Getting opinions on RotaryFlux and my responses

[Reika]

OK, for those unaware, a user named "wendian" has recently made a mod called "RotaryFlux", which makes all of RotaryCraft fully RF-native. This is not a new converter engine, this is direct conduit-to-machine connections. I have spoken out against this, and have asked the author not to release it, and have been somewhat strongly criticized for doing so. I can imagine that were I to break it from my code, the response will be even more hostile.

So to get people's opinions, here is a poll, divided into two sections. You get two votes; please only vote once per section. The first section concerns the merits of RotaryFlux itself and whether it is a good idea, and the second concerns what rights I have regarding it.

Here is my position:

Problems:

• For those unfamiliar, RotaryCraft is very tightly gated and much of that is via the power system; being able to use RF directly negates all of that. This also means that all of the very powerful endgame RotaryCraft content will be easily accessible, and judging from the screenshots, about as hard to get as midtier Thermal Expansion.
• RotaryCraft is centered around problem-solving with the powertrains. This is core to its appeal, and is something totally nullified by making the mod RF compatible.
• Much of the reason for RC's gating is the very powerful endgame it offers, and taking that away makes the mod something of a griefer's dream; several machines and tools can and have been used in the past to totally wipe out servers, and my "what not to do" contains one such example. Point is, if this mod takes off, that will become a common occurrence.
• Exploit: This mod adds a massive 680000x power feedback exploit because it wildly differs from the conversion ratio built into RotaryCraft.
• Design: RotaryCraft's power system is core to its identity. Removing that for the sake of trivial convenience is akin to removing all of ThaumCraft's research, and is very, very unkind to the effort the developer has put into their mod.
  
• Redundancy: RotaryCraft already has RF support, and though it is not simple plug and play, you can use RF to run RotaryCraft machines.
• The fact he says it is configurable is meaningless. Not only does it have to match the magnetostatic's conversion ratio to avoid severe exploits, but consider this: Unlike RF, which is technically energy, RotaryCraft's power system is actual power, i.e. unit over time. This means that there is no such concept as "watts per RF", only "watts per RF/t". Because, however, the RF power system has no concept of voltage or current, this means that the only way this could be implemented is a "any RF more than [some threshold] makes [some amount] of shaft power". It is useless if it cannot power the popular machines, so it will be always configured to do that. Most of those machines are fairly high-tier, meaning it will also by proxy be configured to power just about everything else, making it effectively infinite shaft power from RF.

FAQ:

"Why are you telling people how to play? Isn't it up to the player what mods they want?"
In essence yes, but there is a major caveat. This mod is set up in such a way it both utterly unbalances RotaryCraft and if popular will destroy its reputation and its appeal. That means it will actively cause me major and potentially lasting problems. Also, does the design vision I have for RotaryCraft not count for something?

Also, most people are not aware of the kind of damage that doing this to RotaryCraft will cause, and as a result giving them the freedom to do this is in fact doing them a major disservice.


"Isn't this the point of having an API, though? Why is this unexpected?"
This mod is not done through the API. The API adds functionality for interfacing hooks, adding recipes, using shaft power, and similar. This mod is done through deep edits like base class edits or ASM; it neither benefits from nor needs my API.

"Don't you already have RF conversion? How is this any different?"
The RF conversion built into RotaryCraft is tiered and balanced against the mod. Contrast that with RotaryFlux, which just adds direct RF compatibility with no regard to RC's internal balancing.


"Isn't it unfair to ask a mod dev to stop working on something they put time into?"
To some degree, yes, but realize this: I spent ten times as much time designing my power system, and a hundred times as much ensuring my mods were balanced. Is my time worth so much less that a few days of his outweighs weeks to months of mine?

 

[trajing]

Time for me to chip in:
For those that say (well, this needed to be said anyway, so even if nobody says this) Reika has no right to stop someone from doing this, you are wrong. Reika has a right to do this, according to law. You may be thinking of ethics, which people disagree on (you can see this if you just take a quick look at the trolley problem or the numerous variants made in the political discussion thread) and isn't actually determined by law. As I've put it in private, and maybe even in public (although it was in relation to other issues), "While I may disagree with what they do to the point of hatred, it is entirely within their rights to do so." No matter what I think on the subject, it is within the rights of the modder to restrict addons/restrict modpack permissions/some other things that are definitely there but I can't think of ATM.
But then again, maybe that's just my morals.

 

[psp]

It appears to me that the guy doesn't want to intentionally destroy RoC's balance, it just does.
I'm more or less neutral because I in no way see this becoming popular.

@SynfulChaot
Said it best
"So let them install it and then wonder why everything is broken and why people have late-game stuff immediately. Seriously. This is pure entertainment just waiting to happen. Plus it'll finally drive through to some that your tiering and progression really is important to retain."
I mean, really, it's going to be a train wreck, and a funny one at that, but I do understand and agree with your points on stopping this before it goes any further.

I would like to see more on what @Watchful11 has to say. Some interesting points where said, but I feel like Watchfull11's argument is flawed.
"The point I made a few days ago that seemed to go over well was that mod authors should make content people want, rather than making content they want and then trying to convince people to use it." This seems odd. Why make a mod if you don't want to play it? Kinda defeating the point off making a mod.

Fixed some grammar.

 

[Reika]

It appears to me that the guy doesn't want to intentionally destroy RoC's balance, it just does.

This was my interpretation as well.

I'm more or less neutral because I in no way see this becoming popular.

I do - and Watchful seems to agree - which is why I am so concerned.

@SynfulChaot
Said it best
"So let them install it and then wonder why everything is broken and why people have late-game stuff immediately. Seriously. This is pure entertainment just waiting to happen. Plus it'll finally drive through to some that your tiering and progression really is important to retain."
I mean, really, it's going to be a train wreck, and a funny on at that, but I do understand and agree with your points on stopping this before it goes any further.

Yes, but like I said to Synful, I fear, like happened with servers MTing the mod then blaming me, it will end up negatively impacting my and the mod's reputation.

 

[psp]

I'm more or less neutral because I in no way see this becoming popular.

I do - and Watchful seems to agree - which is why I am so concerned.

I guess I have a tad bit to much faith in humanity.

 

[Kotaro]

See, I feel like mods extend beyond just the blocks and machines that it adds. Mechanics are just as important, and circumventing them destroys the spirit of the mod.

This mod negates an entire part of the mod, whether intentional or not I cannot say. I guess the main issue that I have with it is that it makes the machines go near if not top tier speed. I noticed the grinder was at the fastest it could be, or at least <1 sec. If it were more balanced, maybe. But then again, magnetostatics already covers the RF conversion.

Since this is directly towards your mod, you're within every right to stop this from actually working without breaking the very specific mod. For example, if machine detects direct RF input, it doesn't work and/or explodes.

That being said, the barrier for getting into your mod is obviously too high for some people, but they want access to the tools. Maybe something like a tutorial that shows you how the basic machines and engines work would be helpful? You know, something like Fisher Price: My First Gas Turbine (recommended ages 4 and up).

 

[SynfulChaot]

Time for me to chip in:
For those that say (well, this needed to be said anyway, so even if nobody says this) Reika has no right to stop someone from doing this, you are wrong. Reika has a right to do this, according to law. You may be thinking of ethics, which people disagree on (you can see this if you just take a quick look at the trolley problem or the numerous variants made in the political discussion thread) and isn't actually determined by law. As I've put it in private, and maybe even in public (although it was in relation to other issues), "While I may disagree with what they do to the point of hatred, it is entirely within their rights to do so." No matter what I think on the subject, it is within the rights of the modder to restrict addons/restrict modpack permissions/some other things that are definitely there but I can't think of ATM.
But then again, maybe that's just my morals.

My own feelings are ... more complicated on it.

If addons don't do base edits to Reika's code then I don't see any solid reasoning for barring such a mod in any way, shape, or form. Yes, even if the design of said mod can influence the mod in an ill way. There's a long history of such ill-thought-out addon mods for various mods, though it might be seen as an insult to the authors of them if I start listing said mods here as example. In those cases the most one should really be able to do is ask politely.

If they do, though, then I think that Reika has the right to stop someone as at that point they're openly subverting the mod in such a way that could become harmful in more than just design.

Yes, but like I said to Synful, I fear, like happened with servers MTing the mod then blaming me, it will end up negatively impacting my and the mod's reputation.

And like I always tend to respond, I don't think you need to worry too much about it. There will always be the crazies that blame you for addons and tweaks, but anyone in this community with a brain will tell them off.

 

[Reika]

That being said, the barrier for getting into your mod is obviously too high for some people, but they want access to the tools. Maybe something like a tutorial that shows you how the basic machines and engines work would be helpful?

I am in full agreement with this and am fully in support of more guidance. The problem is, too few spotlighters are working on RC, and too few people look at the wiki.

You know, something like Fisher Price: My First Gas Turbine (recommended ages 4 and up).

If addons don't do base edits to Reika's code then I don't see any solid reasoning for barring such a mod in any way, shape, or form. Yes, even if the design of said mod can influence the mod in an ill way. There's a long history of such ill-thought-out addon mods for various mods, though it might be seen as an insult to the authors of them if I start listing said mods here as example. In those cases the most one should really be able to do is ask politely.

If they do, though, then I think that Reika has the right to stop someone as at that point they're openly subverting the mod in such a way that could become harmful in more than just design.

With the fact in mind that RotaryFlux is basically impossible short of base edits, would you then agree my stopping it from working is justified? Like before, crashing the game is not necessary.

 

[Plasmasnake]

I voted no in both sections.

Nobody has the right to make a mod that changes the dynamic so drastically to any mod, regardless if it was intentional or not. Reika, I think you are well within your rights and well within ethics to go to lengths to either remove RotaryFlux capability to ship RoC power like standard RF or demand heavy changes to how it should operate. Given from past experiences and from what I've seen, it may also prevent a lot of future drama with people who either purposefully or unintentionally break your mod then complain about it. I would have never suggested such a thing if I hadn't seen it previously with my own eyes.

I personally would get extremely offended if somebody basically made a mod that makes mine infinitely easier and ruins my balance/design without asking permission. I think the main problem here is the lack of consideration. RotaryFlux's creator didn't consider how well balanced your mod is already. He didn't consider working with the very person who makes the mod that he will interfere with. He didn't consider that this would be an issue in the first place. Sure, I'd argue that this wasn't a vicious attempt to break RoC intentionally, but good intentions don't make the act right.

Not to mention... how is it even fun? Seriously, I'd think it would be utterly stupid when people start making 1 tick per operation extractors driven by solar panels. Boring Machines powered by coal they mine via a furnace generator. You'd undo the charm of the mod itself and it would then become pointless to even have the torque + speed power system. The entire 'rotary' part gone and pretty much all of the progression void.

 

[SynfulChaot]

With the fact in mind that RotaryFlux is basically impossible short of base edits, would you then agree my stopping it from working is justified? Like before, crashing the game is not necessary.

You stated that your API opens up the ability to use and generate shaft power. With the right ingenuity one could utilize that ability to turn RF into shaft power on-the-fly without requiring base edits. If they utilized that then I don't think forcing incompatibility is a good thing as then it'll lower the amount of people willing to use your API. After all, who wants to use an API that the creator of will blacklist you if they disagree with you?

That being said, if it *is* using base edits then it could have deleterious and unintentional side effects on your mod and I do think you'd be in the right if you blocked it internally. I do hope it won't come to that, though, as it's bad PR even if you are in the right.

 

[Wraithflay]

I think I've always been odd in regards to things like this. I like a mod of particular type, which has its own self-contained progression, to remain within that progression. I don't try to use RF to convert to Mana to convert to Aspects and so on and so forth. I work within the mod that introduced those concepts from the ground up, as it provides me a better understanding not only of how the mod itself functions, but also in how to utilize the tools that mod provides to improve output, progression, or whatever else might be relevant to it. While I understand that some people just want to get the product without the work, having invested heavily into a particular mod, I see that as a shortsighted activity in and of itself in that it reduces your overall interest in your own world. Why learn a new mod, invest time in it, and explore it, if you can just circumvent its primary mechanics to get the end result, be it tools, machines, or what have you? You're just shortening the lifespan of your world in doing so, or at least that's how I've always seen it.

Ultimately, people will play how they want to play. Generation E(ntitlement) will always want things NOW, regardless of the fact that they're damaging their own enjoyment of the game in doing so. In general, I am always going to be inclined to side with Reika on matters like these because I am particularly protective of creative rights, and I find this one no different. While I don't know that I find it worth the time and trouble to deal with finding these mods and shutting them down, I've also spent far too much time working customer service over the years and as a result have a significant amount of general apathy and/or enmity for humanity at large. Dragons of Earth unite! /animebullshit

 

[Kotaro]

You stated that your API opens up the ability to use and generate shaft power. With the right ingenuity one could utilize that ability to turn RF into shaft power on-the-fly without requiring base edits. If they utilized that then I don't think forcing incompatibility is a good thing as then it'll lower the amount of people willing to use your API. After all, who wants to use an API that the creator of will blacklist you if they disagree with you?

Thing is, it's bypassing a huge amount of work.

Take Thaumcraft for example; this would be the equivalent of giving you all the research and spawning a few nodes for you just by using a machine that takes some RF to run.

If a mod comes out that changes all RC machines to plug and play RF, you just end up with some really easy to access, potentially world destroying, overpowered blocks. In essence, the Boring machine becomes a boring machine.

 

[Reika]

You stated that your API opens up the ability to use and generate shaft power. With the right ingenuity one could utilize that ability to turn RF into shaft power on-the-fly without requiring base edits. If they utilized that then I don't think forcing incompatibility is a good thing as then it'll lower the amount of people willing to use your API. After all, who wants to use an API that the creator of will blacklist you if they disagree with you?

Doing that would still require making a machine of some sort, and thus require rather more "design effort". And yes, if it was bad enough for RotaryCraft and the developer could not be reasoned with, it could be blacklisted. That said, noone has objected to this in a long time (around June 2013), and the last time it was was someone saying "if you won't listen to the community and do as they say maybe you're not fit to be a mod developer". (Side note to tell you about the guy: This guy loved bragging about how much money he made from streaming, and about how he could buy anyone he wanted.)

That being said, if it *is* using base edits then it could have deleterious and unintentional side effects on your mod and I do think you'd be in the right if you blocked it internally. I do hope it won't come to that, though, as it's bad PR even if you are in the right.

Agreed, but fortunately, this thread is implying that such reaction will be fairly restricted to people who will criticize me no matter what.

 

[SynfulChaot]

Thing is, it's bypassing a huge amount of work.

Take Thaumcraft for example; this would be the equivalent of giving you all the research and spawning a few nodes for you just by using a machine that takes some RF to run.

If a mod comes out that changes all RC machines to plug and play RF, you just end up with some really easy to access, potentially world destroying, overpowered blocks.

Don't get me wrong. I understand fully well how it breaks RoC's progression, though I think your examples are a bit of a case of hyperbole. Thaum's gating and RoC's gating are distinctly different. This would be more akin to allowing you access to the best wands/staves/scepters from the get-go and allowing them to recharge from RF.

Doing that would still require making a machine of some sort, and thus require rather more "design effort". And yes, if it was bad enough for RotaryCraft and the developer could not be reasoned with, it could be blacklisted. That said, noone has objected to this in a long time (around June 2013), and the last time it was was someone saying "if you won't listen to the community and do as they say maybe you're not fit to be a mod developer". (Side note to tell you about the guy: This guy loved bragging about how much money he made from streaming, and about how he could buy anyone he wanted.)

You can always choose to blacklist, but just know that blacklisting access to your API will cause people to be wary of using it themselves for fear of you blacklisting them. I know that were I to dev a mod then I would avoid any APIs entirely in which the creator/maintainer of said API had a penchant or willingness to blacklist people that use them in ways they don't approve of.

Agreed, but fortunately, this thread is implying that such reaction will be fairly restricted to people who will criticize me no matter what.

This thread is not a good indicator of the overall community and there have been extremely few who have responded as of yet. To make that conclusion at this juncture is erroneously early.

 

[Wraithflay]

Another thought occurred to me while mulling over this. If the intent of the mod is to circumvent necessary but time consuming progression mechanics so as to get to the 'toys' as it were, I have to wonder... why in blazes did you install RotaryCraft to begin with? Reika's mods consistently show a very consistent theme: he assumes a certain level of competency within his player-base. If you need to ask how to install mods, RotaryCraft probably isn't for you. Why? You showed absolutely no initiative in your ability to solve a basic problem. You are on a computer with access to the internet, the collected knowledge of humanity stored in digital format, and you couldn't find the time or effort to look up how to install mods for Minecraft? If that's the case, you're going to struggle with every single step of progression within literally any of Reika's 'crunchy' mods.

You may be wondering why I thought of this. From a personal note, I am a non-traditional aged student at a technical vocation college. One of the very first things my instructors work to teach any of their students is initiative: if you can't solve a problem, yes, you can ask an instructor for help, but what they really want you to do is to use the tools you have to solve your problems. Look up videos on youtube, go through the help for the software online, poke around the tools, do whatever you need to do to figure out your problem, and if you STILL can't figure out... run it by the instructors. You'd be amazed at how hard this is to instill into people, young and old. Even for me it took some time before I really 'got' it and learned to deal with things on my own first, and as a result it's made me more than competent, it's made me exceptional at what I do, with the accolades and references to prove it.

So what's my point? Well, how does this RF to RoC mod add anything creatively to the space? I honestly don't see how it's adding anything, truly. Further, you'll recall I mentioned that I am very protective of creative rights. 'But you're not allowing him creativity in making his mod use RF to power RoC machines!' you cry! Ah, that's where we come upon freedom in a general level. You have the freedom to do or say as you please, but will reap the consequences of such should you break any rules. Similarly you can make a mod do whatever you like, but if you break the rules, you had better expect you're going to get punished for doing so. Reika's always been very clear in communicating how important the progression of his mods is, and that he's extremely unlikely to allow any kind of change to that progression. Consequently, should you choose to make a mod that breaks those rules, Reika's well within his rights to tell you to take it down, as you're now interacting with his creative property, not within your own creative work.

Buuuut I'm probably just preaching to the choir here, aren't I? Meh, apparently I'm feeling talkative tonight. Why are you even still reading this, I'm just rambling, shoo!

 

[zemerick]

Unfortunately, I see this as a no win situation for you Reika. Either way you go, WILL piss some people off. The minecraft modding community is just notoriously toxic.

Now, for my opinion:

The modder has the right to make the mod, even if it completely destroys yours, but shouldn't make it public in such a case.

You have the right to completely block/remove his mod, but really shouldn't. Even though it completely changes a mod you have worked hard on, you shouldn't try to completely remove his mod. ( That's even worse than someone changing the core of a mod, as he's doing to you. )

In an ideal world, he would admit that this mod should not be released, and that would be the end of it. You wouldn't need to do anything, and this whole thing would vanish.

Too bad this world is far from ideal.

My personal recommendation is to see if there's a non-destructive way you can minimize the effects, though that may be entirely impossible, and will probably at least require you to have access to the mod first.

Honestly though, I really don't care too much. As you can probably guess, as a frequent user of your mods, I have no need or interest for this mod.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Simple solution:

"I take no responsibility for that mod or its effects on your game. If that mod is installed alongside mine, you will receive no tech support, I will not listen to any bug reports you have, I will not accept any complaints or criticism, and in general will tell you to uninstall his mod before coming to me with a complaint."

Make it crystal clear that you disapprove of his methods and his goal, and refuse to support anything to do with it.

This isn't a war you can win. You can't stop someone from making a mod. You can refuse to support it. This is no different from any of the various x-ray mods out there. There's no way you can realistically ban it, no matter how badly it breaks the game. You can, however, decline to support anyone who uses it. You can also tweak the base classes he edits every time you update to force him to have to update every time you do. Don't make the mod explicitly incompatible, just... 'oh, and I tweaked this part a bit as well'. Every single time. Can you stop him? No. But you can make it inconvenient enough to make him give up.

 

[Reika]

There's no way you can realistically ban it, no matter how badly it breaks the game. You can, however, decline to support anyone who uses it. You can also tweak the base classes he edits every time you update to force him to have to update every time you do. Don't make the mod explicitly incompatible, just... 'oh, and I tweaked this part a bit as well'. Every single time. Can you stop him? No. But you can make it inconvenient enough to make him give up.

I can trivially undo the effects he does codewise, making his mod simply not work (as in has no effect). This breaks nothing else. Is that really any different from your suggestion of just moving the classes around (which will cause ClassFormatError and VerifyError crashes, making my solution better because it does not cause a crash)?

 

[eric167]

considering that the sole purpose of this mod is to negate the entire power system of RoC, and that this mod only affects RoC, Reika is well within his rights to demand changes, totally deny support to anyone using this abomination, or even outright break compatibility with it. I really don't care if this is developed for single-player use by its dev, but it shouldn't become a general thing.

from looking through that reddit thread, I say go ahead and break it.

 

[Reika]

considering that the sole purpose of this mod is to negate the entire power system of RoC, and that this mod only affects RoC, Reika is well within his rights to demand changes, totally deny support to anyone using this abomination, or even outright break compatibility with it. I really don't care if this is developed for single-player use by its dev, but it shouldn't become a general thing.

from looking through that reddit thread, I say go ahead and break it.

If it were singleplayer only, I would have no problem with this, just like I do not forbid custom builds. I care when SMP and packs get involved because then reputations get affected.