I like FTB, but there's just 1 problem with it.

[Kiraaa]

As Bomb Bloke said, if you don't enjoy resource gathering then why not play in creative? You still have to find out a few things for yourself. EE would kill almost any type of farm. I would just have to make one ultra efficient farm stuff the materials into transmutation table and get EMC to buy everything else.Sure I could disable EE but many of the newer players might unintentionally ruin there experience through using EE. I like creating huge varieties of different farms adding my own unique touch to them and making them look nice. EE would kill that. I enjoyed creating steve cart tree farms just because it isn't creative doesn't stop it from being fun. I must mention that I simply don't understand those how don't enjoy resource gathering. It limits you, gives you something to work towards. Its just simply a huge aspect of the game that add a lot of fun and creativity.[DOUBLEPOST=1369581703][/DOUBLEPOST]

That's mostly because people tend to use creative mode as a hyperbole. "You're not playing it on the same level of difficulty as me? Might as well play creative." Survival with mods is just an extended version of creative mode if you wanna use hyperboles. "You can get infinite resources and fly around? Might as well play creative." There are differences. Creative you have no reason to build anything even if you can. Survival you must do certain things to attain certain things. This is where most people find their drive. Not all do and that is obvious by those who do play creative.

So instead of going directly to creative mob you want it to be build one massive farm then hit essentially creative mode.

 

[Shakie666]

As Bomb Bloke said, if you don't enjoy resource gathering then why not play in creative? You still have to find out a few things for yourself. EE would kill almost any type of farm. I would just have to make one ultra efficient farm stuff the materials into transmutation table and get EMC to buy everything else.Sure I could disable EE but many of the newer players might unintentionally ruin there experience through using EE. I like creating huge varieties of different farms adding my own unique touch to them and making them look nice. EE would kill that. I enjoyed creating steve cart tree farms just because it isn't creative doesn't stop it from being fun. I must mention that I simply don't understand those how don't enjoy resource gathering. It limits you, gives you something to work towards. Its just simply a huge aspect of the game that add a lot of fun and creativity.

Yes, its tons of fun strip-mining...

I'm not trying to be glib here but any method of resource gathering that doesn't require you to do anything (other than setting it up) doesn't count, since its not you doing the gathering, its a machine that will also automatically sort and process said resources.

 

[Hoff]

As Bomb Bloke said, if you don't enjoy resource gathering then why not play in creative? You still have to find out a few things for yourself. EE would kill almost any type of farm. I would just have to make one ultra efficient farm stuff the materials into transmutation table and get EMC to buy everything else.Sure I could disable EE but many of the newer players might unintentionally ruin there experience through using EE. I like creating huge varieties of different farms adding my own unique touch to them and making them look nice. EE would kill that. I enjoyed creating steve cart tree farms just because it isn't creative doesn't stop it from being fun. I must mention that I simply don't understand those how don't enjoy resource gathering. It limits you, gives you something to work towards. Its just simply a huge aspect of the game that add a lot of fun and creativity.

Again EE does not force you to use some ultra efficient farm. You can still make all the farms in the world. If you can't stand what EE does then like you said; disable it. Don't worry about new players; not all of them enjoy or will enjoy the things you do. Not to mention if you start out on something like EE then when you actually do make real farms you'll see the beauty in them. Through playing minecraft you eventually realize efficiency doesn't matter. It may still matter to some because that's what they enjoy but that's a different point.

EE does not kill the beauty and uniqueness of you farms, it merely offers something that is more efficient. Then again there is almost always something more efficient you could be doing. Being efficient isn't really the point of most things it's just doing them. You enjoyed making your steve's cart tree farm and it was fun? So was EE for me. Setting up mob farms and solar flowers and reed farms and everything else was loads of fun for me. What's the difference? It was more creative that an SC farm what makes it bad?

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it can't exist and something that caters to that is wrong.

 

[Jess887cp]

Well, I play FTB in creative sometimes, and I don't understand the dislike. I have a creative world that is a copy of my main one that I muck about in. I stay with my current level of techieness, no advancement of anything, but sometimes it's fun to just build.

EE doesn't stop you from setting up multiple farms. Sure, I'm the kind of guy who sets up a golem farm and then transmutes those into gold, but after a while I might decide to set up a huge mob-farm complex with every type of mob under the sun. (I did this in the twilight once.)

I guess it really just comes down to if you play semi-competitively on a server. Then EE can seem unfair and limiting, as everyone is in a fush to build huge high-tech bases to show off, and not enjoy building whatever. I have noticed many FTB bases are similar, to the point where there are threads where it's assumed that your base has "this part."

Even more simply; how you play? If you play towards a goal, EE seems like a shortcut, and then I could understand disliking it. I don't play like that though, I play to have stuff that pleases me. My playstyle isn't better or worse than any other, but it does require an mid-endgame setup to do properly, and I'll be damned if I want to spend much time mucking around in the resource gathering.

EDIT; Great mind's think alike, fools seldom differ

 

[tehBlobLord]

I find it almost funny how everybody talks about creating sorting systems as being necessary or a given. I've never made one in vanilla or FTB because I like sorting things manually. It takes maybe 4 seconds longer, but with the time the items would be in the tubes it basically negates the loss anyway.

 

[Jess887cp]

I find it almost funny how everybody talks about creating sorting systems as being necessary or a given. I've never made one in vanilla or FTB because I like sorting things manually. It takes maybe 4 seconds longer, but with the time the items would be in the tubes it basically negates the loss anyway.

You're more organized than most of us here then, or at least me. I don't even have designated chests or anything
Also depends on how many resources you're getting. You wouldn't manually sort a quarry.

 

[Kiraaa]

Yes, its tons of fun strip-mining...

I'm not trying to be glib here but any method of resource gathering that doesn't require you to do anything (other than setting it up) doesn't count, since its not you doing the gathering, its a machine that will also automatically sort and process said resources.

Rescource gathering doesn't need you to be the one gathering the rescource, it just needs you to have a mean of gathering such resource.

Again EE does not force you to use some ultra efficient farm. You can still make all the farms in the world. If you can't stand what EE does then like you said; disable it. Don't worry about new players; not all of them enjoy or will enjoy the things you do. Not to mention if you start out on something like EE then when you actually do make real farms you'll see the beauty in them. Through playing minecraft you eventually realize efficiency doesn't matter. It may still matter to some because that's what they enjoy but that's a different point.

EE does not kill the beauty and uniqueness of you farms, it merely offers something that is more efficient. Then again there is almost always something more efficient you could be doing. Being efficient isn't really the point of most things it's just doing them. You enjoyed making your steve's cart tree farm and it was fun? So was EE for me. Setting up mob farms and solar flowers and reed farms and everything else was loads of fun for me. What's the difference? It was more creative that an SC farm what makes it bad?

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it can't exist and something that caters to that is wrong.

I agree that EE doesn't force me to make ultra efficient farm but if you do then it will eliminate the need for making any other farm. It would destroy players who have long term goals of striving for end game content since such end game content could be accessed very quickly therefore eliminating there goals and creating boredom very quickly. I think a lot of player will agree that making farms aimlessly is rather boring. I also disagree about your point that efficiency doesn't matter. Efficiency also gives you something to strive for. It adds many goals to the game. Another thing I don't understand is why you believe that EE=Creative. For example as Etho has shown there are plenty of creative method of gathering materials, such as wood that are actually equally efficient to SC tree farm. I don't think many managed to think up of the idea of using mining lasers or TC for gathering wood.

I am also curious about what I am not understanding.[DOUBLEPOST=1369584639][/DOUBLEPOST]

I find it almost funny how everybody talks about creating sorting systems as being necessary or a given. I've never made one in vanilla or FTB because I like sorting things manually. It takes maybe 4 seconds longer, but with the time the items would be in the tubes it basically negates the loss anyway.

Like Jess said, once you reach a certain point in the game it becomes either spending hours sorting through acquired material from quarries or just poping items em in a enderchest that automatically sorts em.

 

[KirinDave]

All these mods are rather brilliant, but does anyone else get the feeling they discourage creativity? For example, a vanilla sorting system using hoppers + comparators is really quite ingenious. But with mods, you don't get any of this, you just build a single block that does it for you. With AE, you don't even need that. Logic gates are another thing that spring to mind: in vanilla you can build these lovely redstone contraptions that simulate logic gates, but with mods there's no reason to, you just get a block to do it for you. I just wondered what everyone else's thoughts were on this.

I do feel this way when I see epic redstone logic builds.

 

[Bomb Bloke]

Again EE does not force you to use some ultra efficient farm. You can still make all the farms in the world. If you can't stand what EE does then like you said; disable it. Don't worry about new players; not all of them enjoy or will enjoy the things you do. Not to mention if you start out on something like EE then when you actually do make real farms you'll see the beauty in them. Through playing minecraft you eventually realize efficiency doesn't matter. It may still matter to some because that's what they enjoy but that's a different point.

EE does not kill the beauty and uniqueness of you farms, it merely offers something that is more efficient. Then again there is almost always something more efficient you could be doing. Being efficient isn't really the point of most things it's just doing them. You enjoyed making your steve's cart tree farm and it was fun? So was EE for me. Setting up mob farms and solar flowers and reed farms and everything else was loads of fun for me. What's the difference? It was more creative that an SC farm what makes it bad?

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it can't exist and something that caters to that is wrong.

Again, everything you've said here could also be used to support creative mode.

Don't get me wrong, creative mode isn't an all-round bad thing. But on a survival based server, if you give everyone creative mode, you suddenly no longer have a survival-based server; in fact you may not even have a user base for long, because with nothing to work towards they're likely to get bored and leave (assuming they don't decide to perform some mega-builds). And in my view, the entire point to FTB is to have things to work towards (something vanilla is woefully short on; GregTech hardmode was like a dream come true for me).

You run the same risk with mods that raise "efficiency" to the point where you can have everything for very little actual work. Yes, there are those who will decide to use their massive wealth to build something massive... but those same people probably would've built something even more massive if they'd just been straight up given creative mode. Those players who wanted more of a "survival" experience (working towards goals, then onwards towards bigger goals, etc) will likely just get bored and stop playing, as a series of goals will've been condensed to just a few - as though you'd just given them creative mode.

Sure, there are some people for whom EE strikes the perfect balance of challenge vs reward, and that's fine. Players should play what they want to play, and it's a good thing that there's a mod that suits them. But I suspect such players would be in the minority, meaning that server owners should think twice about using it, just as they should think twice about using more challenging mods (like GT hardmode).

 

[MektonZero]

Yeah, the condenser is super cool. Just without super expensive blocks that give you free energy.

As opposed to what, a cow in a box getting you over 500 diamonds an hour for free? Collectors were always a horribly inefficient method for getting EMC compared to the alternatives.

 

[Hoff]

I agree that EE doesn't force me to make ultra efficient farm but if you do then it will eliminate the need for making any other farm. It would destroy players who have long term goals of striving for end game content since such end game content could be accessed very quickly therefore eliminating there goals and creating boredom very quickly. I think a lot of player will agree that making farms aimlessly is rather boring.

So don't build it? Why does it matter if I can build it or anyone else?It doesn't destroy their long term goals if they don't use it. They'd still have to build farms to get what they needed if they don't use it. If you choose to use it the blame lies solely with you. Also many people build purely aesthetically. Just because you find it boring doesn't mean they do.

I also disagree about your point that efficiency doesn't matter. Efficiency also gives you something to strive for. It adds many goals to the game. Another thing I don't understand is why you believe that EE=Creative. For example as Etho has shown there are plenty of creative method of gathering materials, such as wood that are actually equally efficient to SC tree farm. I don't think many managed to think up of the idea of using mining lasers or TC for gathering wood.

Then live by efficiency. In minecraft it does not matter. You even said it in this post:

Like Jess said, once you reach a certain point in the game it becomes either spending hours sorting through acquired material from quarries or just poping items em in a enderchest that automatically sorts em.

You just said it wrong. At any point in the game it all boils down to them time you want to invest and how much you want to power game. You can reach end game within a day or two if you really wanted to.

I also don't believe EE is creative. I argued against that because many people choose to use the argument that EE IS creative. It merely offered an option to skip, what is for some, the boring part of minecraft. I've never seen his methods but I can guarantee they are not as efficient. They might produce as much wood/saplings but I guarantee they take more to maintain. Again you could have still come up with this stuff during EE2. I believe it was mattabase that made a tree farm using RP2 and the EE2 Red Matter axe. ingenuitive as hell. You are the only one that limits your creativity and gameplay. Mods merely offer options. If a mod offers an option that is unappealing to you; don't use it.

I am also curious about what I am not understanding.

Uhhh...

I must mention that I simply don't understand those how don't enjoy resource gathering. It limits you, gives you something to work towards. Its just simply a huge aspect of the game that add a lot of fun and creativity.

So instead of going directly to creative mob you want it to be build one massive farm then hit essentially creative mode.

I'll answer this here since it wasn't there before.

I find it ironic that you accuse me of saying EE=creative but said so yourself in a previous post. I also find it ironic that people say that something that gives you creative mode takes away from creativity.

I also didn't hit "creative mode" at that point in my game. I also had to come up with that on my own. It doesn't matter though how you think I should play or your opinion on what I enjoy. They simply are what I enjoy and they simply are what you enjoy.

 

[Hoff]

Again, everything you've said here could also be used to support creative mode.

Don't get me wrong, creative mode isn't an all-round bad thing. But on a survival based server, if you give everyone creative mode, you suddenly no longer have a survival-based server; in fact you may not even have a user base for long, because with nothing to work towards they're likely to get bored and leave (assuming they don't decide to perform some mega-builds). And in my view, the entire point to FTB is to have things to work towards (something vanilla is woefully short on; GregTech hardmode was like a dream come true for me).

Again having goals may be the point for many but it is not for all. For some they may even be discouraging. I personally despise goals because it means I have to take some sort of progression. I prefer to just able to do something. I don't like creative mode though because there is no reason to do it. I don't like just building stuff I like building functional stuff but being able to do it all at once. And really servers are not the end all be all of how a mod should act. The server settings could simply include such mods with them, by default, disabled. Though if a server OP chooses to add EE then that is their choice and your choice to join such a server. If they wish for the server to be survival-creative that's their choice. Not every server is made to meet the needs of the majority.

You run the same risk with mods that raise "efficiency" to the point where you can have everything for very little actual work. Yes, there are those who will decide to use their massive wealth to build something massive... but those same people probably would've built something even more massive if they'd just been straight up given creative mode. Those players who wanted more of a "survival" experience (working towards goals, then onwards towards bigger goals, etc) will likely just get bored and stop playing, as a series of goals will've been condensed to just a few - as though you'd just given them creative mode.

Not necessarily. I wouldn't build a damned thing in pure creative mode. I have no need to. In survival you have a reason to. You can't always just have what you need so you have reasons to build something that will make that so, for me at least. They chose to condense those goals though. They chose to take the easy route or, in other words, the route that does not suit them. If you want a pure survival experience then play the way that accommodates that. Don't try to play like someone who just wants to sit on tons of stuff just because.

Sure, there are some people for whom EE strikes the perfect balance of challenge vs reward, and that's fine. Players should play what they want to play, and it's a good thing that there's a mod that suits them. But I suspect such players would be in the minority, meaning that server owners should think twice about using it, just as they should think twice about using more challenging mods (like GT hardmode).

Server owners do not have to cater to the players on their server. It's their server. It may make them a bad server to them but who cares? Find a different server. Don't like any server? Make your own. Don't want to? Play singleplayer. Don't want to? You're a lazy and SoL.

 

[KirinDave]

Again, everything you've said here could also be used to support creative mode.

Don't get me wrong, creative mode isn't an all-round bad thing. But on a survival based server, if you give everyone creative mode, you suddenly no longer have a survival-based server; in fact you may not even have a user base for long, because with nothing to work towards they're likely to get bored and leave (assuming they don't decide to perform some mega-builds). And in my view, the entire point to FTB is to have things to work towards (something vanilla is woefully short on; GregTech hardmode was like a dream come true for me).

I just wanna chime in that there are two kinds of players talking here. Bomb Bloke prefers guided progressions. He doesn't feel comfortable setting his own goals in a game, he expects them to guide him. Greg does a really good job of this; as it has multiple progressions and the output of these progressions is a new machine/system/battery that can do everything the old one could do, but enables you to take on the next challenge.

Other people prefer mods that enable them to define their own goals. These goals are exactly as arbitrary as the mod-set goals like GT, but tend to be self-directed. For me, there is no joy in building the GT suite unless it enables me to build something awesome (that is not just another gt machine). But for some people, there is no point to building a "pointless" object.

Both play styles have a place in the ModMC world and they are both equally valid.

It is important to try and remember this when arguing about mods like EE.

 

[Chocorate]

As opposed to what, a cow in a box getting you over 500 diamonds an hour for free? Collectors were always a horribly inefficient method for getting EMC compared to the alternatives.

I think that comes down to EMC values, not the block. The EMC value for milk and such should be severely nerfed. It gave you more EMC for right clicking a cow than for breaking sand or dirt.

I also don't believe EE is creative. I argued against that because many people choose to use the argument that EE IS creative. It merely offered an option to skip, what is for some, the boring part of minecraft. I've never seen his methods but I can guarantee they are not as efficient. They might produce as much wood/saplings but I guarantee they take more to maintain. Again you could have still come up with this stuff during EE2. I believe it was mattabase that made a tree farm using RP2 and the EE2 Red Matter axe. ingenuitive as @#!*% . You are the only one that limits your creativity and gameplay. Mods merely offer options. If a mod offers an option that is unappealing to you; don't use it.

EE offers a way to bypass the luck and chance of ore spawn and other such things in Minecraft. You might even say this makes the mod more tech-themed, in that you can use numbers and calculations and amounts instead of luck. People want to say Minecraft should be about luck that this mod shouldn't do that? I could say the same thing about automation or DivineRPG. Mods add what you want to Minecraft. And they're not actually mandatory.

 

[Kiraaa]

So don't build it? Why does it matter if I can build it or anyone else?It doesn't destroy their long term goals if they don't use it. They'd still have to build farms to get what they needed if they don't use it. If you choose to use it the blame lies solely with you. Also many people build purely aesthetically. Just because you find it boring doesn't mean they do.

If you build something purely for aesthetics then although this point is getting redundant I must say use creative mode. If they don't use EE then why have it there, im arguing why it shouldn't be put in the modpack since I feel its the best option.

You just said it wrong. At any point in the game it all boils down to them time you want to invest and how much you want to power game. You can reach end game within a day or two if you really wanted to.

But I would rather invest my time in something I consider funner then sorting through items. I suppose it is personal preference.

I also don't believe EE is creative. I argued against that because many people choose to use the argument that EE IS creative. It merely offered an option to skip, what is for some, the boring part of minecraft. I've never seen his methods but I can guarantee they are not as efficient. They might produce as much wood/saplings but I guarantee they take more to maintain. Again you could have still come up with this stuff during EE2. I believe it was mattabase that made a tree farm using RP2 and the EE2 Red Matter axe. ingenuitive as hell. You are the only one that limits your creativity and gameplay. Mods merely offer options. If a mod offers an option that is unappealing to you; don't use it.

I think I wrote that statement poorly, I meant why do you think that adding EE will create more creativity. Regarding Etho's build they required no maintenance if done properly. What I was arguing was that EE2 did not create more creativity. There is always that argument, don't like the mod then don't use it. Like I said previously im arguing for why I think this would have a negative impact for most people if added to the modpack.


I'll answer this here since it wasn't there before.

I find it ironic that you accuse me of saying EE=creative but said so yourself in a previous post. I also find it ironic that people say that something that gives you creative mode takes away from creativity.

I also didn't hit "creative mode" at that point in my game. I also had to come up with that on my own. It doesn't matter though how you think I should play or your opinion on what I enjoy. They simply are what I enjoy and they simply are what you enjoy.

I personally don't think creative mod takes away from creativity but just destroys motivation because of lack of goals that you would otherwise get in survival.

Now lets think a bit broadly then that. Is what I enjoy what the majority enjoy or is what you enjoy what the majority enjoys?

 

[epicninja]

If you don't like blocks that do things for you then why are you playing ftb?

Vanilla minecraft in a nutshell: chop, craft, mine, mine, mine, craft, mine, bored, the end, die, rage quit.

 

[Chocorate]

I personally don't think creative mod takes away from creativity but just destroys motivation because of lack of goals that you would otherwise get in survival.

Now lets think a bit broadly then that. Is what I enjoy what the majority enjoy or is what you enjoy what the majority enjoys?

 

[Hoff]

I personally don't think creative mod takes away from creativity but just destroys motivation because of lack of goals that you would otherwise get in survival.

Now lets think a bit broadly then that. Is what I enjoy what the majority enjoy or is what you enjoy what the majority enjoys?

Not everyone enjoys pre-set goals. That doesn't mean they can only play creative. Just because your motivation comes from something like the goals that can be available in survival doesn't mean everyone else does.

It also doesn't matter who is the majority or the minority. If you think it does then you are beyond debating with.

 

[KirinDave]

If you don't like blocks that do things for you then why are you playing ftb?

Vanilla minecraft in a nutshell: chop, craft, mine, mine, mine, craft, mine, bored, the end, die, rage quit.

For me, ftb greatly expands the scope and complexity of what I can build. I never rage quit vanilla because.... I am not a huge crybaby.

 

[Chocorate]

Not everyone enjoys pre-set goals. That doesn't mean they can only play creative. Just because your motivation comes from something like the goals that can be available in survival doesn't mean everyone else does.

It also doesn't matter who is the majority or the minority. If you think it does then you are beyond debating with.

I want to have a lot of power, while I play "survival" and its goals. I think of EE as less of an extra power, and more of a mechanic. The transmutation Tablet? That doesn't actually give you anything for free. It doesn't give you more power. It's neutral. It's just another way to play the game. Like how TE is based around the energy states of blocks, and turning stuff into ice or lava etc.? EE lets you turn the stuff you might not want (like ic2 rubber sapling and rubber) into stuff you actually want. If you're going out of your way to harvest said thing and you don't want it, you should be rewarded. The only trivial part of the matter at all is EMC values and getting those accurate. Sadly that does not seem to be the direction Pahimar is taking, what with the durability and costs and materials and overall in-equivalency of things. Guess I'll be waiting for EE4. or I'll just use Ars Magicka.