How would you balance SFM recipes?

[Hoff]

SFM = Steve's Factory Manager

I'm currently working on a pack and want to re-balance the recipes a bit. I've already decided on a recipe for the basic cables and a recipe for the Machine Inventory Manager as seen below. I'm looking for some suggestions on the recipes for all the other blocks. Any input is welcome!

Spoiler: Basic Cable

Top row is itemducts(opaque or see-through) or EnderIO basic item conduits.
Center is a "basic" circuit of which I've added several different types. Invar on either side.
Bottom row is opaque fluiducts or basic fluid conduits.

Spoiler: Machine Inventory Manager

Invar in a helmet shape.
Center is an "advanced" circuit. Again I've added several different types and crafting recipes.
Bottom left is an impulse itemduct(opaque or see-through) or an empowered item conduit.
Bottom right is a see-through fluiduct or a pressurized fluid conduit.

Mod list for available item reference:

Spoiler

1.6.4-SortFix-1.0
advancedgenetics-1.4.3-1.6
Agriculture-1.6.4-1.2.13
appeng-rv14-finale3-mc16x
Aroma1997Core MC.1.6.4 v.1.0.1.5
AromaBackup MC.1.6.4 v.0.0.0.0
autoutils-1.6.4-1.0.1
bdlib-mc164-1.2.2.45
betterstorage-1.6.4-0.8.0.47
BigReactors-0.3.4A2
binnie-mods-1.8.0
BiomesOPlenty-universal-1.6.4-1.2.1.416
buildcraft-A-1.6.4-4.2.2
ChickenChunks 1.3.3.4
chisel-1.6.4-1.5.2
CodeChickenCore 0.9.0.9
CoFHCore-2.0.0.5
crowley-skyblock-v1.29e
denLib-1.6.4-3.2.6
Enchiridion-1.6.4-1.1
EnderIO-1.6.4-0.11.1.315
EnderStorage 1.4.3.6
enhancedcore_1.1.3
enhancedportals-2_1.0.9
EnviroMine-v1.1.63
Evoc_1.0.0a
ExtraCells-1.6.9b
FinndusFillies-1.6.2-universal-1.0.0.7
Flatsigns-1.6.2-universal-1.4.0.15
forestry-A-2.3.1.1
furnituremodv3.3.3(1.6.4)
gendustry-mc164-1.1.2.72
HarvestCraftWaila-mc1.6.4-1.0.4
InfiniBows-1.6.4-universal-coremod-1.2.0.14
InGameInfoXML-1.6.4-2.5.1.37-client
InventoryTweaks-MC1.6.2-1.56-b77
KeithyUtils-1.6.4-1.2.26
Mariculture-1.6.4-1.2.2f
Mekanism-6.0.5.46
MekanismGenerators-6.0.5.46
MineFactoryReloaded-2.7.9-final
MobiusCore_1.2.2_1.6.4
ModTweaker-1.6.4-0.3
Natura_mc1.6.X_2.1.14
neiaddons-mc164-1.10.5.70
NEIPlugins-1.1.0.6
NetherOres-2.2.2-55
NotEnoughItems 1.6.1.9
NotEnoughKeys-1.6.4-0.0.4
obsidiplates-1.6.2-universal-2.0.0.15
OpenBlocks-1.2.8
OpenModsLib-0.5
OpenPeripheralAddons-0.1.1
OpenPeripheralCore-0.3.1
PluginsforForestry-1.6.4-3.2.30-hotfix
PowerCrystalsCore-1.1.8-9
Railcraft_1.6.4-8.4.0.0
Random Things v. 1.9 [MC 1.6.4]
RedstoneArsenal-1.0.0.0
SimplyJetpacks-0.3.1
SpiceOfLife-mc1.6.4-1.0.3c
TConstruct_mc1.6.4_1.5.5.7
ThermalExpansion-3.0.0.7
TiCTooltips-mc1.6.4-1.1.8
tictweaks-1.6.4-1.0.3
TMechworks_mc1.6.4_0.1.6
TSteelworks-mc1.6.4_0.0.4.2-fix2
WailaHarvestability-mc1.6.4-1.0.3
Warp-Book-1.6.4-0.0.200c
zMineTweaker-1.6.4-2.3.1
1.6.4 DamageIndicatorsv2.9.2.3
archimedesships
BiblioCraft[v1.5.5]
bibliowoods[biomesoplenty][v1.3]
bibliowoods[natura][v1.1]
carpentersblocks v2.1.0 - MC 1.6+
ComputerCraft1.58
DragonAPI 1.6 v25z
exaliquo_0.11.2
extrautils-1.0.3c
Highlands2.1.7_MC1.6.4
hungeroverhaul-1.6.X-2l-build4
InfernalMobs_1.6.4
ironchest-universal-1.6.4-5.4.1.702
JABBA_1.1.4
Pam's HarvestCraft 1.6.4 v1.1.4
PneumaticCraft 1.1.4f
PortalGun2.0.2
roguelike-v1.3.0-forge-1.6.4
RotaryCraft 1.6 v25z
SpecialMobs 3.0 for MC 1.6.2
StevesCarts2.0.0.b10
StevesFactoryManagerA83
Sync2.2.3
util^iChunUtil2.4.0
Waila_1.5.2a
ZansMinimap1.6.4

 

[Folanlron]

TPPI pack did a really good balance of the SFM recipes, making them closer to a AE style recipe, might wanna check it out.

 

[Hoff]

TPPI pack did a really good balance of the SFM recipes, making them closer to a AE style recipe, might wanna check it out.

Last I heard TPPI was a bit more intensive than I want. If that's changed then I might give it a look. Thanks though.

E:
Ah nevermind. Those recipes are actually a bit weak haha. Either way I don't want to use AE as a mod for gating as I don't want it to be a necessary mod route.

 

[pizzawolf14]

I think these are both fair prices. Well done!

 

[TomeWyrm]

For the mod itself, or in a pack? Because in a pack the Factory Manager isn't too bad. Inventory cables are useless by themselves and can be required in VERY large amounts, you should be targeting the other blocks made with the cables, not the cables themselves. Be careful about making expected tech progression different between mods though. It's the biggest problem I have with packs like AgSkies and Crash Landing. The absolutely impenetrable reasoning behind the differing costs for blocks that do that same thing. Or blocks that are removed but have obvious alternates that aren't.

In a mod agnostic environment though? Where it's meant to work across lots of packs? I think it is a horrible idea, personally. You have to use all vanilla materials because you can never guarnatee that anyone is using TE or EnderIO (I use neither in my packs), and much like ComputerCraft, it's not that powerful unless you're actually good at the mod, at which point no recipe will ever be expensive enough to offset the "OP". There are people that complain about CC and OC and "balance" all over the place and it will never be resolved because people are just different.

 

[Hoff]

@TomeWyrm
In a pack and the mix mod consistency is my goal. The difference is there are an amalgamation of "main" mods to choose from with only a couple being mandatory at the beginning. The idea is that there will be an initial "medieval" period where you can't access any tech mods machine or power wise. I'm going to take a similar approach to the smeltery as with CL but not in the way of cities rather that to make it any larger that the initial one that will be given you. After which there will be several "entry" level tech mods after which you'll be able to expand in to others. Haven't decided on any endgame mods/tech as of yet but I will.

I'm also not aiming to balance out the capabilities of SFM(Or CC since it's in the pack as well) but instead gate them to be at a time when you have access to mods with similar capabilities.

Also sort of looking for themed combination recipes so for a item valve it'd require a couple vacuum hoppers and maybe a basic circuit. The idea behind keeping all the blocks somewhat expensive is that either you'll have to heavily invest a majority of your materials in it or invest your materials in a way to automatically gather materials(or gather the materials by hand in the "medieval age" at the expense of time) which should hopefully be around the same price range so it requires actual choice.

 

[TomeWyrm]

Pack makers need a way to integrate a detection system like HQM and recipe "unlocks"... it would fix a lot of these issues where gating can make things too much more expensive.

It would also enable things like the Refugee to Regent challenge to have a pack and NOT have you look at the wiki all the time.

I'd still suggest moving the inventory cable back down the tree, because it is nearly 100% useless by itself, pretty much only as a crafting material is why it's getting more expensive here, and then it becomes a bit too expensive to be used as a cable for builds that need more than a tiny handful of them.

 

[Hoff]

I disagree. I much prefer needing far more resources to advance to a new stage. In a mod agnostic environment personally I usually end up with a ridiculous amount of all the types of metals and even in packs like AgS and CL I do the same. Never any way to use all the material I spend the time gathering.

It would be interesting to make something to make Refugee a thing but it'd need a whole mod of its own to make it work right. Certainly not something to be expected of HQM, imo.

The whole idea is that either you'll only be able to use a handful of them at first or none at all. Later on the recipes really won't bother anyone in the pack. It's not meant to be a pack you can just choose to do one mod or another right away akin to Monster, Ultimate, etc. You will HAVE to go down specific paths but there will be multiple to choose from.

 

[Golrith]

I've done something very similar in my pack (designed for more survival challenge, and more resource management). A Pneucraft PCB or top tier circuit from Mek as part of the manager recipe, then various different cable recipes using all the different circuits with different output quantities (from 2 to 8).
Both options require some form of progression in either mod before access to the powerful tool of SFM. It's also consistant with the PC drones, which also need PCBs.

Here's my scripts (for 1.7.10):

recipes.remove(<StevesFactoryManager:BlockMachineManagerName>);
recipes.addShaped(<StevesFactoryManager:BlockMachineManagerName>,[[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<PneumaticCraft:printedCircuitBoard>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>],[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<minecraft:redstone_block>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>],[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<ThermalExpansion:augment:0>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>]]);
recipes.addShaped(<StevesFactoryManager:BlockMachineManagerName>,[[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<Mekanism:ControlCircuit:3>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>],[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<minecraft:redstone_block>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>],[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<ThermalExpansion:augment:0>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>]]);

recipes.remove(<StevesFactoryManager:BlockCableName>);
recipes.addShaped(<StevesFactoryManager:BlockCableName>*8,[[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null],[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<PneumaticCraft:printedCircuitBoard>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>],[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null]]);
recipes.addShaped(<StevesFactoryManager:BlockCableName>*6,[[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null],[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<Mekanism:ControlCircuit:3>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>],[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null]]);
recipes.addShaped(<StevesFactoryManager:BlockCableName>*4,[[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null],[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<Mekanism:ControlCircuit:2>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>],[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null]]);
recipes.addShaped(<StevesFactoryManager:BlockCableName>*2,[[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null],[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<Mekanism:ControlCircuit:1>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>],[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null]]);
recipes.addShaped(<StevesFactoryManager:BlockCableName>*1,[[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null],[<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,<Mekanism:ControlCircuit:0>,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>],[null,<Railcraft:part.plate:1>,null]]);

 

[Hoff]

-snip-

Alright two things:

I'm REALLY glad you posted that because I forgot all about adding a way to make some kind of circuits form railcraft.

Second; does mek add those new circuit types specifically in 1.7.10? The only one I found in the 1.6.4 was the basic circuit.

E: Also forgot to add BC item pipes for basic and probably logistics pipes for the advanced one...

Many good ideas ^_^

 

[jordsta95]

The advanced circuits were added in 1.7, so yeah. You can't get them in 1.6.

Maybe you could use Atomic Cores instead of the circuits for 1.6?

 

[Hoff]

The advanced circuits were added in 1.7, so yeah. You can't get them in 1.6.

Maybe you could use Atomic Cores instead of the circuits for 1.6?

Nah I was just wondering. Always looking for more circuits to modify and/or make interchangeable

 

[jordsta95]

Nah I was just wondering. Always looking for more circuits to modify and/or make interchangeable

Oh, for stuff like IC2 etc. (Basic circuit (Mekanism) = Circuit (IC2) sorta thing?)

 

[Hoff]

Yeah minus the IC2. I'm using a number of tech mods and removing/replacing recipes to make them all about similar yet need to be processed by different mods to craft them.

 

[Golrith]

Alright two things:

I'm REALLY glad you posted that because I forgot all about adding a way to make some kind of circuits form railcraft.

Second; does mek add those new circuit types specifically in 1.7.10? The only one I found in the 1.6.4 was the basic circuit.

E: Also forgot to add BC item pipes for basic and probably logistics pipes for the advanced one...

Many good ideas ^_^

Yeah, mek adds new circuits in 1.7.10, although TBH, there wasn't any need. They are hardly used (also, not keen on most of the recipe changes in 1.7.10, very unimaginative).

 

[TomeWyrm]

Blech, PCB's. That's one half of the reason I never got into AE in Crash Landing... the other being the TE-ecosystem materials like Enderium and Fluxed Electrum. I've made a build at least once every single month to automate those two materials... they're tired and overplayed for me. It was neat at first, and then I realized just how tedious it was to replicate my 17th setup to put in 3 tin ingots, a shiny ingot, 4 ender pearls, a bucket, and some pyrotheum into the Pulverizer, Pulverizer, Magma Crucible, some autocrafter, and the Induction smelter respectively and wait for my ingots to come out the other side... of just automate it with some form of level emitter (even a vanilla comparator) to just stock a bunch of them.

I get that you're trying to make the powerful stuff later in the tech tree... but ye gods, can you do it without using such a tedious and HORRIFICALLY simple automation process?

I mean for power I just dug 10 blocks down and spammed 80-odd Survivalists generators instead of upgrading to the next tier of generator (Furnace, right?) simply because I could give a crap about heat (out of range), and I had a tree farm, so infinite charcoal was easy. One Item Transfer node and Barrel later, and if I needed more power I just made a few more generators. That's how "eww" the circuit boards were to me. I could have used the Pneumaticraft Drone, and a second (or second and third) Pressure Chamber and automated the whole process of PCB's... but I didn't because why? That so overtrivializes the process and I have a resource flow that's insane that there's no point to changing the recipes IMO. Ooooh I wait 5 minutes to set up yet another level-emitter or backstuff based infinite-feed autoproducer and then your changes are trivialized... so why make me wait 5 more minutes in the first place?

I had the same problem with Agrarian Skies and the MFR upgrades... for the longest time Jadedcat had the diamond and emerald upgrades after the Enderium and Fluxed Electrum ones... and diamonds/emeralds were SIGNIFICANTLY easier to get (by the time I was setting up my tree farms I usually had 10+ of both). It's like: Why bother? I'm either making a bunch of them that are specialized for one crop or another, or I'll make one megafarm for everything... your tech tree changes make no sense.

What enjoy is something more like RotaryCraft and *shudder* GregTech. They gate their progress behind a material or process you don't have yet, and then make a (relatively) easily automated process to get more of that material once you've made it the hard way a few times (or even the very machine that opens up the gate in most cases for RoC). Things like TE are... silly... to gate their progression behind (In *MY* Opinion) because the builds have been done a thousand times. There are easy ways in nearly every mod to pump them out pretty much constantly or on demand to whatever level and amount you feel like. It's like mining for diamonds by hand... so old there's 50 different kinds of autominers because I'm bored with digging in the same pattern for hours on end. It's difficulty of the "let's make them wait for the first dozen of these" kind... which is just... annoying, at least to me.

 

[Hoff]

I can understand that you don't like that type of gating but I do. That's part of the way my pack will be centered.

What enjoy is something more like RotaryCraft and *shudder* GregTech. They gate their progress behind a material or process you don't have yet, and then make a (relatively) easily automated process to get more of that material once you've made it the hard way a few times (or even the very machine that opens up the gate in most cases for RoC). Things like TE are... silly... to gate their progression behind (In *MY* Opinion) because the builds have been done a thousand times. There are easy ways in nearly every mod to pump them out pretty much constantly or on demand to whatever level and amount you feel like. It's like mining for diamonds by hand... so old there's 50 different kinds of autominers because I'm bored with digging in the same pattern for hours on end. It's difficulty of the "let's make them wait for the first dozen of these" kind... which is just... annoying, at least to me.

See I also have some of that as well. I'm trying to make it so that until you're able to get a smeltery up or some other way to create "mix" ingots like invar and eletrum you can't start tech. Then once you do start tech you can't get into other "better" tech until you've started one of the lower tier techs to be able to create circuits. Then you'll need advanced and ultimate circuits for some of the even higher tier tech. It's also part of the point of the pack to force you to either use mods you wouldn't normally use on a large scale. Don't like PC? That's fine there are 4 other ways to make basic circuits and a couple other ways to make advanced. I'm trying to make it so you're not punished for not doing any other tech mods just that you don't reap all the rewards of it.

 

[Golrith]

I can understand that you don't like that type of gating but I do. That's part of the way my pack will be centered.



See I also have some of that as well. I'm trying to make it so that until you're able to get a smeltery up or some other way to create "mix" ingots like invar and eletrum you can't start tech. Then once you do start tech you can't get into other "better" tech until you've started one of the lower tier techs to be able to create circuits. Then you'll need advanced and ultimate circuits for some of the even higher tier tech. It's also part of the point of the pack to force you to either use mods you wouldn't normally use on a large scale. Don't like PC? That's fine there are 4 other ways to make basic circuits and a couple other ways to make advanced. I'm trying to make it so you're not punished for not doing any other tech mods just that you don't reap all the rewards of it.

Those ideas are almost the same as my Omega Dawn pack (great minds think alike eh? ). Tech is gated behind steel (plus osmium, aluminium and rubber) (in fact, you need steel plates, but there are two ways of obtaining them, one more efficient than the other), and circuits are used for any item/block that has "magic intelligence", and there are multiple ways of crafting those circuits (some more efficient than others).
I try to ensure there are multiple paths to pick from, so it's not just a case of Mod A to Mod B. Not ideal, as my knowledge of all the mods is limited, but I'll keep tweaking as I play. The important thing is I also don't make a change I'm not happy to play with.

It's an extra level to crafting, but without feeling too grindy, and also gives more feeling of accomplishment.

 

[jordsta95]

See I also have some of that as well. I'm trying to make it so that until you're able to get a smeltery up or some other way to create "mix" ingots like invar and eletrum you can't start tech.

Well if you use the mod Tabula Rasu (can't remember the spelling) or make your own mod that adds just a few items (ingots) then you can have modtweaker/minetweaker do the rest.
So add your "blend ingot" to the game using T.R. or your own little addition, and then use mod tweaker to have the smeltery make your "blend ingot" using 2-3 ingots (maybe invar and gold?) and give out 2 ingots per thing. Or if you don't have TiCon but have another mod, that modtweaker 2 supports, that could enable mixing of ingots (TE induction smelter?) then have that make the new ingot?

 

[Hoff]

Those ideas are almost the same as my Omega Dawn pack (great minds think alike eh? ). Tech is gated behind steel (plus osmium, aluminium and rubber) (in fact, you need steel plates, but there are two ways of obtaining them, one more efficient than the other), and circuits are used for any item/block that has "magic intelligence", and there are multiple ways of crafting those circuits (some more efficient than others).
I try to ensure there are multiple paths to pick from, so it's not just a case of Mod A to Mod B. Not ideal, as my knowledge of all the mods is limited, but I'll keep tweaking as I play. The important thing is I also don't make a change I'm not happy to play with.

It's an extra level to crafting, but without feeling too grindy, and also gives more feeling of accomplishment.

Steel is another nice gating ingot... Might need to add a better smeltery recipe... though the RC blast furnace will be obtainable without chips...

Well if you use the mod Tabula Rasu (can't remember the spelling) or make your own mod that adds just a few items (ingots) then you can have modtweaker/minetweaker do the rest.
So add your "blend ingot" to the game using T.R. or your own little addition, and then use mod tweaker to have the smeltery make your "blend ingot" using 2-3 ingots (maybe invar and gold?) and give out 2 ingots per thing. Or if you don't have TiCon but have another mod, that modtweaker 2 supports, that could enable mixing of ingots (TE induction smelter?) then have that make the new ingot?

Potentially at a later date. I'm no good at making textures or graphics in general.