You mean to say, new liquids in general are a passing fad. Unless we're going to pretend random lakes of poison and unhelpful spa water are not tiny liquid anthropomorphs riding a motorcycle jumping over a shark.
Liquid metals could be AWESOME!
- Thread starter schyman
- Start date
-
The FTB Forum is now read-only, and is here as an archive. To participate in our community discussions, please join our Discord! https://ftb.team/discord
You mean to say, new liquids in general are a passing fad. Unless we're going to pretend random lakes of poison and unhelpful spa water are not tiny liquid anthropomorphs riding a motorcycle jumping over a shark.
I hope neither liquid metals nor multiblocks are passing fads.
Just like the ore doubling, item piping etc I hope they become established and well-integrated parts of the modpacks. Multiblocks are already to a large degree, though many still have issues with the multifarms, but other than that for some purposes they just work better (tanks, boilers etc).
Yeah, that's true to some extent; with the liquid dictionary it seems to be kind of popular to add a lot of liquids. I think we'll see a large drop in this after a while and more careful consideration about what liquids add to the experience and not. I think liquid metals have potential to add a lot though.
As they stand "multiblocks" are nothing more than "single magical blocks" that happen to bigger. The only difference is that instead of crafting them in a crafting table, you craft them by placing the blocks. You still have to build them exactly to the recipe.
Actually the multifarm is best about trying to get away from that, but the only real success is TE machines.
Liquid metals will be/are the same. You don't use them as liquids. You certainly won't want to store them as such. It's a fad to "ooooh look! liquids!" but the end result is still "put ore in, get ingot out"
To be honest, I'd be happier if ore doubling and piping WEREN'T central to mods. Ore doubling, while neat the first few times you set it up, essentially limits your start in MC to one of a few different routes (pulveriser, macerator, smeltery, slag furnace if you're feeling hipster), which makes the initial few days of a world a grind to do and watch.
And, I like item transport, but there are a number of new and interesting methods that don't involve piping that show that there are other ways of doing things (routers are fantastic, but the devices themselves and the filters are such a pain to make that it makes them prohibitive). If BC HADN'T become one of the first major mods, there would be other ways of doing things.
Multiblocks I like, if only for the comment Soaryn made about them in the DW20 video a while ago, they give more options for connections. When you have the possibility of pumping 3 different types of thing (item, liquid, power) into and out of a single block, it becomes more than a little bit of a pain, and multiblocks help with this.
Liquid metals are a neat idea, and one I will probably play around with on my next world (if you can put a faucet on an endertank, can you put one on an iron tank valve?). If you could make more stuff with it it would be great (wiring extruders, machine casing dies, etc.), but their use at present is for either TC tools, or storage.
Liquid metal is surely interesting, I've been toying around with the idea of engines running off of liquid metal, which varying energy based off of what kind of metal, example: Gold = 5mj/t iron = 2mj/t
But thats just been a idea.
I need to mess around with liquid metals in 1.6.2, iirc mDiyo has fixed a few problems with them.
But thats just been a idea.
I need to mess around with liquid metals in 1.6.2, iirc mDiyo has fixed a few problems with them.
I think you might be partially mixing up something having aesthetics as primary value and something being a passing fad? There's reasons many people still prefer the quarry to the much more efficient and cheaper mining turtle (or for that matter the IC2 miner), and I think one of those reasons is they like the looks of a laser drill more than a cube-bot. Others prefer the turtle, of course; it's a matter of taste. But I think there's a large enough amount of people that like both liquids and multiblocks for those to stay and continue to be popular. Some people even prefer steve's carts miners to all other much more effective methods!
And I mean, ultimately, most things in minecraft are determined by aesthetics; preferring stone bricks and other "advanced" building blocks over cobblestone isn't a passing fad, even though the end result is still "put down blocks, hide from monsters".
Multiblocks have many benefits to "single magic block":
- They can have varying size, thus having a more fluid cost change based on size (tanks are an excellent example of this). Thus recipes can be "fluid" in a way crafting table recipes aren't.
- They can have more different side for input/output (currently not utilized much, but for large complex machines it could be useful; for example having an autocrafter where input slots match the recipes).
- The size footprint is another balancing factor along with material cost, speed and running cost.
- Many people (including me) think they often look better, and they definately have more potential for looking good as they simply can have more parts, especially moving parts.
Of course not all machines fit as multiblocks, and I'm not saying everything should be multiblocks; I'd like a good variety of single block machines, multiblock machines, and entity-based "machines" (such as golems or minecarts). There's also half-way multiblocks which are several blocks connected that are needed to work but that don't become one single block really; things like the MFR laser/prechargers and the assembly table/lasers. Those are also great.
If the boilers were a single block and you just put in "upgrades" to replicate the effects of the size and pressure differences, I'd not like them nearly as much.
- They can have varying size, thus having a more fluid cost change based on size (tanks are an excellent example of this). Thus recipes can be "fluid" in a way crafting table recipes aren't.
- They can have more different side for input/output (currently not utilized much, but for large complex machines it could be useful; for example having an autocrafter where input slots match the recipes).
- The size footprint is another balancing factor along with material cost, speed and running cost.
- Many people (including me) think they often look better, and they definately have more potential for looking good as they simply can have more parts, especially moving parts.
Of course not all machines fit as multiblocks, and I'm not saying everything should be multiblocks; I'd like a good variety of single block machines, multiblock machines, and entity-based "machines" (such as golems or minecarts). There's also half-way multiblocks which are several blocks connected that are needed to work but that don't become one single block really; things like the MFR laser/prechargers and the assembly table/lasers. Those are also great.
If the boilers were a single block and you just put in "upgrades" to replicate the effects of the size and pressure differences, I'd not like them nearly as much.
Of course, liquid metals will mostly be useful when they can be used in blocks, but I don't see why they necessarily have to be turned into ingots. Being able to craft directly from molds, or even make stuff that includes still-liquid stuff (like tesseracts contain liquid ender).
That's of course a valid viewpoint. But honestly, I feel that if you don't want to you don't have to if you don't want to, and that if you just choose not to, it's the same situation as if it weren't central. Most recipes aren't so expensive ore doubling is strictly necessary, except for a few really high-tech stuff. It's not hard to build a phat castle, or get a three full-powered quarries up and running without using ore doubling (especially not with minium stones allowing easy access to iron).
(On a side note, there are a few more methods of ore doubling; grinder, tinker's tool autosmelt, force tools pulverize and might be others)
Well, I didn't mean piping in specific but rather moving around stuff from inventory to inventory, and I think there are _many_ ways to do this, including golems, turtles, conveyor belts, various kinds of pipes/tubes/AE, ender chest systems, vanilla hoppers+water slides etc. I typically use a combination of methods, though I usually end up with AE for most of the stuff at the end of it...[DOUBLEPOST=1377087167][/DOUBLEPOST]For some reason I cannot edit posts... It should be "I feel that if you don't want to you don't have to
Actually, I've found that ore doubling in the first bit of a world (unless you either grind straight to quarry, or go overkill on the ore gathering) is pretty essential. It's how the ore distributions are balanced, and typically affects the initial power and infrastructure that a player sets up.
As to the other methods of doubling, I listed the ones that A) were popular, and B) occurred to me. I didn't think about force tools, and that is another method that I've used recently. The autosmelt, however, needing blaze rods makes it not exactly start-of-game, and the grinder is part of the factorisation tech tree, which basically begins with the slag furnace, and then onto the grinder, and so on and so forth. Let's not get into why I dislike the factorisation route (block of diamonds for T2 stuff is not something that I appreciate).
Oh I didn't mean factorization grinder, I meant the AE thingy... quartz grinder I think? The one you crank by hand. Maybe something completely different.
But I don't really see it with how it's so essential. It completely depends on your goal with the map. If the goal is to get access to all materials automatically (just as an example) it will of course be the optimal way by far, but then it's kind of a natural part of the goal. If the goal is to build a nice house I don't see it as nearly as necessary, neither is it that important if your goal is to start up a huge golem-driven farm.
I mean yeah, it's effective and surely quickens up most stuff to do it, but unless your goal is to max output I don't see how it's that necessary. I usually don't get ore multiplication up at all (apart from maybe a slag furnace) until after maybe 4th to 6th minecraft day...
Sooner or later you'll want it, sure, but it's not the first thing you have to do on every map. I usually spend a day or three travelling around, trying to find a nice place to settle and maybe a village, plundering surface thaumcraft chests etc, and then maybe about a day or two setting up a nice first 9 by 9 and a basic food farm, and collecting clay and sand and gravel/flint, and _then_ i delve down, simultaneously getting first real amounts of metal apart from the basic scissor and bucket while also putting up a coke oven and smeltery. There's a lot of different ways to do it of course, but I never really feel my early game "stunted" because of that. Only end-game stuff requires so large amount of materials that it's an issue not to duplicate in my book, if you don't mind a bit of extra mining. And mining can be more fun if you put less focus towards maximizing results, but also exploring mineshafts and dungeons and doing random stuff, maybe putting up an oreberry farm etc.
And since a slag furnace is so extremely cheap (I mean, it's 22 cobble or something) I don't really see why you wouldn't have that, I don't see that as more limiting than having to build a regular furnace to get decent amount of food from meat.
But I don't really see it with how it's so essential. It completely depends on your goal with the map. If the goal is to get access to all materials automatically (just as an example) it will of course be the optimal way by far, but then it's kind of a natural part of the goal. If the goal is to build a nice house I don't see it as nearly as necessary, neither is it that important if your goal is to start up a huge golem-driven farm.
I mean yeah, it's effective and surely quickens up most stuff to do it, but unless your goal is to max output I don't see how it's that necessary. I usually don't get ore multiplication up at all (apart from maybe a slag furnace) until after maybe 4th to 6th minecraft day...
Sooner or later you'll want it, sure, but it's not the first thing you have to do on every map. I usually spend a day or three travelling around, trying to find a nice place to settle and maybe a village, plundering surface thaumcraft chests etc, and then maybe about a day or two setting up a nice first 9 by 9 and a basic food farm, and collecting clay and sand and gravel/flint, and _then_ i delve down, simultaneously getting first real amounts of metal apart from the basic scissor and bucket while also putting up a coke oven and smeltery. There's a lot of different ways to do it of course, but I never really feel my early game "stunted" because of that. Only end-game stuff requires so large amount of materials that it's an issue not to duplicate in my book, if you don't mind a bit of extra mining. And mining can be more fun if you put less focus towards maximizing results, but also exploring mineshafts and dungeons and doing random stuff, maybe putting up an oreberry farm etc.
And since a slag furnace is so extremely cheap (I mean, it's 22 cobble or something) I don't really see why you wouldn't have that, I don't see that as more limiting than having to build a regular furnace to get decent amount of food from meat.
Ah, hadn't remembered the AE grinder. It's good for the first few days, but I rapidly get annoyed after that. My nature doesn't like me not doubling ores when I have the potential to, it's probably just a hold-over from the IC2-dominated days, when iron and copper were so very valuable.
Tinker's Construct certainly asks if we can be interested in liquid alloying, so there is that. You could argue the motivation for keeping the metal as a liquid is increasingly heavy-handed, but it's tricky.
THe problem is to increase the storage density we need to start making hyperdense tanks (a single block holding 4096 buckets or better). Even ExtraUtils's relatively tame 256mb tank is considered "OP".
I do think it's a little odd for people to complain about storing liquids directly in anything greater than the steel tank 32buckets/block, but be fine to can it up and have 1,728 buckets worth in a diamond chest (or 7k of cobblestone, for that matter). Apparently, according to my calculations, by melting it down and storing it in cans, you can store 12k ingots worth of metal in a single diamond chest, which is quite impressive.
Also factor in how many ingots you can store in one drive from AE, or better yet in 10 drives inside an ME drive which is all contained within one block.
AE will probably surpass any kind of metal storage, but storing them as liquids sure does look cool.
AE will probably surpass any kind of metal storage, but storing them as liquids sure does look cool.
Because generally what "OP" means is "unfamiliar" or "meta-changing". We shouldn't ask, "Is this so powerful it changes the meta?" Instead we should ask, "Do I like the meta I end up with when I add this?"
The modded minecraft meta is a 2-way street. People want those supertanks because of the asymmetry and the increasing appearance of liquids in the game. Krapht & co may roll their eyes at how greedily gamers grab this, but it's worth noting that they were the ones who started the ball rolling on this.
Also, there are competing notions of what modded minecraft should be. GregT's vision of things is notably different, for example.
What if a set of around 4 mods changed the meta to this:
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1BZrEb-9ff4B24SZavvcEKCoDwTjWQs5VxJhFjveLOLk/edit?usp=sharing
You may need to zoom in to actually see anything.
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1BZrEb-9ff4B24SZavvcEKCoDwTjWQs5VxJhFjveLOLk/edit?usp=sharing
You may need to zoom in to actually see anything.
While I agree liquid storage has to be more end-game compact, I don't think it necessarily have to be that as early game. All tank solutions right now are earlygame (tanks, iron tanks) or midgame (steel tanks, ender tanks) accessible, and I'd prefer if a new more space efficient tank was considerably more expensive than steel tanks. I think liquid storage is generally fine, it's only when it comes to liquidized stackable blocks it can be an issue. And there's a simple solution to that:
Reduce the amount of liquid in a metal ingot. Right now one ingot is 144 mB, which means about 7 ingots per bucket or 111 ingots per tank/iron tank block or 222 ingots per steel tank block. If one ingot was instead 24 mB, one bucket would be about 41 ingots and one tank block could store about 10 stacks of ingots' worth. A steel tank block would be about 20 stacks of ingots worth. Since it's easy to slap down large tanks in a compact way (compared to chests) I think that could be enough by far for most purposes; a simple 3x3x3 steel tank would hold 36000 ingots which is enough for anything but the most massive systems.
While it can't compare with an advanced AE system, does it need to? Not everything has to be the most efficient, it can be enough if it's "efficient enough". If there are benefits to crafting from liquid metal it can be a relevant balance point: Do I want easy storage and access, or the other advantages (whatever they may be)?
That said, I'm one of those people who don't really like AE and feel it's a little too much of a "single magic block", unfortunately all item storage systems have flaws and to me, AE has the least flaws (together with RP2 when that existed).
Reduce the amount of liquid in a metal ingot. Right now one ingot is 144 mB, which means about 7 ingots per bucket or 111 ingots per tank/iron tank block or 222 ingots per steel tank block. If one ingot was instead 24 mB, one bucket would be about 41 ingots and one tank block could store about 10 stacks of ingots' worth. A steel tank block would be about 20 stacks of ingots worth. Since it's easy to slap down large tanks in a compact way (compared to chests) I think that could be enough by far for most purposes; a simple 3x3x3 steel tank would hold 36000 ingots which is enough for anything but the most massive systems.
While it can't compare with an advanced AE system, does it need to? Not everything has to be the most efficient, it can be enough if it's "efficient enough". If there are benefits to crafting from liquid metal it can be a relevant balance point: Do I want easy storage and access, or the other advantages (whatever they may be)?
That said, I'm one of those people who don't really like AE and feel it's a little too much of a "single magic block", unfortunately all item storage systems have flaws and to me, AE has the least flaws (together with RP2 when that existed).
Ah.
But aren't multiblocks still cool?[DOUBLEPOST=1377106885][/DOUBLEPOST]
I think MDiyo made the ingot-mb ratio like that for a reason. (a liquid block isn't a full storage block, aka 9 ingots, and it looks *about* 7/9 of a storage block. I personally think it's perfect.
Well, nothing says storage blocks have to be solid
and there's many things deviating from having a consistent size; just look at the tanks themselves, they can contain far more than one block's worth of liquid. Even the TiC lava tanks are a single block but can take three or four cubic metre's of lava.Wait what?
An ingot is 144mB. A block is 1296mB, meaning it's more than a bucket - or "source block" worth of liquid.
Mushroom taco's point is that a bucket occupies in the neighborhood of 7/9'ths of a block, and block of iron is made of 9 ingots. Thus, a bucket should be about 7/9's of 9 ingots, or 7 ingots.
However, sizes are rarely proportional in minecraft, and also there's no evidence that a block if iron is solid iron through and through ("storage block" isn't an official name AFAIK). So yeah, it's one possible approach, but not the only one that makes sense (an ingot put into a smeltery looks like a slab, for example) so I don't think it needs to be taken into too heavy account when determining issues regarding "balance".
However, sizes are rarely proportional in minecraft, and also there's no evidence that a block if iron is solid iron through and through ("storage block" isn't an official name AFAIK). So yeah, it's one possible approach, but not the only one that makes sense (an ingot put into a smeltery looks like a slab, for example) so I don't think it needs to be taken into too heavy account when determining issues regarding "balance".