Male/female pronouns

[DeathOfTime]

I think these are confusing times for lots of people. I've been called ma'am by store clerks. Even though I have a beard. I don't know if it is my impressive rack that weight and genetics has given me, my soft spoken voice, or what. People can't seem to get which gender specific to use. I can understand over the phone stuff. This is a small backwards town though. So it happening here I consider kinda strange. Either way, I don't care as long as i'm not being treated like crap in general. People are pretty nice around here so I think I can put up with a little confusion on their part.

Yeah I assume most people I talk to are white as well, because I fall into that group. I don't particularly care if I get mistaken for female or a separate ethnicity because most people will assume that others have similar traits to them and arguing that is in any way discriminatory or harmful shows more of an insecurity on the part of those who complain about it.

When talking over the phone I usually make assumptions based on accent or styles of speaking. I don't have anything to look at, and I like putting a person to the voice. I guess by big issue with gender based terms is that people can pick and choose which one they are called. I always thought of gender as the set of equipment you were born with. Not a whole conglomeration of different possibilities. The whole freaking thing just confuses me. I do think though that much of the gender based language should be done away with though. Will make book reading lame as hell though. Imagine reading a book where neutral terms were used throughout for every thing. Where adjectives were assigned based on preference instead of actual applicability. I do think though that people have enough to deal with without having unwanted adjectives applied to them.

(Really hoping adjective is the word I think it is. The wictionary was no help. Supposed to be that the word for words that describe things. Was hard enough writing down my thoughts without that word sounding all wrong in usage. Dang thoughts kept speeding through my head. I would be thinking on a new one. Forgetting the last ones. Before I even had any of them written down.)

Almost forgot. Over the net I make assumptions based on avatar. So it is a cute cat girl in my mind writing the post. I have some doubt about the truth of that being what you look like in real life. Still it lets me assign a person to the post. Makes it much easier to remember whos who on forums too. Gives me a name and a physical appearance linked. Not just one or the other to remember.

The only thing I agree with in the 'default to male' is that sometimes on the internet, people want to be called male because.. well... let's just say you should never tell anyone that you're female on the internet. But, you shouldn't assume somebody is male when you are in a place where it isn't full of pervs. To be fair, mewtwo has made a few good points, but 'we've done it for thousands of years' is an absolutely terrible argument. There have been slaves for thousands of years! Women haven't had the vote for thousands of years! Don't give me that crap about it of been like that for thousands of years.

Actually until told otherwise I tend to think of most the users of the internet as not being humans. If they have a avatar they look something like it. If they don't they are just a set of language symbols. I do know that there is something on the other end of that username with feeling, thoughts, and aspirations though. So I do my best not to tred on toes.

 

[Baaleos]

The ironic thing is that in the womb we are anatomically female by default until the 7th week of pregnancy.
So logically speaking - it would be more correct to assume female until proven male.
But as its been said - we just don't think that way in this day and age.
Be it due to it being a mans world, men just dominating women or just psycological/educational conditioning through childhood- people just don't think in gender neutral terms.

I also agree with what is said above about online avatars - especially in games, which coincides with what I said about having information.
If I am playing with a player whos character is female, I have no other information to go on, besides their characters gender - therefore I call that player a she (as it is how everyone else would identify her)
Until I am told otherwise, I continue to assume female.

I would however concede - that if I am visually seeing a female, but then get told verbally that the person is a male, I might occasionally through slip of tongue, call that player a 'she'.
Its just because my eyes see one thing, despite my mind knowing another thing.
Its happened in the past, and I have had to correct myself - but what can they expect - they are playing as a female character and in the heat of mmo battle, I cannot be blamed for calling the player using the pronoun they are attempting to imitate.

 

[dragon_fang101]

The ironic thing is that in the womb we are anatomically female by default until the 7th week of pregnancy.
So logically speaking - it would be more correct to assume female until proven male.
But as its been said - we just don't think that way in this day and age.
Be it due to it being a mans world, men just dominating women or just psycological/educational conditioning through childhood- people just don't think in gender neutral terms.

I also agree with what is said above about online avatars - especially in games, which coincides with what I said about having information.
If I am playing with a player whos character is female, I have no other information to go on, besides their characters gender - therefore I call that player a she (as it is how everyone else would identify her)
Until I am told otherwise, I continue to assume female.

I would however concede - that if I am visually seeing a female, but then get told verbally that the person is a male, I might occasionally through slip of tongue, call that player a 'she'.
Its just because my eyes see one thing, despite my mind knowing another thing.
Its happened in the past, and I have had to correct myself - but what can they expect - they are playing as a female character and in the heat of mmo battle, I cannot be blamed for calling the player using the pronoun they are attempting to imitate.

Ewww Eww disgusting why do I have to read this D:
Everything you guys have said thus far is just pushing me the other way.

 

[Strikingwolf]

/me sits over here and calls everyone by name unless told or indicated otherwise

 

[LivingAngryCheese]

/me sits over here and calls everyone by name unless told or indicated otherwise

It's there not here, you're talking in third person.
Jeez let's start a thread about here and there prepositions. /joke

 

[Strikingwolf]

It's there not here, you're talking in third person.
Jeez let's start a thread about here and there prepositions. /joke

:3

I call Freudian slip

 

[FyberOptic]

Sure it would be nice if everyone remembered to be grammatically correct and use gender neutral terms and pronouns.
Lets imagine a 911 call.
'Help me, he is going to kill me'
or
'Help me, the person whos gender I dont know, is going to kill me'

I love this example because it perfectly exemplifies many different elements about this entire conversation, and answers many of the questions about the pronouns without people even having to think about it.

There are times when gender and race identification are superfluous information. It's a social issue, and is generally irrelevant in cases of public safety as in the example, where if the suspect were to escape then the police would identify them in very plain and accurate terms. Suddenly it doesn't matter if you think you're black, the public is looking for a white person. It doesn't matter if you identify as female, if you look male then that's what goes on your bolo. If you look male and have on a dress and wig then that's going there too, because it's identifying information.

The same goes if you get in an accident or are suffering a health issue and end up at the hospital. Your actual gender and race is important because there are biological differences which can affect treatment. It might make people feel good to say "we're all the same, we're just different on the outside" but that's simply a fallacy.

So when people get upset about misuse of pronouns, what is the logical conclusion of that? Are you going to sue the DMV for stamping the wrong gender on your drivers license? Are you going to sue law enforcement agencies for identifying you incorrectly in the event of a crime? Are you going to sue the hospital for misidentifying you on your charts? No reasonable person would.

And I think that's what this all boils down to. Reasonable people. Reasonable people don't flip out over this stuff. If they do, they're probably not worth your time to begin with.

 

[dragon_fang101]

well I wouldn't sue them, but that info might be important later. what if you got pulled over and had to show it? wrong gender on your driving license can show a lot.

 

[LivingAngryCheese]

I love this example because it perfectly exemplifies many different elements about this entire conversation, and answers many of the questions about the pronouns without people even having to think about it.

There are times when gender and race identification are superfluous information. It's a social issue, and is generally irrelevant in cases of public safety as in the example, where if the suspect were to escape then the police would identify them in very plain and accurate terms. Suddenly it doesn't matter if you think you're black, the public is looking for a white person. It doesn't matter if you identify as female, if you look male then that's what goes on your bolo. If you look male and have on a dress and wig then that's going there too, because it's identifying information.

The same goes if you get in an accident or are suffering a health issue and end up at the hospital. Your actual gender and race is important because there are biological differences which can affect treatment. It might make people feel good to say "we're all the same, we're just different on the outside" but that's simply a fallacy.

So when people get upset about misuse of pronouns, what is the logical conclusion of that? Are you going to sue the DMV for stamping the wrong gender on your drivers license? Are you going to sue law enforcement agencies for identifying you incorrectly in the event of a crime? Are you going to sue the hospital for misidentifying you on your charts? No reasonable person would.

And I think that's what this all boils down to. Reasonable people. Reasonable people don't flip out over this stuff. If they do, they're probably not worth your time to begin with.

So the fact that females are alienated by our very language is fine? And that it's OK to call a transgender person by their old gender because of assumptions? I hate this post because it SOUNDS like it's right. And honestly, I don't know why I'm arguing. You may think they're not worth your time, but I have better things to be doing than arguing with people like you.

 

[FyberOptic]

So the fact that females are alienated by our very language is fine? And that it's OK to call a transgender person by their old gender because of assumptions?

You're making a lot of assumptions, ironically. I never said or implied either.

That being said, our brain is designed to make assumptions. Human beings wouldn't exist without that capability, because it also ensures our survival. We can't turn that off, nor should we. I would never fault anyone for assuming a gender about someone and then being wrong about it, especially since more often than not the assumption will be accurate. Lack of solid evidence leads to our brain making assumptions, and to be angry about that is to be angry about human nature, which gets you nowhere fast.

I hate this post because it SOUNDS like it's right.

It sounds right because it is right. People don't want to hear it, but social issues like gender and race identification just aren't relevant in all situations. When people can accept that, and accept that it's human nature to make assumptions, they'll live a lot happier life than being angry and bitter and thinking they're a victim of an unjust society.

 

[LivingAngryCheese]

You're making a lot of assumptions, ironically. I never said or implied either.

That being said, our brain is designed to make assumptions. Human beings wouldn't exist without that capability, because it also ensures our survival. We can't turn that off, nor should we. I would never fault anyone for assuming a gender about someone and then being wrong about it, especially since more often than not the assumption will be accurate. Lack of solid evidence leads to our brain making assumptions, and to be angry about that is to be angry about human nature, which gets you nowhere fast.



It sounds right because it is right. People don't want to hear it, but social issues like gender and race identification just aren't relevant in all situations. When people can accept that, and accept that it's human nature to make assumptions, they'll live a lot happier life than being angry and bitter and thinking they're a victim of an unjust society.

Yes, it's not always relevant, but in general life it is. Answer me this:

Why is language geared towards men?

 

[dragon_fang101]

because someone said it should be that way. that's generally how the world works.

 

[FyberOptic]

Why is language geared towards men?

Language is full of pronouns, you can use it however you see fit.

 

[dragon_fang101]

Also, don't forget that english comes from latin and greek roots, and they were geared torwards men.

 

[DeathOfTime]

Yes, it's not always relevant, but in general life it is. Answer me this:

Why is language geared towards men?

How is it geared towards men? How is it beneficial to men to have everything in the generic attributed to men. How is it not showing favoritism to females to give them a unique category and just not lump them in with everyone else. Men tends to be the generic term. Doesn't mean you are a man. Just means you don't fall under any other category either.

I don't know. I may be seeing it wrong. I do know that people will see prejudice where they want to. Especially if it is of benefit to them, or to someone that has brainwashed them into thinking it is the correct way to view things.

 

[keybounce]

That being said, our brain is designed to make assumptions. Human beings wouldn't exist without that capability, because it also ensures our survival. We can't turn that off, nor should we

This is true. But this is not the end of the discussion.

I strongly suggest you read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. It's written by someone whose pen name is "Less Wrong" -- because he is focusing on addressing the errors and problems known to exist in the brain, faults in the brain hardware and core operating system, faults that were essential for survival when we did not control our world, faults that hurt us now.

During this story -- it's an alternate universe Harry Potter story -- Harry has to go through all sorts of common errors that people make in reasoning, all the time trying to be less and less wrong in his thinking. Growing up at age 11, because by the time the story is over, it becomes a life-and-death matter.

The fundamental difference: What if Petunia, instead of marrying Dursley, decided that he was a horrible person, and instead, fell in love with a scientist? When James and Lilly died, Harry went to a relative where he learned scientific thinking, and was loved.

By the time it's over? Magic plus science equal extinction-level threat.

The point is, our brain is hardwired to make choices that are all about "Survive this next immediate threat to our life so we can get back to making babies". As soon as you want to go beyond that, you need to be aware of your brain's faults, and work around them.

Life is not just about making babies and protecting them while they grow up. Yet that is all our brains really know how to do. Everything else is stuff added-on by the end user without any warranty from the manufacturer, and like any good hacker, people have learned how to make that brain work a lot better by tweaking things.

 

[LivingAngryCheese]

How is it geared towards men? How is it beneficial to men to have everything in the generic attributed to men. How is it not showing favoritism to females to give them a unique category and just not lump them in with everyone else. Men tends to be the generic term. Doesn't mean you are a man. Just means you don't fall under any other category either.

I don't know. I may be seeing it wrong. I do know that people will see prejudice where they want to. Especially if it is of benefit to them, or to someone that has brainwashed them into thinking it is the correct way to view things.

Yes I am a boy that has been brainwashed into seeing prejudice against females. Don't make me laugh.

 

[RJS]

I think part of the problem comes from an increased amount of interaction solely via the written word. Traditionally, speaking face to face, we have access to tone of voice, facial expression, hand gestures, body language etc. in addition to the words used. Now, in a lot of methods of communication, we solely have access to the words. Because we have no contextual data, our brains extrapolate a context from the words, and so we can put an entirely different context on a written sentence compared to somebody else.

About the historical context - yes, women have historically had the raw end of the deal, and still do. The fact that there is this drive to change that, and change is happening, is positive and a step in the right direction. Does that mean change will happen overnight? Of course not. Hell, we still see people being arrested for what is effectively slave ownership to this day (though they have crawled to a trickle). The push for equality is still going on, and like all changes it is being met with some resistance. But it is a push that is winning. One day, we may even sort out any issues that exist buried within our languages.

For now though, I would argue that women have got bigger problems to fight than against the language they speak. We can make the world a better place, but it will only happen one step at a time. That battle can be fought when we have taken enough steps to reach it.

 

[LivingAngryCheese]

I think part of the problem comes from an increased amount of interaction solely via the written word. Traditionally, speaking face to face, we have access to tone of voice, facial expression, hand gestures, body language etc. in addition to the words used. Now, in a lot of methods of communication, we solely have access to the words. Because we have no contextual data, our brains extrapolate a context from the words, and so we can put an entirely different context on a written sentence compared to somebody else.

About the historical context - yes, women have historically had the raw end of the deal, and still do. The fact that there is this drive to change that, and change is happening, is positive and a step in the right direction. Does that mean change will happen overnight? Of course not. Hell, we still see people being arrested for what is effectively slave ownership to this day (though they have crawled to a trickle). The push for equality is still going on, and like all changes it is being met with some resistance. But it is a push that is winning. One day, we may even sort out any issues that exist buried within our languages.

For now though, I would argue that women have got bigger problems to fight than against the language they speak. We can make the world a better place, but it will only happen one step at a time. That battle can be fought when we have taken enough steps to reach it.

It's something that is a much bigger problem for trans women though.

 

[FyberOptic]

Life is not just about making babies and protecting them while they grow up. Yet that is all our brains really know how to do. Everything else is stuff added-on by the end user without any warranty from the manufacturer, and like any good hacker, people have learned how to make that brain work a lot better by tweaking things.

You can and should proceed into intelligent thought after initial assumptions, but that still doesn't change the fact that we have those initial assumptions to begin with. Not to mention, there are times when further information simply doesn't exist, and you still resort to making assumptions, and sometimes you'll be wrong. Given all of these factors, the other person should be able to accept that assumptions are a part of life and not be offended. Becoming angry over it is the easiest way to make someone unsympathetic to their situation.