So I've been playing Factorio....

[Drbretto]

Has anyone seen any mods or know of any in the works that uses your excess mats for Science! like Factorio does? And if no, why the hell not??

For those unaware (though, I would imagine this is so far up everyone's alley here you probably already know), in Factorio, all that extra iron and copper (and other mats) you mine gets run through some autocrafters and converted into bottles of "science", which are then gobbled up by "labs" that use the science to research new technologies, unlocking new tiers of stuff to play with. It's the main resource sink in the game, and it works quite well, IMO.

Why is this not the cornerstone of every modpack? What else you gonna do with all that iron?

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Other than certain hardcore packs that just have 'grind x resource' as a limiter to progression before you are permitted access to certain mods, no I don't believe this is a thing.

Unfortunately, it would be a very difficult to implement thing. Every single research would basically be its own quest, using something like HQM, and tiered restrictions like Modern Skyblock 3, flat out preventing you from working with certain items or components until you unlock the research.

It could be made to work, I suppose, but it would be excessively complicated and require a very convoluted quest 'tech' tree. Unless someone wants to develop a new type of research mod. Maybe that mod that Continuum uses to create timesinks can be used to do the research thing? I dunno yet. It might be possible, but seems annoying. And really, the biggest thing about the science in Factorio is that the amount of resources you need keep climbing as you keep progressing, so it is always a relevant portion of your production. In effect, a production tax to progress. And it does this with tiered recipes with each next tier requiring the previous tier of a component.

Thinking further on it... I'm actually seeing how it might be done. It'll be more in the style of Bobs/Angel's resource progression, where you have amalgamated ores that need to be separated out, which is already taken care of in-house with Thermal's chance of producing, for example, nickel ore out of iron ore. So at the beginning, you would start off with copper and iron ore veins exposed, which you then have to put machines on to harvest. These will have to be 'low tech' machines, using cobble and wood as the primary components, maybe flint as well, and be run by burning things. Which isn't out of the question. You'd need fairly large veins of ores, and the mechanic would probably be something like a 5% chance of destroying the ore the furthest down in the vein in it's 2x2 area for every ore it produces to reflect just how long you can run a miner on a given patch of ore and how much ore it gives you. Make sure to replace the ore with something like cobble so you don't get a ton of honey traps.

Thermal Expansion doesn't really work very well for this, so let's use Immersive Engineering as our basis. You'll need to start off by building your infrastructure. You're going to need to change some of the recipes if you don't want the Nether to be appearing, or to give some way of getting blaze powder for the blast furnace, because to get the secondary ores, you'll need a Grinder, which is a pretty sizable and expensive multiblock. The way IE handles power also dovetails very nicely with Factorio's, and you can use IE's belts in a similar manner as well. Use a block... maybe something similar to the old RP2's Translocators or Filters to act as the Inserters.

For the science labs, you'll need to make a custom mod. Very similar in nature to a questing mod, this will unlock access to various things as you progress, and will require the insertion of a given number of 'science packs' of the correct type, adding in new recipes for these science packs, and the science labs themselves act much like the old quest block from AgSkies 2, in that they accept and record how many of the items they have received, and when you hit the research you have indicated, you get the quest complete, and you unlock the new research, and have to select a new research.

It should be possible, but it would also probably be extremely non-trivial to do.

 

[Drbretto]

I have been pondering on it since making this post. I feel like there must be something of a shortcut where this could be possible. Or something like it. But I agree, it would require building a mod specifically for it.

But, couldn't there just be a mod that makes the items you need for gated recipes and just make it require crazy amounts of the resources? Like, just as an easy example, but make your AE/RS controller require some kind of special metal that you make with a machine that requires you to process 5000 iron ingots or something? Or am I missing some key element right now? It wouldn't even have to be much more than an HQM. It could work WITH HQM and just gated by huge sinks?

It's hard not to make something like that grindy, but if you gate it based on the kinds of volume that promote automation, I think it's ok.



Side question, you sound like you are quite familiar with Factorio. Should I just dive into mods or no? I'm still a bit of a noob (I haven't even made plastic yet, I keep starting over and re-doing what I did better, lol), but am I just wasting my time playing vanilla in the long run?

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have been pondering on it since making this post. I feel like there must be something of a shortcut where this could be possible. Or something like it. But I agree, it would require building a mod specifically for it.

But, couldn't there just be a mod that makes the items you need for gated recipes and just make it require crazy amounts of the resources? Like, just as an easy example, but make your AE/RS controller require some kind of special metal that you make with a machine that requires you to process 5000 iron ingots or something? Or am I missing some key element right now? It wouldn't even have to be much more than an HQM. It could work WITH HQM and just gated by huge sinks?

Well, the extend of the new mod would be the recipes for the science packs, and the science labs themselves. Everything else can be done with what we already have available.

Side question, you sound like you are quite familiar with Factorio. Should I just dive into mods or no? I'm still a bit of a noob (I haven't even made plastic yet, I keep starting over and re-doing what I did better, lol), but am I just wasting my time playing vanilla in the long run?

My two cents:

Play it vanilla, or at least vanilla-plus, at least once before diving into mods that make significant changes. Specifically, don't get into Bob's Mods or Angel's Mods until after you've got at least one complete run under your belt. Bobs/Angels are kind of the Expert Mode of Factorio. It assumes you've already done the math, internalized the spreadsheets, and know your stuff. They are fun, don't get me wrong, but also overwhelming, especially for a newer player.

My advise to you is: Play. Just... play. Enjoy yourself. You only get that sense of wonder the first time through. Savor and enjoy it. Yes, you'll make mistakes. And you'll learn from your mistakes. You'll learn to make things modular because you *will* need to expand upon them later. You'll eventually understand the difference between 'temporary setup explicitly intended to be destroyed later' and 'modular setup already spaced out to be able to be upgraded'. And you'll understand how those upgrades and modularity will fit into place. Eventually, you'll know how many machines can fully saturate a belt of a given color, and when you should start transitioning to a higher tier belt, and where you should begin the transition. Eventually, you'll understand the pros and cons of a 'main bus' system, and decide for yourself if it is truly something you want to do or not.

But for now? Enjoy and explore. You've got a broad tech tree to play around in. You've got biters to fend off while figuring out which tech to go for next. You've got infrastructure and automation to learn how to set up efficiently and properly. Go. Do. Be. This isn't a Bethesda game, you don't need mods to fix the game and make it work, so go ahead and play around with the game until you get bored with it. THEN you can start modding it up.

The youtuber KatherineOfSky had an Entry Level To Megabase series which was an extended tutorial series, in which she explains what she is doing and why. She's got a few mods she uses in that series, that I would suggest for a 'vanilla plus' experience. Think of it as being similar to running Minecraft with just JEI, Dynamic Surroundings, InventoryTweaks, and a few other quality of life but largely not game-changing mods.

 

[Drbretto]

I am going to start watching those streams now while I'm avoiding responsibilities at work Thanks for the recommendation! I will wait on the mods, too. Actually, your response was the one I was hoping for.

Don't get me wrong, it's fun to spend the whole day at work trying to figure out the best ratios of machines to use when making my own research system blueprints, but in the end, I really don't necessarily want to have to play with a calculator at the ready all the time. I find it encouraging that by just playing long enough, I'll get an intuitive grasp of these ratios naturally.

I do think I'm interested in the quality of lie mods, though. Depending on how much they can add to the experience.

And man, I am trying to just play and explore, but damn if I don't just keep drastically underestimating the scope of this game, lol.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[Drbretto]

OK, at this point this is an off-topic thread, so I apologize mods, but I wanted to thank you, Shnkeeky for that Katherine of Sky recommendation. I've been watching this for hours and I've learn a TON of stuff. And the right kind of stuff. Not so much specifics as theory. Great presentation on her end. Very informative.

It's perfect, because my issue isn't in specific designs. I intend to make all my own blueprints (doesn't mean I can't borrow ideas, btw, that just means I need to be able to construct it myself based on how and why it works). But the problem I was running into was that I had no idea of the scope of these worlds, or really what to do with the resources I had.

I thought I was taking up too much screen space just building my red and green science factories! How hilariously quaint of me, for real! I kept restarting to nail that part and it turns out that is something that you throw together in the beginning and bulldoze later. The full scope of this game is just starting to hit me. This is ganna be a fun weekend.

Anyway, specific question, what's the difference between these nanobots and the vanilla robots? I was on the precipice of making the vanilla bots on one playthrough as you still only need red and green at that point. I just never got around to processing the plastic. I was under the impression that those bots would build based on the blueprints, but it looks like that's what the nanobots do, too? Or did I just misunderstand what the construction bots are? I know the vanilla bots do more stuff, but I'm trying to figure out if the vanilla bots do that building as well. If not, then I'm going to have to add those nanobots in immediately.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

OK, at this point this is an off-topic thread, so I apologize mods, but I wanted to thank you, Shnkeeky for that Katherine of Sky recommendation. I've been watching this for hours and I've learn a TON of stuff. And the right kind of stuff. Not so much specifics as theory. Great presentation on her end. Very informative.

It's perfect, because my issue isn't in specific designs. I intend to make all my own blueprints (doesn't mean I can't borrow ideas, btw, that just means I need to be able to construct it myself based on how and why it works). But the problem I was running into was that I had no idea of the scope of these worlds, or really what to do with the resources I had.

I thought I was taking up too much screen space just building my red and green science factories! How hilariously quaint of me, for real! I kept restarting to nail that part and it turns out that is something that you throw together in the beginning and bulldoze later. The full scope of this game is just starting to hit me. This is ganna be a fun weekend.

I'm glad you got a lot out of her videos. But yea, the sheer scope and scale of Factorio is much more expansive than, say, Minecraft typically is.

Anyway, specific question, what's the difference between these nanobots and the vanilla robots? I was on the precipice of making the vanilla bots on one playthrough as you still only need red and green at that point. I just never got around to processing the plastic. I was under the impression that those bots would build based on the blueprints, but it looks like that's what the nanobots do, too? Or did I just misunderstand what the construction bots are? I know the vanilla bots do more stuff, but I'm trying to figure out if the vanilla bots do that building as well. If not, then I'm going to have to add those nanobots in immediately.

Nanobots, as in the mod-added item she used to quickly create her 'mall', are single-use items with a relatively short duration, can only be used to build with, and have innate speed and stack upgrades since vanilla bot upgrades don't work with them.

Vanilla robots are a whole 'nother level of interesting, but also require investment. Yes, technically, you can build basic robots without blue, but they are going to be painfully slow, and you won't be able to get a lot of usage out of them until after you have Blue research fully automated. In particular, you need logistic networks before they become truly useful, which is a blue research, and you're going to want at least one or two speed and stack upgrades as well, which are also blue research.

Vanilla robots are a pretty big deal, however they have a very low throughput because of the time it takes to get around. For shorter tasks, it's better to use blue or even red belts, for longer tasks they take forever to get around. But they still are able to run a logistic chain from Point A to Point B without having to run belting between them, so long as you can fit in a logistic chest into the design. At this point, I don't think I need to explain how huge that can be. However, they can do more than that, they can automatically repair/replace, making them key in dynamic and worry-free biter defenses. By providing them with repair kits, they can repair walls and turrets that were damage in a biter attack, and provided with walls and turrets, can replace ones that were completely destroyed, so long as you have your blueprint in place.

The tradeoff is that vanilla robots are pretty pricey, require electric engines (which means getting a lubrication plant up and running and automation of engines, since you can't manually craft them), and they will also need batteries, which means getting your entire petrochemical industry up and running. So there's definitely some tech-walls before vanilla robots become even possible, and even more tech-wall before they become truly useful. But once you hit that point, they become SO good. Also, you probably want some form of modular armor with a personal roboport to make building much easier, and that is also going to be blue research at a minimum.

 

[Drbretto]

Goooootcha. Ok, so in fewer words, essentially the nanobots are earlier, easier tech, and just build (or eat wood) and none of the other complicated stuff, and this is balanced out by them being consumable. Ok, this makes sense. The vanilla bots definitely sound way more complicated (and potentially interesting) than I originally expected. I did kind of think that the logistics network came with the bot home base thingy, so I'm glad I didn't jump into all that too soon. It would have been overwhelming.

I think it would be wise to go ahead with that one, then. I don't think that will spoil anything and it will take the pressure off of me trying to make those bots too early. That would also open things up to other QoL mods, so I guess it's time to start looking into those.

Thanks again, bud!

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Goooootcha. Ok, so in fewer words, essentially the nanobots are earlier, easier tech, and just build (or eat wood) and none of the other complicated stuff, and this is balanced out by them being consumable. Ok, this makes sense. The vanilla bots definitely sound way more complicated (and potentially interesting) than I originally expected. I did kind of think that the logistics network came with the bot home base thingy, so I'm glad I didn't jump into all that too soon. It would have been overwhelming.

I think it would be wise to go ahead with that one, then. I don't think that will spoil anything and it will take the pressure off of me trying to make those bots too early. That would also open things up to other QoL mods, so I guess it's time to start looking into those.

Thanks again, bud!

Yea, the logistic networks you can setup can get VERY complicated and overwhelming for the first-time user, and lots of people never really utilize them to their fullest extent, or even realize just what you can DO with them. You'll also want a grid of roboports to cover your base. By the way, the two colors of areas are for two different things: Blue is for logistic network, the larger green area is for construction/destruction only. The areas need to touch blue for the logistic network to be interconnected, which is something else not entirely intuitive.

However, it's also a thing that Katherine explains when she gets to that point in her Megabase, and she probably does a better job of explaining it than I have.

Going back to on topic about making a Factorio-esque mod pack in Minecraft, we're rather spoiled with the throughput of most piping systems, and it is VASTLY better than any train system, at any range, whereas over long distances, trains can exceed the throughput of even belts, and train tracks can't be attacked by biters, which makes railroads the outpost-connecting methodology of choice, while in Minecraft, that's just not feasible, from an optimization perspective. I mean, you can do trains if you want, but they would be strictly inferor to any pipe system, much less any teleport system.

 

[Drbretto]

Yeah, I'm only up to Katherine's Mall at this point. I want to get in there and get up to that point in my own design first before I go too much further and overwhelm myself.

As for Minecraft, that is true about the throughput and trains and whatnot. Other stuff as well. A real close Minecraft:Factorio experience wouldn't be a simple do at all. I was mostly just referring to something to do with all that excess junk in Minecraft. I really enjoyed the ramp up in production in Minecraft (and modded minecraft is my introduction to this whole type of gaming experience, btw) but once you start producing crazy amounts of resources, there's just not that much to do with it. On one map, I started making an Iron Block statue of a million Iron Blocks. I just loved how in Factorio, not only was there a ton to do with the resources I was generating, it looks like there's almost no such thing as generating TOO much here. And not just to fill a huge silo of mats, but you actually consume them for interesting purposes.

I just liked the method they used, basically.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, I'm only up to Katherine's Mall at this point. I want to get in there and get up to that point in my own design first before I go too much further and overwhelm myself.

As for Minecraft, that is true about the throughput and trains and whatnot. Other stuff as well. A real close Minecraft:Factorio experience wouldn't be a simple do at all. I was mostly just referring to something to do with all that excess junk in Minecraft. I really enjoyed the ramp up in production in Minecraft (and modded minecraft is my introduction to this whole type of gaming experience, btw) but once you start producing crazy amounts of resources, there's just not that much to do with it. On one map, I started making an Iron Block statue of a million Iron Blocks. I just loved how in Factorio, not only was there a ton to do with the resources I was generating, it looks like there's almost no such thing as generating TOO much here. And not just to fill a huge silo of mats, but you actually consume them for interesting purposes.

I just liked the method they used, basically.

I agree, I like the fact that, despite the fact that you're probably mining 10k+ ore per *second*, you're also finding a way to USE all that iron up just as fast. And I agree a minecraft pack with that logic would garner a lot of interest. And I also agree that it would be a LOT of work to do.

 

[Golrith]

Hmm, initial thoughts on a Factorio style minecraft pack:

Recipes for advanced items would have to be multi-stage nested using previous recipes. That'll ramp your resource usage.
Streamline the resources actually used. Modded Minecraft is littered with many different types of resources, but they are used rarely (Lead is a good example here). "Less is more".
Simplify the recipes, in factorio it's usually just 1-3 resources to make a component. "K.I.S.S."
Do not have Applied Energistics (or similar) in the pack. Players will have to use some form of auto-crafter and insert the correct items into it via "pipes" (aka 1.2.5 days)
Efab might be useful as a AE replacement for crafting without excessive pipes and give more flexibility on recipes.
Mekanism 5x ore processing system might actually be useful for the higher resource usage. You could even expand on ore processing by having ores to nuggets, and additional ways to process extra nuggets, then to ores. That would result in Mekanism being 45x ore processing!


Edit:
For research system, use questbook as a resource book. You unlock new tech by building the science packs, and spending them in the questbook. Bit like SevTech Ages that triggers new technology at certain points. Performance wise it shouldn't be too bad as it's only going to be a few blocks at a time, although I have no idea how that is achieved.

 

[Golrith]

So I've now got the Factorio in Minecraft itch and have been looking into it a bit. (damn you guys) - below is a bit rambling as I'm thinking of things.

Main resources are Iron, Copper and Coal. Steel is 5 iron to 1 Steel (hence the heavy resource resource requirements).

Stone Furnace = Vanilla Furnace
Steel Furnace = Blast Furnace (can be configured to process other ores at a slightly faster speed than the Vanilla Furnace)
Electric Furnace = Any modded Furnace

Many MC recipes can be kept the same, as it's only a "few" components that would need to be adjusted. Other resources can be kept in (at low/normal spawn rates) just to keep things interesting.
We can also make things more factory like, since in Factorio you smelt Ores straight to Plates, but various mod plate making machines can be inserted into the process. The key thing is that manual 2x2 or 3x3 crafting options are removed, as there are no time element to the craft, which is the key reason in factorio as to why you upgrade to better and faster tech. This is the part that is key to getting the right balance.

I think manual crafts need to be done in mods that require you to interact manually with a block (like hammering a plate) and/or an efab recipe with a long duration on it (not 30 minutes!)
First tier tech is all the Immersive Engineering options
Automated Mining would need to be Buildcraft quarry, the marker upgrades would be locked later research, mid/endgame mining would be the bucket excavator when the world has been ripped up from the quarries.

Efab could be the research lab, separates it from normal crafters and gives a lot more flexability.

All alloys could be done on the 5 to 1 ratio to match steel. That increases the long term resource requirements.

Since science packs are key, AE2 could be kept, it's just unlocked with the late game science packs.

The military side of things is covered with IE guns and Open Modular turrets (I know IE has turrets, but OPM has a lot more going on). Zombie Awareness to add the needed challenge to defense, plus some way that mobs can break through walls, making defense turrets vital.


If I'm honest, I don't see a pack like this needing many mods, because the research system is adding the challenge to the pack.

 

[KingTriaxx]

SkySomm wrote a mod specifically to create stages in hardcore mod packs. Might be the thing you need for research based unlocks.

I'd use EFab to replace the research labs, with the time component being it consuming the research packs and generating research points you can spend. So instead of spend 20 Red science packs at 20 seconds per pack to unlock conveyors, you have EFab consume them and produce red research tokens. Then when you have 20 of them you can buy the research costing twenty. This way you can get the same benefit as multiple labs by just using a bunch of EFab machines all making red research points.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some ideas:

* Use Immersive Engineering as your base Tech mod, with Immersive Petroleum for your petrochemical industry. Furnaces are furnaces, with the option to use the heating element for once to run them off of power instead of burnables. Arc furnaces are the high-tier (remember, Electric Furnaces are bigger than regular ones)
* Efab can be used as the automation factories.
* Use Immersive Engineering belts? Maybe upgrade to TD ducts?
* Research system can be done with HQM, requiring tons of the research packs for each 'quest' that unlocks a given research item.

 

[KingTriaxx]

Using Efab for research is the better option, with it's ability to add a time component to a recipe. Research is the only thing that costs time specifically in it's use. Plus it allows for more advanced recipes to use up to nine researches in it's recipe. But then HQM is the actual research tree.
IE belts, to TE Ducts to Impulse Ducts.
Pneumaticraft Repressurized gets you drones and logistic drones.

 

[Golrith]

Well, looks like I better fire up MC and start designing this pack

Efab as a research lab and early game crafter seems to be vital, purely for the time element.

Main hurdle is learning how to make the research system. From seeing SevTech and some other packs, the technology is there.

 

[Golrith]

So, lets craft a furnace, err, wait, no vanilla furnaces?


Open my research book, a diamond for a furnace....


Tada - I can now build a furnace



This is just proof of concept that the tech tree is possible, but damn making a quest in better questing is a slow ass process.

 

[Golrith]

Small problem with using Immersive Engineering. There's no "unique" blocks to restrict behind research. Most multiblocks are made from generic blocks.

Edit: Small experiment with ore generation, the three key resources (copper, iron & coal) will be obvious with ores breaking to the surface.

Found a sweet little mod that adds a fuel powered and RF powered single chunk quarry. These will be the main resource gatherers for this pack.

Note to self: Will need a way to make use of excessive trash blocks (beyond voiding).