I was not motivated enough to finish T3 or T4. Next time I play I will cheat the book rather than running around and scan all over again, even so it is easier after reading what should be done. I found it too boring move those symbols, craft more ink and combine primal aspects all over again because you have to switch on and off and all over again. OK there is mastery there so you can move runes without switching them on and off. But then you need to run with wand from one place to another. And then you need to run and collect all those aura nodes again. And then you need to run around infusion and placing staff back when if drops. And then you fight with Taunt because it is eating your world, but you did not discover right flower yet. I think Thaumcraft 4 is nice illustration how difficult Harry's life.
Thaum 4... a dichotomy.
- Thread starter DREVL
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Thaumcraft was one of my favorite mods before. I don't like the new research system at all. I tried playing around with, watched a few tutorials and was still completely lost. Trying to do it in magic farm made it even more difficult because of all the food you need to keep with you when you travel long distance.
I'm not happy about it, but I think I'll be skipping thaumcraft for a while.
I'm not happy about it, but I think I'll be skipping thaumcraft for a while.
Personally, TC4 is the worst mod in minecraft history.
There's no sense of accomplishment from getting a research, scanning nodes/random crap. No sense of "discovery". There's no re-inventing of the wheel involved. The idea of the new research system is to tell you something you, in reality, already know. "Holy meatballs of the flying spaghetti monster, this magic tree has MAGIC IN IT?" Ever since TC2, which was right at acceptable level for me, TC has gone downhill in a big way.
What Azanor is trying to accomplish, very simply, is impossible or near impossible. There is no way to create a system which must be followed that offers a way to have the same amount of "discovery" and "accomplishment" each time you start over. It's like if someone told you to build a wheel(For example sake, out of stone). This also first presumes on your prior knowledge of a wheel(While at the same time trying to engage in "discovery" lolwut?) or your ability to gain that knowledge. This is because there is only one way to make the wheel rather than personalization of what the "wheel" might be. Now there are some crazy ingenious ways you could do this, but instead they tell you that you can only use this chisel and hammer to do it by hand. So now you're basically down to the choice of how you whack at it. There's nothing personally engaging or new to it. There's no amount of discovery.
TC, to me, has always been less of a magic mod and more of a tech mod wanna be that wants a way to tier things but at the same time be "revolutionary".
E: Also the Latin names is one of the stupider choices of Azanor.
There's no sense of accomplishment from getting a research, scanning nodes/random crap. No sense of "discovery". There's no re-inventing of the wheel involved. The idea of the new research system is to tell you something you, in reality, already know. "Holy meatballs of the flying spaghetti monster, this magic tree has MAGIC IN IT?" Ever since TC2, which was right at acceptable level for me, TC has gone downhill in a big way.
What Azanor is trying to accomplish, very simply, is impossible or near impossible. There is no way to create a system which must be followed that offers a way to have the same amount of "discovery" and "accomplishment" each time you start over. It's like if someone told you to build a wheel(For example sake, out of stone). This also first presumes on your prior knowledge of a wheel(While at the same time trying to engage in "discovery" lolwut?) or your ability to gain that knowledge. This is because there is only one way to make the wheel rather than personalization of what the "wheel" might be. Now there are some crazy ingenious ways you could do this, but instead they tell you that you can only use this chisel and hammer to do it by hand. So now you're basically down to the choice of how you whack at it. There's nothing personally engaging or new to it. There's no amount of discovery.
TC, to me, has always been less of a magic mod and more of a tech mod wanna be that wants a way to tier things but at the same time be "revolutionary".
E: Also the Latin names is one of the stupider choices of Azanor.
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Like I said; personally. As much as I hate Greg I give him more credit than azanor in modding(progression wise not coding).
Tried it and wrote about it. Worked fine.
If you're sat at your computer playing minecraft, you have no time valuable enough to waste. Sorry.
Like vanilla minecraft without the wiki
Which can be altered in the config to make nodes more common depending on the average numbers of chunks per node (that you set)
Which makes you frugal with yoru vis and endeavor for armor and wand upgrades that reduce your vis usage.
I suggest skyrim.
I think many people see the mod incorrectly, as maybe did I as well. People see it as an alt mod for tools and energy, plug and play, build and go. It is sold that way. What it really is as intended it would seem, a series of mini games like forestry and bees. Slow interest and maybe RPG. I haven't a damned clue about AM2, but I have a feeling that the techies will follow along with AM2 better. It doesn't bill itself as a search of discovery. I could be wrong, but AM2 is magic mod that gives little mystery.
Again; personally. Nothing in the mod involves discovery, in terms of research/scanning, and getting those researches offers me nothing in terms of accomplishment.
Honestly, I love Azanor's implementation of research. He provides a mini-game that can be fun to puzzle with, and as a reward for your puzzling skills you progress in the mod and unlock cool items.
"Aspects are annoying to get". That may be true, but he gave multiple options to get the necessary primal aspects. The only thing I wish for on that part is an advanced Deconstruction Table where you get more yield for your items (and not just primal ones), and maybe crystals that produce primal aspects near the Research Table quicker than the current ones. There are some things to be improved on the aspect part, but there is a solid base to do everything.
I think Azanor did an amazing job on TC4 and has done everything he could to make it as flexible as possible. I am really wondering what he could do to make research better (even though a lot of anti-people here seem to think that is the same as "easier").
My tip: If you want to make research better/easier, why not develop an addon? There is a decent API to work with. If you are not willing to do the work, you shouldn't whine about it.
"Aspects are annoying to get". That may be true, but he gave multiple options to get the necessary primal aspects. The only thing I wish for on that part is an advanced Deconstruction Table where you get more yield for your items (and not just primal ones), and maybe crystals that produce primal aspects near the Research Table quicker than the current ones. There are some things to be improved on the aspect part, but there is a solid base to do everything.
I think Azanor did an amazing job on TC4 and has done everything he could to make it as flexible as possible. I am really wondering what he could do to make research better (even though a lot of anti-people here seem to think that is the same as "easier").
My tip: If you want to make research better/easier, why not develop an addon? There is a decent API to work with. If you are not willing to do the work, you shouldn't whine about it.
Research in and of itself is what is flawed, much less the implementation(imo of course).
I was hoping you weren't serious, thinking you would have been clever enough not to pull a face at the beast by publically putting down a mod in one of it's places of worship and expect not to be either proved wrong or just punched in the face.
I was wrong.
That said, I'm going to let the lions have you, I like my clean slate.
My problem with TC4 research is that I cannot scan what at first glanse seem simple objects. Apparently a piece of metal is easier to understand then a piece of grass or a tree.... (I dont get this, at all).
Then when your researching, the researches you unlock are random. As such I could get something I am not interested in. Yet I keep getting it because it uses an aspect another research I do want uses. So I go like, sure ill just do this one then, only to be like WTF actually goes in it?! It feels so bad "wasting" aspects on research I am not interested in yet keep getting :\ So ill just open up Succubisms cheat sheets, silently scream: "thank you!" and move along...
Other then that I realy do like TC, its just abit meh that it has to have research
If only it had some hints as to what aspects the new research uses...
Then when your researching, the researches you unlock are random. As such I could get something I am not interested in. Yet I keep getting it because it uses an aspect another research I do want uses. So I go like, sure ill just do this one then, only to be like WTF actually goes in it?! It feels so bad "wasting" aspects on research I am not interested in yet keep getting :\ So ill just open up Succubisms cheat sheets, silently scream: "thank you!" and move along...
Other then that I realy do like TC, its just abit meh that it has to have research
If only it had some hints as to what aspects the new research uses...
Not even sure where to begin really.
Are you claiming that expressing my opinion of TC4 is meant to invite fighting? If so; really? Is there a problem with me not liking TC4 or TC in general?
Are you also claiming its even possible for an opinion to be wrong?
And is that meant to be some kind of e-threat? I can't not like something popular without getting punched in the face? Cute.
I'll take my chances with the "lions" here(More like lions).
Do be careful; your zealot side is showing.
IMO, TC4 is a strong mod, but the way research is handled is just too cumbersome. Not the minigame, that is fine. The aspects are just too hard to gather.
In TC3 I could always take comfort in the fact that, whatever aspects I wanted to use, were ultimately replaceable. I just needed more of an item to research, and getting that was the fun part. Now, scanning a bunch of items to get knowledge from them is fine and all, but getting research points for things can be ridiculous. I went through the same first steps that everyone else:
#1: Get all the basic stuff like thaumometer and research desk.
#2: tried combining aspects for awhile to get new ones
#3: ran out of aspects faster than I could blink
#4: still couldn't research new stuff, leaving me utterly helpless and lost.
All the advice everyone gives kind of explains how much the new research system sucks, because it all amounted to "put bookcases by the shelf, then aimlessly fumble about research so slowly you'll pull your teeth out just to be entertained by something", and "wander around trying to find nodes, which are nigh invisible, really rare, and extremely hard to see". Of course I just used a cheat sheet, and once I did that I found that TC4 has a bunch of wondrous devices and tools to use that weren't that hard to get at all.
In TC3 I could always take comfort in the fact that, whatever aspects I wanted to use, were ultimately replaceable. I just needed more of an item to research, and getting that was the fun part. Now, scanning a bunch of items to get knowledge from them is fine and all, but getting research points for things can be ridiculous. I went through the same first steps that everyone else:
#1: Get all the basic stuff like thaumometer and research desk.
#2: tried combining aspects for awhile to get new ones
#3: ran out of aspects faster than I could blink
#4: still couldn't research new stuff, leaving me utterly helpless and lost.
All the advice everyone gives kind of explains how much the new research system sucks, because it all amounted to "put bookcases by the shelf, then aimlessly fumble about research so slowly you'll pull your teeth out just to be entertained by something", and "wander around trying to find nodes, which are nigh invisible, really rare, and extremely hard to see". Of course I just used a cheat sheet, and once I did that I found that TC4 has a bunch of wondrous devices and tools to use that weren't that hard to get at all.
I think what bothers a lot of people about Thaumcraft 4 is that we were expecting to like the mod. Thaumcraft 2 was awesome. It was basically a "magic" based alternative to the big 2 mods (IC2 and BC) with lots of neat machines and very original power system. Thaumcraft 3 was better in some ways and worse in others, since it dropped Thaumcraft 2's dependence on the vanilla research system, in favor of a more intuitive, but slightly more cumbersome system. And it had golem. Golems are fun. However it ended uplacking in depth since everyone pretty much did research once and then never bothered again. There wasn't a need to design any complex systems like you did for vis generation, taint purification and auto-enchanting in Thaumcraft 2. You just walked over to a cauldron, dropped in a couple blocks and walked away. But, the major thing that made Thaumcraft 3 great was the Thaumonomicon. It was intuitive, clear and showed you exactly what you needed to do to progress. Sure, you could short circuit the trial and error process by looking up a wiki, but you didn't HAVE to. You could play around and discover stuff on your own if you wanted. And there were very little times when you really felt absolutely frustrated at not knowing what to do.
Which is why a lot of people had high hopes for Thaumcraft 4. We were expecting a streamlined combination of 2 and 3. Better and more intuitive research combined with the return of taint and vis liquid transportation/power generation. Instead we have a research system that is somehow even worse than Thaumcraft 3.
Which is why a lot of people had high hopes for Thaumcraft 4. We were expecting a streamlined combination of 2 and 3. Better and more intuitive research combined with the return of taint and vis liquid transportation/power generation. Instead we have a research system that is somehow even worse than Thaumcraft 3.
This hits it pretty much on the head. There's a ton of amazing stuff in Thaumcraft 4, but unless you know exactly what you're doing it's very, very easy to get stuck and give up on the mod entirely. The problem isn't even the research system - it's all the other things surrounding the rune minigame that leads to all the hair-pulling. It's a surprising lack of polish in an otherwise very slick experience, and it makes TC4 by far the most unforgiving and frustrating TC yet. A couple weeks of beta testing, running it past new players and tracking the problems they ran into would have highlighted the issues, and tweaking a few values in the code/default config would have made for a TC4 that everyone could have loved.
It is possible to use only the doodle god minigame to find all the aspects, but it is not possible to scan only blocks and items to learn about the aspects in the world. There should be a way to gain victuus without having to play the mini game. The desconstruction table should be available right away. With those small changes, it would open up TC4 to all kinds of players. Progression is faster when you use both options, but you can progress using only one or the other if it fits your play style.
In my current game, I was having a horrible time finding any ignis for my wand to make the goggles of revealing. I could only find one node in the desert near spawn, and that didn't have any ignis. I finally found a small node in a silverwood tree that had a total of 15 ignis after traveling and searching with a thaumometer for like 1200 blocks. I know wand aspects drop from mob kills, so I previously went hunting for creepers, zombies and skeletons, for quite a while, but only managed to get 5 ignis after maxing all the other aspects in my starter wand. I figured creepers would drop ignis more often since they are made of gunpowder, but no luck. I like the fact that you can get aspects for your wand from nodes or mob kills, but it is kind of annoying when you kill a bunch of mobs and don't find what you need. So maybe a bit more balance on what aspects drop from particular mobs.
Really, those are my hangups on TC4. I like most of the other things with it just fine.
In my current game, I was having a horrible time finding any ignis for my wand to make the goggles of revealing. I could only find one node in the desert near spawn, and that didn't have any ignis. I finally found a small node in a silverwood tree that had a total of 15 ignis after traveling and searching with a thaumometer for like 1200 blocks. I know wand aspects drop from mob kills, so I previously went hunting for creepers, zombies and skeletons, for quite a while, but only managed to get 5 ignis after maxing all the other aspects in my starter wand. I figured creepers would drop ignis more often since they are made of gunpowder, but no luck. I like the fact that you can get aspects for your wand from nodes or mob kills, but it is kind of annoying when you kill a bunch of mobs and don't find what you need. So maybe a bit more balance on what aspects drop from particular mobs.
Really, those are my hangups on TC4. I like most of the other things with it just fine.
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