficult, I avoid that as well.

The important thing is not if something is overpowered or underpowered, but if you are enjoying yourself.

I'm sure others will disagree with the former, but no one can disagree with the latter.
 

Harvest88

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Jul 29, 2019
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Yea getting tired of those thread there are configs for a reason.. Don't like your reactor is putting out passive power despite being annoying to pull everything together and all that space and risk of your base vanishing? just buff it like I did. I buffered it to 20x output so now I think it's actually worth the trouble and something OP disable that or adjust it. Don't like those 512eu ticking solar panels? Make them less outputting or disable them.
 

Whovian

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Jul 29, 2019
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Standard 1)
If Greg says it's balanced, I use it. Otherwise, I don't.

Standard 2)
I play TerraFirmaCraft. Everything's balanced there.

Standard 3)
Mk III Collectors are perfectly balanced. Anything better than them is poorly balanced.
 

YX33A

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Jul 29, 2019
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Personally? I draw no such lines unless I end up only using one method and it's both cheap and insanely good. Then I compare it to other systems I could use for the same task.
Then? I try to decide which one is cooler, and throw "balance" and "efficiency" right out the fucking window and make a more fun system. Because I'm playing a FUCKING SANDBOX GAME! The point is to have fun. If the cost of something compared to how good it is makes it less fun, I either don't bother with it, or if it's the only option, go nuts and try to find other options before considering suggesting a change to how much it costs.

Kind of why I had no problems with EE2. I never used Collectors. I focused on expanding my list of things I could transmute things into, and if I needed a boost in EMC, I chucked stuff in that thing which turns things into EMC for a Klein Star. Collectors were no fun for me, because it was BORING to just build a giant system to crap out tons of Redmatter every second. I used then for the occasional "hey I want to test a mod but can't find enough of item X, but it has a EMC Value?" issue, I admit, but even that was too much. And again, boring for traditional use.

The point of Minecraft to me is to have fun. EE2 has some really fun toys for this. I loved killing creepers left and right, and the rings were very useful for all of their uses. I miss, well, all of them. The Archangel's Smite the most, though. I loved the autofire mode, and the fact that it needed only EMC to fire? Music to my ears.
 

ICountFrom0

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Aug 21, 2012
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Single player, and not comparing yourself to anybody else, balance is such a non-issue that I won't even watch this topic.
(if you don't like it, don't use it)

Multi-player, the only person who really should be alowed to say anything about balance is the admin of the server.
(If you don't like it, don't play there)

Sadly it is human nature to compare yourself to others, or fight over resources. This makes things hard. So, I choose not to watch.

The only way to win is not to play.
 

Lambert2191

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Jul 29, 2019
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i think the 'don't like it, don't use it' and 'no such thing as balance in SSP/Sandbox games' arguments are just so incredibly false, unimaginative and wrong. Balance does and SHOULD exist in singleplayer/sanbox games.. why the fuck wouldnt it?
 

Saice

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Jul 29, 2019
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i think the 'don't like it, don't use it' and 'no such thing as balance in SSP/Sandbox games' arguments are just so incredibly false, unimaginative and wrong. Balance does and SHOULD exist in singleplayer/sanbox games.. why the fuck wouldnt it?

I agree with this.

Balance is indeed something important.

No before you start setting me on fire let me finish.

Balance does in fact depend a bit on the what the player wants out of the game. Even though it is sand box that does not give it a blank check. Case in point Fallout 3 I'm sure you all at least heard on of it. It is basically a sand box game that has this vague suggestion of a main plot many players ignore and run around the wasteland for hours (same with skyrim). If you could start out the box in with in 30minutes have the best of everything and be max level that inblance would wreck the game for most. I do say most as I know someone is going to pipe in and say how the love being god like. Now MC is not on the same scale as Fallout but it still needs some sort of balance. And there is a creative mode should that work better for you.
 

Poppycocks

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Jul 29, 2019
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Lego isn't a good simile, as everything happens in your head when you play with it. You make up the heroes, you make up the villains, you create the scenario and balance everything around yourself. When playing with lego's it's you who makes all of the rules.

This is not the case with minecraft. It has a very specific set of rules which you have to follow to play it. Mods change these rules substantially. They change the dangers and they change the rewards.

What is balanced for me then? Something that extrapolates the vanilla game balance. Something that keeps the ratio between work/danger and reward the same even though the actual work/danger and rewards change.
 

slay_mithos

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Jul 29, 2019
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To me, Minecraft is not really a sandbox, because it does have clear goals and progression.

Now that this is out off the way, balance in single player games (no matter the type, sandbox, rpg, puzzle...) is a set of rules that are placed on the game. Usually, those rules come with associated rewards, and the whole game is made so that the player enjoys the game.
If the game is felt "too easy" by someone, he/she might not enjoy it as much. The same is also valid for "too hard".

But these "too easy" and "too hard" are entirely subjective definitions, someone good at plateformers can find Meat Boy easy, where others that are not used to having to be really precise will find it hard quite early.
I choose an example that is not Minecraft, because the lines are easier to see, but it's the same here.

Remember, when you first started playing? There are good chances that you were scared of the first nights, so much so that there were a lot of guides on how to survive it. For many people, it was even a goal on a checklist, to have a safe haven when the sun sets down for the first time.
Was it that the first few nights were too hard?

And what about caving without armour, always looking out for skeletons and creepers?

Experienced players will have set strategies to deal with such things, making surviving the first night reall an easy thing to do, even without bothering about hiding. Does it means that the game is too easy?


As it was rightfully said above, the "right" balance in single player is what is felt like such by the player. Different people will feel that some things are too easy, some others too hard, and play accordingly, in order to enjoy their time.

In a multi-player environment, it's a bit more complex, because you need to think about the enjoyment of everyone, not just of one or a sub-group of people.
Usually, it goes either to a majority, or to the ones actually paying and/or maintaining the servers, because they are the ones investing time or money in order for them and others to enjoy their time.

If you don't enjoy your time, you might want to change how you are playing, either changing the configuration files when available, or changing what mods you are playing with.
I said it before, and I'll probably say it again, but it is so easy to install, uninstall and update mods now, even more with tools like MultiMC. Of course, you need to work a bit on the configs to have all IDs not conflict.
FTB, as well as other mod packs, present you with a "ready to play" package, but that comes with the cost of it being tuned around what their creators think is a good balance.

If you do not agree, nothing prevents you from either changing things around, or to even make your own brew.
Constantly complaining about "balance" only works in three cases.
When the balance is set so that part of the players get an unfair advantage over others (not counting the hardware part, of course), in a competitive environment.
When a very large proportion of the community gets together against a specific problem.
When the "creators" of the content (game designers, modders, pack makers...) are willing to sacrifice their vision of how it should be.

At least, that is how I see it.

The thing is, modders will often make changes, but it is often in the light of some uses of their mod, and the changes usually go toward what they want from their mod.
Some mods try to balance against others, some go as far as changing things out of their mods, and some decide that there are way too many combinations out there, and balancing for one case would potentially loose them the players that are interested in other combinations.


... Sorry, I did it again, long post with not that much content, and a lot of personal opinions ...
 
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Saice

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... Sorry, I did it again, long post with not that much content, and a lot of personal opinions ...

Don't worry these sorts of threads are more about opinions then facts anyways.

And on the too easy too hard front I agree it is all about someones opinion and play style.

But balance still is important. it is just hard to do well. But this is why I really like mods that allow for configuration because then you can balance it to your own taste.
 
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Hoff

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To me, Minecraft is not really a sandbox, because it does have clear goals and progression.

... Sorry, I did it again, long post with not that much content, and a lot of personal opinions ...

I'll agree with this and
i think the 'don't like it, don't use it' and 'no such thing as balance in SSP/Sandbox games' arguments are just so incredibly false, unimaginative and wrong. Balance does and SHOULD exist in singleplayer/sanbox games.. why the fuck wouldnt it?
disagree with this.

There is balance, but it's not the balance most people like to talk about. It is not a balance that is universally communicable through all players because we all have different tastes and styles. Most people seem to want to let others build their game for them, which is of course fine if you wish to forfeit that ability to mod devs, pack devs, server owners, etc., but many of these same people would rather see that balance held against all players. This is truly a thing I will never understand because it has no real impact on them that someone somewhere is playing EE2 level pseud-creative but they allow it to eat at them mentally.

In this regard I will agree with Saice in that mods that allow you to make your game like a short-order cook at a fast food restaurant. In this regard minecraft, all mods included, have a long ways off before they can be truly called a perfect sandbox game because that's exactly what it would be; the ability to make the game anything you want. So yes if you don't like something, by all means, remove it. It's your game to play. So when we get down to your personal balance be it Harder than Gregorius' mod or no real balance at all(Hey it's a form of balance :p) none of it really matters as long as you enjoy what you're doing.
 

Kelmian

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Jul 29, 2019
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The balancing factor is the player's sense of accomplishment in overcoming boundaries and limitations. Sometimes I want mind numbingly easy, other times I want to be challenged to the point of rage-quitting.
 

TheSandwichMakr

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Jul 29, 2019
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The only time anything is overpowered is when you play on a public server where people abuse the mods. I prefer playing alone or with people I know in real life because I know that nobody is going to abuse the mods unless it makes the game more fun. It's just about having fun whether there is something overpowered or not. Some people have fun gaining easy accomplishments using exploits and others prefer completing more difficult tasks. If you want to define overpowered it would probably be when something makes the game so easy that it's no longer as fun or fun at all.
 
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Omicron

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My primary standard of balance lies in wanting a natural progression.

My ideal modpack is one where things get incrementally more powerful the longer I play and the more effort I invest into it. I enjoy building things up step by step - making everything out of nothing, so to speak - and being proud of the accomplishment that it represents. Therefore, I personally consider all things unbalanced that are either shortcuts (one thing allowing you to progress much faster and a lot less effort than all others, like anything involving solar power, or the first release of Thermal Expansion back in the day) or pure tedium (something taking a disproprotionate amount of effort to deal with for the benefit it gives, like the default energy cost on GregTech's matter fabricator).

In a secondary meaning, I consider things unbalancing that render gameplay redundant. There are some mods that require you to invest a lot of effort for large rewards, which in theory isn't a problem for me; but in practical application the effect they unlock is either so powerful that there is no point in continuing to play from then on, or they shatter the balance of all other mods by providing access to resources in ways and amounts that were never meant to be. I count mods like Computercraft, Steve's Carts, Extra Bees, Equivalent Exchange and Soul Shards among this group.


Keep in mind that this is my way, and your mileage may vary.
 

Lambert2191

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Because it's a sandbox game. Would you say Lego bricks are overpowered? Could you even imagine a Lego brick that could be considered overpowered?
balance should exist in a sandbox game because it's a sandbox game? Oh well done, that sort of circular reasoning would make you very popular with the church I hear they love using those kinds of arguments too!

If you don't want balance play in creative mode. But in survival mode there is certainly a need for balance or it would be no fun whatsoever. I dislike creataive mode for anything other than testing certain builds that I then build in my balanced survival mode. If survival mode lacked balance, if I was god within a few hours (EE2) it feels cheap and worthless. If I worked for it and earned it, then that feels pretty good. (Gregtech fanboys rejoice, I'm sorta agreeing with you!)
This "sandbox" argument is fucking stupid.
 

whythisname

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Jul 29, 2019
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I don't waste my time with any such thing. I play the game, and enjoy it. If something is too easy, when I play through the next time, I don't do that. If something is too difficult, I avoid that as well.

The important thing is not if something is overpowered or underpowered, but if you are enjoying yourself.

I'm sure others will disagree with the former, but no one can disagree with the latter.

I agree, games are played for fun and in the case of mods you shouldn't be doing stuff you don't enjoy.

That said, the way you play you are setting a balance standard for yourself by not doing things you consider too easy or too hard. In fact, I think it's very hard to not set a standard for yourself. I mean if you always use the easiest methods to do stuff does that mean you have no standard? or just a different standard than most other people?
I think everyone here has their own standard, even if they don't put much thought or time into it.
 

Lambert2191

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Jul 29, 2019
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*Starts new game without balance because herp derp it's a SANDBOX GAME!*
*enables bonus chests*
*opens it up*
"OH YAY! Full quant with a gravisuit, advanced diamond drill and a HV Solar hat! This non balance is so fucking awesome!"
Fuck balance!