Getting opinions on RotaryFlux and my responses

[GreenZombie]

@Reika

It is my opinion that you are creating a storm in a tea cup. To the kind of player who would install this kind of mod, interoperability of mods holds precedence over balance. Players who care about 'hard mode' play will not install it, or may install it but restrict its use to some obscure purpose otherwise impossible to achieve.

However, that is just my opinion. So, how about some science. i.e. collect some data. (Obsessed as you are with frequent version checks) you could easilly (technically) get the version check process to submit some (non personal information containing) metrics about the mods general environment and usage, that would provide potentially a far better picture of how your mods are being used in the wild than sampling forums or bug reports.

As it is, I can bypass most of RoC's progression by simply installing MFR or Thaumcraft or ... and use those machines for ore multiplication, mob grinding, automated mining and so on.

 

[Reika]

@Reika
So, how about some science. i.e. collect some data. (Obsessed as you are with frequent version checks) you could easilly (technically) get the version check process to submit some (non personal information containing) metrics about the mods general environment and usage, that would provide potentially a far better picture of how your mods are being used in the wild than sampling forums or bug reports.

Much as I want to do this, I could never get away with it. I actually inquired about it here about a year ago; the response was "the second you add this your mods get removed from my game." People could hardly tolerate my more recent suggestion of a bug reporting form. And it does not even stop there; remember Havvy's reaction to my on-login data syncing?

As it is, I can bypass most of RoC's progression by simply installing MFR or Thaumcraft or ... and use those machines for ore multiplication, mob grinding, automated mining and so on.

No, you cannot. Even infinite raw resources does not bypass RC's techtree.

 

[Ieldra]

@Reika:
IMO, you have every right to break this "native RF" capability from your side if you don't come to an understanding with the modder who makes RotaryFlux. RotaryFlux interferes with basic principles of RotaryCraft and strikes at the core of its identity, and you have, as a matter of course, the right to decide how the machines in your mod can and can't be used.

*Should* you do so, however? That's a different question. Personally, I wouldn't mind, but the question remains whether it's necessary. Chris Becke may have a point here.

On the other hand, you might think of being more willing to accept shortcuts through RoC's tech tree made possible through mod synergy in less critical areas. You know, that's what mod synergy does, everywhere, and in general it's an appealing feature. I am now playing with a mod that has the opposite of your design philosophy: Mekanism explicitly values compatibility (by the words of the mod author), even if it adversely affects balance, and as a result there are a few shortcuts in its ore processing chain, which lies as much at the core of its identity as its power system lies at the core of RoC's identity. One of these shortcuts is rather ridiculous, and I find myself not using it, while another one makes perfect sense in the light of an worldgen resource added by another mod. IMO, Minecraft is, in the end, a sandbox game where the player decides which kind of game they want to play. I would rather see a mod err on the side of too much freedom rather than too little. I also think that you've raised the barrier to power import too high.

Specifically, I would to see RoC/ReC resources to be interchangeable with other mods' resources of the same name and nature. That's of course because I value world consistency higher than balance, and I find it extremely jarring to see two mods having different incompatible kinds of hydrogen, tungsten, ethanol etc..

 

[ScottulusMaximus]

1. Big warning in chat that the mod can seriously break things and no support will be given.
2. Stop whining.

 

[GreenZombie]

No, you cannot. Even infinite raw resources does not bypass RC's techtree.

I can't bypass RoC's tech tree wrt accessing high tier RoC devices specifically. But I can bypass it in terms of the nett effect of the RoC device. i.e. the tangible side effects of any mod are to produce more resources (via ore multiplication, automated farming / material synthesis, mob spawning & killing) or provide the player with the equipment / tools to more efficiently kill the Wither - or boss mobs provided by other mods such as Twilight Forest or Thaumcraft.

 

[Bagman817]

I don't know why this is even an issue. RoC is Reika's mod. If another mod impacts his mod in a way he finds unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned he's well within his rights to to disable his own mod (assuming, as I'm lead to believe, that he can do so without actually crashing the game). As an extreme example, were I to write a mod called Bagcraft, and my planned progression was based around resource scarcity, I might take exception to having it in a pack with an ore doubling mechanic. I'm within my rights as a creator to disable Bagcraft if it recognizes TiCo, Thermal Expansion, etc.
In this case, the add-on in question directly and deliberately undermines the progression of Reika's mod. More to the point, the "add-on" adds nothing; it duplicates a function that already exists, it just makes it cheap. Certainly, Reika can (and, in my opinion, should) deny access.

 

[GreenZombie]

I don't know why this is even an issue. RoC is Reika's mod. If another mod impacts his mod in a way he finds unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned he's well within his rights to to disable his own mod (assuming, as I'm lead to believe, that he can do so without actually crashing the game). As an extreme example, were I to write a mod called Bagcraft, and my planned progression was based around resource scarcity, I might take exception to having it in a pack with an ore doubling mechanic. I'm within my rights as a creator to disable Bagcraft if it recognizes TiCo, Thermal Expansion, etc.
In this case, the add-on in question directly and deliberately undermines the progression of Reika's mod. More to the point, the "add-on" adds nothing; it duplicates a function that already exists, it just makes it cheap. Certainly, Reika can (and, in my opinion, should) deny access.

Rubbish. Thats unethical.

 

[McJty]

I'm a bit undecided on this. I can fully understands Reika's viewpoint and I do agree that this mod undermines the balance of RoC. Additionally it is unneeded as RotaryCraft already provides (properly balanced and tiered) mechanisms for converting to and from RF.

On the other hand I'm also of the opinion that people are free to play how they want. I mean, someone can just as well enable cheats, go to creative and spawn in the needed materials to craft the high-tier machines. If they do that they will also break the progression as they can go directly to a jet engine with that. So my viewpoint is: if people want to break progression they already can without installing any mods at all. But it breaks the fun and point of playing RotaryCraft in the first place.

This brings me to my personal conclusion:

1. I would personally not heavily enforce any block against this new mod. People who use it are just shooting themselves in their foot by removing a lot of fun from their game. Let them do it. People who play RotaryCraft properly will get most fun.
2. I would try to cooperate with someone to get the progression of RotaryCraft explained better. Perhaps try to find a youtuber who is willing to make a good tutorial/spotlight or someone who is willing to help maintain the wiki better. And then make that new source of documentation well known to everyone.
3. I'm not sure what the author of RotaryFlux currently thinks about the situation but I think that some diplomacy may still work. Also I don't know if it would be possible to at least make his machines fit a tad bit more into the RotaryCraft progression. But I must admit I haven't really looked into RotaryFlux and how it currently works. So not sure how possible that is.
4. If RotaryFlux indeed gets released then I would state strongly on your RoC forum that that mod breaks progression and that you don't recommend people using it if they don't want to spoil the fun.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[lenscas]

I would say try to talk to the mod author and try to come to an agreement as to what is and isn't allowed to happen with both mods(yours and his add-on).

if this fails I would sugest to give a warning in single and multiplayer.
In addition to that have it so that the server owner have to deal with an agreement of some sorts in the way mojang did it, If you go this route I would suggest in looking for a way that will not give you a thousand and one crash reports from people that didn't know that they had to switch a value in a config file or something like mojang did.

Another option would be to make the mod not work in multiplayer at all but still let it function in singleplayer together with a warning.

This way you try to make people that use it to know the consequences of said mod while still allowing people to play the way they want.

Granted I have never used one of your mods before as they don't are my thing so I may be underestimating the danger of this mod.

 

[Bagman817]

Rubbish. Thats unethical.

That's an accusation, not an argument. I submit that it is in no way unethical for a creator (of any work) to restrict access to his work, assuming he has not expressly waived that right.

 

[Ieldra]

I'm a bit undecided on this. I can fully understands Reika's viewpoint and I do agree that this mod undermines the balance of RoC. Additionally it is unneeded as RotaryCraft already provides (properly balanced and tiered) mechanisms for converting to and from RF.

That's not quite correct. RotaryFlux does significantly more than that: it removes the need for power conversion in the first place by making it possible to hook up RoC machines directly to your RF network. Regardless of whether you think RoCs power conversion is balanced (which at the moment, I think it's not), RotaryFlux intrudes on a core aspect of RotaryCraft. It's like making a mod that lets GregTech machines be powered directly through RF by overriding the way these machines receive power. I actually think that letting it stand as it is may set a bad precedence for mods interfering with core aspects of other mods.

 

[GreenZombie]

That's an accusation, not an argument. I submit that it is in no way unethical for a creator (of any work) to restrict access to his work, assuming he has not expressly waived that right.

Ok. To ignore the ethics for a moment, DRM (and this proposal is DRM) is always taken badly by this community. @Reika having been the target of it before.

So theres that.

Next, there is the spirit of the modding community :- mods change the game. more mods change it more. Each mod perturbs the balance expectations of the other mods and players will add mods for this very purpose.

So theres that.

Then there are the ethics of it. There are a number of cases where an "Artist" relinquishes control over a work - they maintain copyright, but for most other purposes, having sold a work, cannot control how the content is used. If I buy a painting I cannot duplicate it and sell the duplicates. But I can choose to hang it upside down in my company lobby, or tear it up and hang the ribbons If I so desire.

Now, modders do not sell their mods - and the recent Steam fracas has proven that, for now, the larger gaming community do not approve of that idea at all. None the less they release their mods into a public space (and must conform to the license agreements of the products they mod) and thus, while they retain copyright, they have no moral, ethical or legal right to engage in 'behaviour control' over how their mods are used.

 

[McJty]

That's not quite correct. RotaryFlux does significantly more than that: it removes the need for power conversion in the first place by making it possible to hook up RoC machines directly to your RF network. Regardless of whether you think RoCs power conversion is balanced (which at the moment, I think it's not), RotaryFlux intrudes on a core aspect of RotaryCraft. It's like making a mod that lets GregTech machines be powered directly through RF by overriding the way these machines receive power. I actually think that letting it stand as it is may set a bad precedence for mods interfering with core aspects of other mods.

Hmm. Isn't that what I said? I am missing the difference between what you are saying and what I said.

 

[Mattasdqwe]

Maybe if RotaryFlux is installed you could enable a dirt to diamonds recipe. It would probably be well received by installers of RotaryFlux.

 

[rouge_bare]

My first thought when I saw this is that this takes the Rotary right out of Rotarycraft. To be frank, alot of the toys in Rotarycraft have alternatives, (even the x5 ore multiplier can be covered by another mod). The main thing Rotarycraft (and by extension ReactorCraft and Eletricraft) offer is the power system. The entire mod is both based on and reliant upon the torque x speed mechanics. I don't see how simply plugging in (for the sake of example, as it's likely the biggest cadidate) an extractor to RF can be relaibly emulated with just a single "power". I don't see a balanced way of deciding the speed and torque, as machines often need a base torque, above which more torque is useless, but this is on a machine by machine basis. The best examples here are the extractor itself (which works best when it is alternated between it's power levels) and things like the Friction Heater (which is best when Torque and Speed are roughly equal.) In short, what works for one machine, is not likely to work for all.

On the other side, it would make the toys of Rotarycraft much more accessible, but when the vast majority have comparable alternatives, I don't feel this is worth gutting the core aspect of Rotarycraft, it's power system.

EDIT: as to the poll, none of the options perfectly fit my opinions, I've gone with the closest fit.

 

[Ieldra]

Hmm. Isn't that what I said? I am missing the difference between what you are saying and what I said.

It's not the same. It's the difference between providing machines that convert power (arguably unneeded, because they already exist) and changing RoC's machines to accept RF directly as if they were part of an RF-based tech mod (a functionality that does not exist). A mod that provides easier-to-build alternatives to RoC's magnetostatic engines might have a debatable virtue from Reika's point of view, but they wouldn't necessarily intrude into Reika's domain. From the description, RotaryFlux does more than that.

 

[McJty]

It's not the same. It's the difference between providing machines that convert power (arguably unneeded, because they already exist) and changing RoC's machines to accept RF directly as if they were part of an RF-based tech mod (a functionality that does not exist). A mod that provides easier-to-build alternatives to RoC's magnetostatic engines might have a debatable virtue from Reika's point of view, but they wouldn't necessarily intrude into Reika's domain. From the description, RotaryFlux does more than that.

Oh. I didn't know it goes that far into changing how RoC machines work. I thought it was just another convertor. In that case I think Reika has every right to be against this mod.

 

[Ieldra]

Oh. I didn't know it goes that far into changing how RoC machines work. I thought it was just another convertor. In that case I think Reika has every right to be against this mod.

The OP clarifies: "[RotaryFlux] makes all of RotaryCraft fully RF-native. This is not a new converter engine, this is direct conduit-to-machine connections"

 

[Hyperme]

Considering RotaryCraft has actual game design executed in a competent manner, RotaryFlux is dumb. If you can't convince vvendian that destroying your mod's balance is clearly a bad idea, I think making RotaryFlux non-functional is okay. You've claimed doing so is simple, without breaking other things, so it's a fair solution. (Also he gets to bug hunt for a bug that doesn't exist.)

 

[Reika]

@Reika:
IMO, you have every right to break this "native RF" capability from your side if you don't come to an understanding with the modder who makes RotaryFlux. RotaryFlux interferes with basic principles of RotaryCraft and strikes at the core of its identity, and you have, as a matter of course, the right to decide how the machines in your mod can and can't be used.

*Should* you do so, however? That's a different question. Personally, I wouldn't mind, but the question remains whether it's necessary. Chris Becke may have a point here.

Even if I manage to diplomatically stop RotaryFlux, I am starting to think it would be prudent to protect against a possible future duplicate. The nice thing is the same code can apply to all of them, and like before can work flawlessly and without crashing the game or causing side effects. (That said, a crash in case of class inconsistency is also likely prudent.)

On the other hand, you might think of being more willing to accept shortcuts through RoC's tech tree made possible through mod synergy in less critical areas.

That already exists for several things.

I also think that you've raised the barrier to power import too high.

The tiering for the magnetostatics far more severely nerfs the from-RF conversion than the ratio does.

Specifically, I would to see RoC/ReC resources to be interchangeable with other mods' resources of the same name and nature. That's of course because I value world consistency higher than balance, and I find it extremely jarring to see two mods having different incompatible kinds of hydrogen, tungsten, ethanol etc..

You realize that interchangeability on RC tungsten with the ore, or bedrock/bedrockium, or tritium, or so on, will again cause severe balance problems? Not as severe as RotaryFlux, mind you, but severe nonetheless?