Getting opinions on RotaryFlux and my responses

[Reika]

What rights exactly? Copyright prevents others claiming your work as theirs.
This guy is not distributing RoC or claiming it as his own.
What actual right is @Reika claiming here?

All of the usual "though shalt not reverse engineer" bullcrap is added to licensed software with EULAs. And, in installing RoC (that one time, long ago when I did), there was no EULA. So copyright stands. But I'm not at all sure why @Reika is asserting I should not be permitted to open his .jar with a zip tool. Or view the .class files therein in a binary viewer. Or disassemble the bytecodes. None of these activities infringe @Reika's clear and manifest copyright claim.

This is nothing about the other "modder". This is about end users. @Reika appears to be claiming that end users who install RoC should be prevented from installing some other mod? Because its author opened the roc.jar file?

Where does this pervasive idea that because I am using your software, you get to control my mind, come from? Keep out my head. And out my mod collection. The other mods I choose to put in my pack are no concern of anyones.

This is about the fact I should have some say in how my own project behaves, especially where someone is deliberately going out of their way to do something against my wishes and that stands to cause me major problems, and that "player choice" is not the total trump card it is so commonly touted as. What if someone made a mod that caused RC to crash, just for the hell of it? Presumably, you would not object to my blocking it from working, so what is different here?

 

[Kotaro]

This is nothing about the other "modder". This is about end users. @Reika appears to be claiming that end users who install RoC should be prevented from installing some other mod? Because its author opened the roc.jar file?

Where does this pervasive idea that because I am using your software, you get to control my mind, come from? Keep out my head. And out my mod collection. The other mods I choose to put in my pack are no concern of anyones.

I'm starting to think you're arguing about something completely different. I just went to go read the first post, and it says nothing about forcing people not to install it or what mods RC can run with our without. In fact, the options were "Resolve diplomatically" or "change code so this can't be done". You can have both mods, no one is stopping you. It just might not work as advertised.

 

[GreenZombie]

This is about the fact I should have some say in how my own project behaves, and that "player choice" is not the total trump card it is so commonly touted as. What if someone made a mod that caused RC to crash, just for the hell of it? Presumably, you would not object to my blocking it from working, so what is different here?

A mod that crashes RC on purpose? Fantastic strawman. Actually I would object to you fixing it because, as a user wanting to play RoC I just wouldn't install the other mod.

And while I believe your intentions for RoCs usage should be considered by the community I believe that that is derived from the respect we have for you as an author who is providing us with free goodies after all rather than any natural, or legal, right.

But also... Personally I do not use converters in my builds. I have ic2 machines running off ic2 nuke power. I have RF machines running off a big reactor. So I *get* the hard mode play style. I used to have MJ machines running off oil. Nonetheless. If a player wants an RF only pack. Why the hell not? Someone like @rhn could do more with a RF integrated RoC machine than I ever could with RoC alone.

 

[InUniverse]

here's my opinion:
connecting conduits to shafts is really stupid. it's like seasoning a raw, unprepared orange.
i have no qualms with the existence of the mod, but i'll let you do what you want to it.

edit: oh god it mods your code at runtime?
no. that's horrible. that goes against all I know about your mods and opinions.
wow i should have read the op. that is ludicrous.

 

[trajing]

Look. If you use my software, it's my decision how you use it. Some coders simply refuse support. Others design it so that you can't use it in a way it wasn't intended to. It is entirely within my rights to do that. Mods are technically pieces of software that happen to modify a game. If I made another game, and built an interface into it that's identical to Forge's, along with a few core Minecraft things, nothing's stopping me from using a Forge mod in this new game. They'll still run. Forge is an API, an arbitrary level of abstraction that can be translated to anything else.
EDIT: And yes, I know I would run into some issues getting mods to run on another game, it's a hypothetical.

 

[RedBoss]

We can talk legality all day long. It doesn't matter until it hits the courts and a judge rules.

Has talking to the guy privately worked? Because we've got a whole brouhaha over an unreleased mod.

 

[KhrFreak]

So as far as i am understanding it while reading through this thread, he edited your base code and is now redistributing the edited version? (I am not a modder at all) Is it even released yet? Really depends on what he's redistributing IMHO.
If he's handing our your code with some tweaks I'd personally do something along the lines of changing class names or something so it won't launch properly, disable RoC, or maybe even hard crash if it detects RotaryFlux is installed. If he's not redistributing your code, while i still COMPLETELY disagree with the idea behind his mod I personally feel like a big warning in chat in all caps denying any form of support with that mod installed is really the most you can get away with with this community without people freaking out on you. I still hope you can talk with the author and get some sort of peaceful deal arranged. Just my two cents though.

 

[Strikingwolf]

So as far as i am understanding it while reading through this thread, he edited your base code and is now redistributing the edited version? (I am not a modder at all) Is it even released yet? Really depends on what he's redistributing IMHO.
If he's handing our your code with some tweaks I'd personally do something along the lines of changing class names or something so it won't launch properly, disable RoC, or maybe even hard crash if it detects RotaryFlux is installed. If he's not redistributing your code, while i still COMPLETELY disagree with the idea behind his mod I personally feel like a big warning in chat in all caps denying any form of support with that mod installed is really the most you can get away with with this community without people freaking out on you. I still hope you can talk with the author and get some sort of peaceful deal arranged. Just my two cents though.

No, he is modifying Reika's code at runtime

 

[rhn]

But also... Personally I do not use converters in my builds. I have ic2 machines running off ic2 nuke power. I have RF machines running off a big reactor. So I *get* the hard mode play style. I used to have MJ machines running off oil. Nonetheless. If a player wants an RF only pack. Why the hell not? Someone like @rhn could do more with a RF integrated RoC machine than I ever could with RoC alone.

What the.. Why did I have to get dragged into this?

You actually got me all wrong. I really don't like the RF API and personally would choose to use any other more complex and challenging power systems were they readily available. Sadly they are not as everyone seems to jump on this "faceroll powersystem"... This is the reason why I still like IC2/GT(just wish it was in a more finished state) etc.

The reason I am not playing RoC more is not its power system(that is a great plus infact), but more its lack of configs and customizability that would allow it to coexist better with other mods. Like a balanced GT/RoC pack is just not going to happen sadly. But this is a whole other debate.


Back on the main subject I have to put my vote in Reikas favour. This mod IMO does nothing but undermining the quality and integrity of RoC. It would be like making a mod for TC that bypasses all research, Infusion and alchemical crafting and just makes everything immediately available as shaped recipes. (EDIT: Just read up on previous posts as saw Reika use the very same analogy lol ) You could argue that the person who makes the mod and those who choose to use it are simply fools who are ruining the experience for them selves, and they should be allowed to do so. But if I had put a lot of work into something creative and there was a risk of a lot of people bastardizing it, then I would probably also try and prevent it.

 

[RavynousHunter]

If he were doing it thru the API or something, that'd be one thing, but ASMing into another person's mod for the purpose of fundamentally altering its functionality is...kinda messed up, if you ask me. Especially if you don't even bother to ask if its cool or not; kinda disrespectful, at best. I mean, if I modified my car and someone took the nos system, hacked it up, and jury-rigged a bit in that allowed it to run on, say, vegetable oil, then you'd kinda be within your rights to be more than a little pissed off, as well as asking that they stop. Especially if you gave your mod specs to others, and he tacked that on to your blueprints. I mean, this is a personal thing between them, but...it is kinda scummy, from my point of view.

 

[RedBoss]

The only evidence I've found of this mod is some screen caps on Imgur

 

[boondockArtist]

So yeah. RotaryFlux is a disaster waiting to happen, whether it was the mod maker's intention or not, as others have said. Again, like others who said it, I'd be kinda pissed if my work was tampered with negatively in subjective terms. I don't even consider this RCF an add-on, I'd consider it a poorly thought out fork. Add-ons are supposed to expand upon or sometimes balance things from the main mod. (Though, the balancing thing doesn't really apply so much for minecraft compared to say a fallout add-on mod <.<). I mean, look at all the Thaumcraft add-ons that change up TC in positive, lore friendly, and fun ways, they don't simply exist to enable you to craft the creative Thaumicon (I'm sure I spelled it wrong even after all this time)

 

[AlexDeathwind]

How bout making it so that if RoC detects direct RF connection, then the machines still run but at the slowest possible speeds/ efficiency. Kind of like in Blood Magic where it detects if you have a high regeneration buff and gives you nausea so you still have to blow through food. This way people who want to use it still can, but it would be so much better for them to learn your mod. I feel like this would pull the aggro off of you some (though I do think the mod so just never be released.

 

[Reika]

Has talking to the guy privately worked? Because we've got a whole brouhaha over an unreleased mod.

So far, no, he has not replied. But I am doing this poll regardless because I think it would be prudent to protect against some future copy of RotaryFlux.

How bout making it so that if RoC detects direct RF connection, then the machines still run but at the slowest possible speeds/ efficiency. Kind of like in Blood Magic where it detects if you have a high regeneration buff and gives you nausea so you still have to blow through food. This way people who want to use it still can, but it would be so much better for them to learn your mod. I feel like this would pull the aggro off of you some (though I do think the mod so just never be released.

That punishes the player; my solution just undoes what RotaryFlux does.

 

[Someone Else 37]

When I first saw the Reddit thread (from Reika's link on one of the other threads), my first thought was "Reika is going to have a cow when he sees this." And oh, hey...

I'd say try diplomacy first, try to get Wendian to not release the mod; if that doesn't work, feel free to break it somehow on your end. Crash if you have to, but just forcibly nerfing the RF->shaft power conversion rate into oblivion or just unloading your machines when RotaryFlux is installed (as you do with monetization) might be better for PR.

 

[SynfulChaot]

I'd say try diplomacy first, try to get Wendian to not release the mod; if that doesn't work, feel free to break it somehow on your end. Crash if you have to, but just forcibly nerfing the RF->shaft power conversion rate into oblivion or just unloading your machines when RotaryFlux is installed (as you do with monetization) might be better for PR.

Be careful on unloading machines, though. You don't want to accidentally cause damage to people's worlds by permanently removing machines players have created if they're foolish enough to install both. I hold that world damage is more severe than forced crashing.

 

[Reika]

When I first saw the Reddit thread (from Reika's link on one of the other threads), my first thought was "Reika is going to have a cow when he sees this." And oh, hey...

I'd say try diplomacy first, try to get Wendian to not release the mod; if that doesn't work, feel free to break it somehow on your end. Crash if you have to, but just forcibly nerfing the RF->shaft power conversion rate into oblivion or just unloading your machines when RotaryFlux is installed (as you do with monetization) might be better for PR.

Be careful on unloading machines, though. You don't want to accidentally cause damage to people's worlds by permanently removing machines players have created if they're foolish enough to install both. I hold that world damage is more severe than forced crashing.

The monetization code does not remove the machines, just disables their functionality, renders, and crafting. But I have an even better "transparent" solution.

 

[Wraithflay]

But I have an even better "transparent" solution.

Is it bad that I cackled a little on the inside as I read this? Almost a bit of Montgomery Burns being channeled there... for me anyway.

 

[CoolSquid]

I support an eventual takedown. If someone made a mod that disabled half of SquidUtils, I would have done the same.

What rights exactly? Copyright prevents others claiming your work as theirs.
This guy is not distributing RoC or claiming it as his own.
What actual right is @Reika claiming here?

All of the usual "though shalt not reverse engineer" bullcrap is added to licensed software with EULAs. And, in installing RoC (that one time, long ago when I did), there was no EULA. So copyright stands. But I'm not at all sure why @Reika is asserting I should not be permitted to open his .jar with a zip tool. Or view the .class files therein in a binary viewer. Or disassemble the bytecodes. None of these activities infringe @Reika's clear and manifest copyright claim.

This is nothing about the other "modder". This is about end users. @Reika appears to be claiming that end users who install RoC should be prevented from installing some other mod? Because its author opened the roc.jar file?

Where does this pervasive idea that because I am using your software, you get to control my mind, come from? Keep out my head. And out my mod collection. The other mods I choose to put in my pack are no concern of anyones.

As the creation of derivative works is the exclusive right of the owner, he can file takedown notices against such works.

 

[Reika]

As a meterstick of how some of the rest of the community is taking this...Someone emailed me a picture of a d**k......