Steam Engine / Electrical Engine RC Balance Question

[AliasXNeo]

Just had a quick question:

RC Steam Turbine takes 160 steam/T to produce 50 EU/T
An Industrial Steam Engine takes 40 steam/tick to produce 8 MJ/T
Do some division, 40 steam/T produces approx 12.5 EU/T with the turbine
An electrical engine requires 6 EU/T to produce 2 MJ/T
Therefor, you could power approx 2 electrical engines with the same 40 steam/tick but would get 4 MJ/T instead of the 8 MJ/T offered for the same amount of steam by steam engines

Was this an intended design? I'll be upfront and say I have no idea what went behind the original balancing of the electrical engine/turbine, but this was something I noticed while playing around today.

 

[Daemonblue]

Electric engines are from a different mod from the steam engines and boilers. That said, the electric engines aren't that efficient anyway and you really shouldn't be trying to convert one power into another and then back to begin with.

 

[AliasXNeo]

Electric engines are from a different mod from the steam engines and boilers. That said, the electric engines aren't that efficient anyway and you really shouldn't be trying to convert one power into another and then back to begin with.

Of course you shouldn't be doing that. The point of this thread was referencing the balance aspect, hence the word "balance" in the topic title. The only reason I did the conversion was for comparison reasons.

Still, mod developers have not always been ignorant to balancing between other mods. In fact I feel it's something a lot of developers strive towards (it's the basis for FTB!). I was just curious if there had been an attempt made here at all.

 

[heavy1metal]

In all honesty you should get loss when converting from one power source to another, be it a little or a lot depending on the technology.
The math is easier to understand (for me anyway) when you scale up to the steam turbine's numbers instead of reducing down to the steam engine.

1x Steam turbine - 160steam = 50eu
4x Steam engines - 160steam = 32mj

Electrical engine requires 6eu to produce 2mj (without upgrades)
8x Electrical engines - 50eu = 16mj
16 Electrical engines - 100eu = 32mj

I understand where your logic is going, why can in railcraft is 50eu = 32mj, whereas in forestry 50eu is worth 16mj? The biggest answer is in Forestry you're converting straight EU to MJ, whereas in Railcraft you're converting a fuel source (steam) into either eu or mj. Conversion vs pure output. The better comparison would be the bio-generator since it's more similar to the Steam Turbine and the biogas-engine. As steam to EU is Biofuel to EU and steam to mj as biomas to mj. Steam Turbine = Bio-generator, Steam Engines = biogas engines. There's the math to do.

Here I'm not going to do the math and leave that up to you since you're more interested. The steam math seems like a lot of fun to work out to be able to compare it to biofuel/biomas. But to re-iterate - conversions should always take a hit. Railcraft is a poor comparison to the electrical engine since it is not directly converting EU to MJ or MJ to EU, it's converting steam.

 

[heavy1metal]

Was bored so I did the math. While a boiler of this size most certain is expensive, the numbers are staggering and show just how much it is worth your time to make a steam boiler.

We're going to use 1 bucket of biofuel in a steam boiler, and in a bio-generator.
biogen:
1 bucket = 16/eu per tick for 2000 ticks giving us 32,000eu

Steamboiler (32 tanks, low pressure):
1 bucket = 320 steam per tick for 8,333 ticks

Turbine:
320steam = 100eu per tick

100eu * 8,333 ticks = 833,300eu


So, spending your biofuel in a steam setup is greatly worth more... 32,000eu vs 833,000eu

 

[Daemonblue]

I was doing the number crunching in another thread here and yea, the cost to maintain the steam turbine rotors far exceed their value even at the best returns when combined with Gregtech. As mentioned in that thread, with Gregtech it takes 660 million EU worth of UU Matter to resupply the iron used to make the steel for the rotors. What I didn't mention in that thread specifically was that over the course of its lifespan that rotor, given a 41 hour run time, will only produce 147.6 million EU. What this means is that with normal IC2 and Mass Fabricators, you'd come out well ahead of the curve with an upkeep of about 6.6 million EU per turbine, but with Gregtech you're just throwing resources down a black hole with this setup.

 

[Hydra]

So, spending your biofuel in a steam setup is greatly worth more... 32,000eu vs 833,000eu

You should not be basing your calculations on the Bio generator. That thing is so horribly inefficient it's borderline broken. If you'd simply use your MJ to melt cobble into Lava and use that to fire a geothermal generator you'd end up with a 1:1 conversion of MJ into EU. So one bucket of biofuel (200k MJ) would be worth 200k EU.

 

[heavy1metal]

You should not be basing your calculations on the Bio generator. That thing is so horribly inefficient it's borderline broken. If you'd simply use your MJ to melt cobble into Lava and use that to fire a geothermal generator you'd end up with a 1:1 conversion of MJ into EU. So one bucket of biofuel (200k MJ) would be worth 200k EU.

1 bucket of biofuel in a steam boiler is 833keu vs your 200k. It's also 533kmj vs your 200k mj. 1:1 is a poor ratio when it should be more eu for the MJ you put in.

So using your ratio, in my scenario of 533kmj I'd only get 533keu, opposed to my 833keu that equals 533kmj..

 

[Daemonblue]

I don't see how you're getting 533k MJ from a single bucket of biofuel. Going by the wiki numbers without the plugin (value of 16000) it comes out to me as just above 290k, but with it doubled it's just above 580k. In fact, I'll bring those calculations from the thread I linked earlier (that I got from the wiki) into this one, and plug in the numbers.

• Base Fuel Usage Per Tick (base) = ( (3.2 - numTanks * 0.04) / ( 16 LP or 8 HP ) ) * numTanks
• Heat Adjust Fuel Usage Per Tick = base + base * (8 - 8 * heat%)
• Steam/tick = ( 10 LP or 20 HP ) * numTanks
• 1 MJ = 5 Steam

So for BFUPT for a max sized HP boiler: ((3.2 - 36*.04)/8))*36 = ((3.2 - 1.44)/8)*36 = (1.76/8)*36 = .22*36 = 7.92
For Fuel Usage Per Tick, based on max temperature: 7.92 + 7.92*(8-8*1.00) = 7.92 + 7.92*(8-8) = 7.92 + 7.92*0 = 7.92 + 0 = 7.92
For Steam/Tick: 20x36 = 720
720 Steam = 144 MJ (18 of the largest steam engines).

So we have a fuel usage of 7.92 per tick. Now, Biofuel has a base value of 16000, so you have to divide that by the fuel usage to see how many ticks that bucket lasts, so 16,000/7.92 = 2,020.2020 (the 20 repeats endlessly). From there we can convert that many ticks directly into steam or MJ, for steam it's 2020.2020*720 = 1,454,545.4545 (you see where that one's going). For MJ it's 2020.2020*144 = 290909.0909 etc. If you have the right forestry plugin (which I don't think is in FTB, but not sure) then those steam and MJ values get doubled due to Biofuel being worth 32,000 instead of 16,000.

Now comes the tricky part. As I mentioned in the other thread, that same bucket can produce about 454,545 EU (going by the 16,000 value) using a turbine. This seems like it's a deal, and considering the mods you might have installed it CAN be. The turbine's lifespan is approximately 41 hours. Now, with 20 ticks a second, 60 seconds a minute, 60 minutes an hour, and 41 hours total, it comes out to 20x60x60x41 ticks, or 2,952,000 ticks of life. During those ticks, at max speed a single turbine can produce 50 eu/tick, which comes out to 147,600,000 EU per 41 hours per turbine. Now, each turbine costs 33 steel to replace. This comes out to 17 iron ores that are then macerated and blast furnaced. For UU Matter, it takes 5 per 2 ores, for a total need of 9 * 5 UU Matter, with a few extra ingots due to the recipe. Now, with the IC2 Mass Fabricator going full blast with scrap, each UUM is 166,666 EU, and we need 45 UUM total, so it comes out to 7,499,970. So just shy of 7.5m EU for 147mil EU in duration isn't too bad. However, Gregtech takes the energy cost for UUM and multiplies it by 100. Now, I'm not sure if the value turns out to be a flat 16mil EU per UUM or if he just makes it 16,666,600 as I haven't used the Matter Fabricator, so I'll just go with the lower 16mil flat. So you'll need 16,000,000 x 45 worth of energy just for the UU M, which comes out to 720,000,000 EU to replenish a single turbine that produces 147,600,000 EU. Not looking too hot now is it? Now, during the time that single turbine is running, you could have three others also running off the same boiler, so you could get 588,000,000 EU per boiler (give or take the extra half turbine it can power, they can power 4.5). In other words, with Gregtech installed even with four turbines running, over the course of all their lives combined you cannot replenish the resources to replace even one of them.

This is why the 1:1 conversion using lava method is superior.

 

[Democretes]

In other words, with Gregtech installed even with four turbines running, over the course of all their lives combined you cannot replenish the resources to replace even one of them.

This is why the 1:1 conversion using lava method is superior.

Unless you did the logical thing and had a quarry running the entire time.

 

[Daemonblue]

Yes, but then the upkeep cuts into your ore profit, and the iron ore can be used for other things such as tracks, carts, iron tanks, or even golems. In the end though, these methods of converting MJ to EU are still inferior to the Advanced Hybrid Solar Panels that produce 512 eu/t during the day and 64 eu/t at night, and by the time you make those the turbines look even worse with their upkeep costs.

 

[Democretes]

Yes, but then the upkeep cuts into your ore profit, and the iron ore can be used for other things such as tracks, carts, iron tanks, or even golems. In the end though, these methods of converting MJ to EU are still inferior to the Advanced Hybrid Solar Panels that produce 512 eu/t during the day and 64 eu/t at night, and by the time you make those the turbines look even worse with their upkeep costs.

In the end, solar is always the way to go.

 

[heavy1metal]

In place of 36, I had used 32. If you had read my first post, you would seen where I said "32 tanks." Most likely due to poor handwriting I mistook 36 for 32.
I used 32,000 in place of 16,000
I used low pressure, to make sure biofuel lasted longer.
Our math is the same, only you ignored I used 32 - not 36, and you did not know I was going with low pressure.
(3.2-(32*.04) / 16 (LP) )* 32
((3.2-1.28) / 16) * 32
(1.92 / 16) * 32
.12 * 32
3.84 units of fuel used per tick.
10*32=320 steam units per tick
320/160= 2 turbines
2 turbines = 100eu/t

32,000 / 3.84 = 8,333.33 (3 repeating)
Total ticks for 1 bucket: 8,333
8,333*100 = 833,300

or using 16,000
4166*100=416,666

Sadly, the rotors cost 99 steel ignots, not 33. 33 makes the disc, it requires 3 discs to make a rotor.

Now, you're using UU matter to produce iron which is pretty confusing. Iron is easily found, I can get a stack of iron ~ 5-10 minutes of manually mining. UU matter is used in very specific recipes such as iridium, it's a poor way to gauge the cost of ore. I wouldn't waste the time or scrap to make iron. But I'll see if I can follow your math.

*note: keep in mind factorization can triple your ore. 33/3=11 ore required (15uu matter).

 

[Daemonblue]

Ah true, forgot about the 3 discs thing when I was looking at the wiki. Also, Factorization's tripling of ore is not efficient at all and isn't even guaranteed to actually triple it, sometimes giving more and possibly giving less (tested a full stack of ore, took about 5 crystallizers and several hours, and gave 3 stacks + 9). As for the tank size, from the wiki :

The size of the tank you can build depends on the size of the Firebox. A 1x1 Firebox can only handle a single cubic meter tank. The 2x2 can handle 8 or 12 cubic meters of Boiler Tank. And finally, the massive 3x3 can handle 18, 27, or 36 cubic meters of Boiler Tank.

So I don't see how you're building a 32 tank Boiler that uses all 32 tanks.

As for HP vs LP boilers, they have the same efficiency once fully heated up. The LP boilers produce half the steam (10 each) but use half the fuel, while the HP boilers produce twice the steam (20 each) but with double the fuel consumption. So as I said, in the end, with max heat, the fuel consumption for the steam produced is exactly the same. The only difference is the HP boilers take longer to heat up, but produce more energy for the amount of build space taken, which makes them less fuel efficient in the short term, but more space efficient in the long term.

 

[heavy1metal]

Ah true, forgot about the 3 discs thing when I was looking at the wiki. Also, Factorization's tripling of ore is not efficient at all and isn't even guaranteed to actually triple it, sometimes giving more and possibly giving less (tested a full stack of ore, took about 5 crystallizers and several hours, and gave 3 stacks + 9). As for the tank size, from the wiki :

The size of the tank you can build depends on the size of the Firebox. A 1x1 Firebox can only handle a single cubic meter tank. The 2x2 can handle 8 or 12 cubic meters of Boiler Tank. And finally, the massive 3x3 can handle 18, 27, or 36 cubic meters of Boiler Tank.

So I don't see how you're building a 32 tank Boiler that uses all 32 tanks.

As for HP vs LP boilers, they have the same efficiency once fully heated up. The LP boilers produce half the steam (10 each) but use half the fuel, while the HP boilers produce twice the steam (20 each) but with double the fuel consumption. So as I said, in the end, with max heat, the fuel consumption for the steam produced is exactly the same. The only difference is the HP boilers take longer to heat up, but produce more energy for the amount of build space taken, which makes them less fuel efficient in the short term, but more space efficient in the long term.

It's not efficient because it only takes a god awful amount of time, but in 41 hours you can definitely pump out 99...

Yea I screwed up with 32, pretty sure it's because I can't read my own hand writing. I had written it down while at work and started working it out. I did say 32, just incorrect about it being the wrong number. 36 tanks would yield more than my quoted 833keu per bucket so I was under-estimating by using 32 incorrectly

You are correct with HP vs LP - I never payed attention just immediately jumped on the recommended for efficiency. I'm not sure how much the startup cost would be, but when talking about millions of eu, even 50k would be a drop in the bucket.

**To those saying "hybrid solars" - sure, end game. Until you find iridium to even make a matterfab, it's a great deal cheaper to use a steam boiler until then. You can get a full sized steam boiler within your first day of playing. Very cheap startup cost, very good to get early game.

According to factorization's author, 300% yield isn't an if or a maybe. Just time consuming (crystalizer). But you have 41 hours... pretty sure you can mine/quarry/uu-matter 33 ore...

Ore > grinder > mixer > slag > crystalizer.
"The metal has been dissolved in acid, heated, and then cooled slowly, allowing the formation of a metallic crystal. No impurities remain. Just smelt it to get an ingot. Smelt: 300%"



41 hours = 2,952,000 ticks
^ * 200eu/t = 590,400,000eu for 1 turbine.
5uu = 2 iron
250uu = 100 iron
250uu required per turbine.
1uu = 16,666,666 via gregtech.
250*16.6=4,166,666,500

If we used macerators to double our output...
5uu = 2iron
mace 2 iron = 4 iron ignots
125uu = 4 ignots
125uu required per turbine
125*16.6million=2,083,333,250

It's a lot worse than you predicted with added 66 steel

 

[Daemonblue]

Regarding the 300%, the way he handles the increase in output forces it to be a maybe, since most parts of the process give you 150% of the input. Because minecraft doesn't give you 50% of an item, for each item handled you will either get double the input or exactly the input. So for each process the deals with 150%, you're actually dealing with an output that's between 100% and 200% that tries to drift towards 150%. Since this is done several times while processing the ore you cannot get exactly 300% of your initial input without a lot of luck, and your actual output will be somewhere around 300%, but not exactly.

Regarding your maceration formula, you missed a few numbers. It would be 5uu for 2 ore, 2 ore = 4 ingots, with a need for 99 ingots. Sure, that comes out to 99/4 times you need to use the recipe, but each recipe requires 5 UUM, so it would be 99/4 * 5 UUM, or 123.75 UUM. 123.75*16.6mil is 2,054,250,000 EU. In other words, just over 2 billion. Also, a single turbine gives only 50 eu/t, not 200 eu/t, from the wiki:
The Steam Turbine requires a constant input of 160 Steam per tick, which is basically four Gold Pipes worth of Steam.
It can output up to 50 EU/t (IndustrialCraft 2) or 50 Kilowatts (Universal Electricity).

This makes the single turbine produce 147,600,000 EU over 41 hours, as I listed above. Also, we're both a bit wrong with the calculations because also according to the wiki the turbine recipe creates them two at a time. This makes the above 2 billion EU needed per turbine turn into a "mere" 1 billion per turbine, with the need to make them 2 at a time.

 

[heavy1metal]

I had corrected my numbers by the time you posted with 250uu/125uu respectively.[DOUBLEPOST=1355534081][/DOUBLEPOST]200eu = 4 turbines, since you're getting 720 steam.

Though I guess I need to increase the iron requirements x4 if we're talking about 4 turbines right?[DOUBLEPOST=1355534227][/DOUBLEPOST]Turbine recipe creates 2 "blocks" not 2 rotors unfortunately. I didn't include the cost of building the turbine :-(

 

[heavy1metal]

lol I like talking numbers, even if I'm mistaken here and there :-D

 

[Daemonblue]

Exactly, and with two turbines per recipe it still comes out to just over 4 billion eu worth of iron that has been macerated and converted to steel for 590,400,000 eu when using Gregtech. As for the heat up cost for a HP boiler, it takes somewhere between 200-300k mb of fuel to get it heated up to around 500C, as a rough estimate, so the heating costs are relatively minor in the long term. The reason I'm using the lower 16,000 fuel value for biofuel is I'm fairly certain the modpack isn't using the addon that doubles the value. With a fuel value of 16,000, each bucket worth would last 101 seconds in the boiler which seems about right for this one I'm testing. What I can do is find an online stopwatch and time it though to be 100% sure, and I'll add my findings to the bottom of this post.

Just tested it, and came out at 92 seconds. However, it should be noted that I started the stopwatch a few seconds late, and this should confirm that boilers are using the 16,000 value for biofuel.

 

[heavy1metal]

I won't argue the 16,000, I was simply getting hopes up for 32,000.

Construction cost (1 complete turbine, just 1):
248 iron to make the turbine (10 billion eu)
99 iron to make the rotor (4 billion eu)
Total: 347 iron to make the first complete turbine.
EU cost: 14 billion eu

Maintenance cost (4x turbines): 16 billion eu every 41 hours.



Math:
You get two turbines used to construct the device, but not rotors. For 99 steel you get 1 rotor. You'd need to replace 4 rotors every 41 hours which is 396 iron. 396 iron would cost 990uu. 990uu is 16.5 billion eu. That's only for the rotors.

Startup costs (2x3x2):
Blocks of iron: 24 (4*6)
Block of iron: 9 ignots
Total iron: 216 (24*9=216)

Steel plates required: 24 (4*6)
Steel paltes 3x: 4 iron ignots
Total Iron: 32 (24/3=8, 8*4=32)

Edit* Below was written out thinking aloud, wrong and irrelevant.
Total iron to make 4 turbines not including rotors: 248
248 iron requires 620uu
620uu is 10 billlion eu (10,333,332,920)