Discussion on Mod design/progression management

[UberAffe]

I am working on a mod and am trying to decide how things should work. So I want to discuss the merits and faults of these styles.
Topics:

• Magic Blocks(MFR style, things just happen)
• Non-Magic Blocks(progressive engineering water wheel)
• Multi-Block
• Pre-Defined(static set of items/blocks/ etc)
• Free-Form(Tinkers/Ars Magika)
• progression by achievement(Can't make a Resonant machine until you have made Hardened stuff)
• limited NEI by progression(Thaumcraft, can't see recipes until you have researched them)
• progression by experimentation(Botania, if you want to get mana more efficiently try a new design)
• In-Game guide(Botania, Thaumcraft, Tinkers)
• Portability(Computer Craft, share code online)

This discussion is about these aspects not my mod but for the sake of a starting point here is a short description of my mod:

Spoiler: Light Drafter

Bold words are jargon specific to this mod.

You are a Prism. You absorb light from the world and convert it into base colors (Luxin) that you use to create objects in the world. These Drafted objects can range from weapons and armor to tools and blocks. The properties of the Draft are determined by its design (colors used, placement of colors, and overall shape).
Drafting increases your Light Endurance, allowing your body to hold more luxin and release more at one time without getting Light Sick (dizzy and unable to absorb light for a time).

Example:
Blue Luxin is the hardest, but is also brittle, and is one of the heavier Luxin.
Green Luxin is less hard than Blue, but is very flexible, similar weight to Blue.
A completely Blue sword will:
- average swing speed(due to weight)
- higher than average damage(due to edges being blue)
- lower than average durability(due to brittle core)

A Blue sword with a Green core will:
- the same swing speed
- same damage
- higher durability(due to the flexible core)
- easier to get Light Sick(because of multiple luxin types)

The most relevant topics for me right now are Pre-Defined vs Free-Form, the two progression styles, and portability.
I am currently treating this as Free-Form with progression by experimentation. There will be a basic items like the blue luxin sword that will be released with this but the interesting stuff happens when you start trying out your own designs (or other peoples designs) and get the Light Endurance to create larger and more complex drafts.

You are welcome to branch the conversation into any of the topics or even define your own topic to discuss but I would appreciate your opinion on the direction I am currently going.

 

[SomeoneInPart]

• "Magic" Blocks: They're a nice utility to have, but I would imagine an absolute pain to balance properly. Also rather breaks immersion (since stuff just happening is, sadly, not how our world works)
• Non-Magic Blocks: If you're going for immersion, this would probably be the way to go. Also is much nicer to look at, usually (I've seen some very nice water wheel designs)
• Multi-block: I don't know if it's just me, but I almost always shy away from mods that start off with Multi-Block structures, especially if the components are expensive (seems like a massive hassle when I often play in modpacks with 10 more expedient ways to get what I want done done). That being said, after early game, I really enjoy multi-blocks (feels like an accomplishment to make the TiC smeltery for the first time in a world)
• Pre-Defined: I honestly like this for utility mods (Extra Utils comes to mind), but I'm not sure how this would apply to mods with a Vanilla independent progression system
• Free-Form: Love this because I can dive right into it, hate it because often it means theirs no late-game satisfaction with staying with them (TiC being an exception to an extent); they just become another tool
• Progression: I think, to keep people occupied and content moving through your mod, this is the way to go, since every step is another tiny achievement. But...
• NEI Limited: I love Thaumcraft's items, but hate the 1.7.9 system: it was a chore every game, and I often left it to later game just so I could do all the scanning in one go (the 1.8.9 system is much improved though, since one can just sit and do the puzzles (which are enjoyable) without the hassle of smacking everything in the vicinity to release it's knowledge).
• Experimentation Progression: This, of all of them, is my personal favorite, as it allows the player to go at whatever pace they want, and best of all, constantly keep being able to revise and explore new things. To me, this expands the content drastically, even after all the tools are discovered or used.
• In-Guide game: I think with bigger/more complex mods, this is a must, as without it newer people will get lost quickly. However, I hate when mods just throw a book with all the knowledge in the UNIVERSE at you: feels overwhelming iof you're new to the mod as well. Ironically, this is where Thaumcraft shines, as it slowly allows the player to discover and progress without overwhelming them with everything.
• Portability: I like these features a lot, but imagine they would be EXTREMELY difficult to code for, so if you have the experience, by all means (I do not )

On a side note on the progression, I wanted to propose an idea for a guide that I would love to see come into the modding space (and may attempt to code in myself at some point); progression by discovery. Basically, whenever you pick up a block/item related to the mod, or do something related to the mod, it would add an entry to the guide about that event, maybe with a hint to guide the person to the next block. Psi KIND of does this, but I think with some clever manipulation of the systems in place for Achievements, this could be a really fun way to progress through a mod (especially if someone could figure out to hide, but not disable, the crafting recipes for certain blocks until the constituent parts are found or events occurred). That's just my (rather bloated) opinion on the matter, though.

Best of luck with your mod, no matter which path you choose: sounds like something that could really be fun to play with

 

[Azzanine]

Don't use player input to make decisions. Usually player input is way too variable to rely on.
However this discussion could be interesting but the only player you should listen to is yourself.

One thing I will say is that the perks a mod bring to the game are only 10% of the content.
For instance Mekanism does everything RotaryCraft does (exept for farming don't think Mek has a auto farm) but those mods can't be anymore different mechanic wise.
Ore doubling, quick smelting, farms and grinders should be treated as signals for succeeding in mastering the mods mechanics not the primary purpose.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[UberAffe]

• Experimentation Progression: This, of all of them, is my personal favorite, as it allows the player to go at whatever pace they want, and best of all, constantly keep being able to revise and explore new things. To me, this expands the content drastically, even after all the tools are discovered or used.

- For my mod the only real limit to progression is your level and creativity(or ability to find things). At least for how I currently have things setup it allows any player to create any of the known items as long as they meet the level requirements. But there are also billions of potential items that could be available, although most of them would be strange looking and not be very effective.

• In-Guide game: I think with bigger/more complex mods, this is a must, as without it newer people will get lost quickly. However, I hate when mods just throw a book with all the knowledge in the UNIVERSE at you: feels overwhelming iof you're new to the mod as well. Ironically, this is where Thaumcraft shines, as it slowly allows the player to discover and progress without overwhelming them with everything.

- For my case there will only a small set of predefined items all the others will be designs created by the users so any Guide I have would mostly be about the item design phase and what each bit means and a little bit about how the leveling system and creation of items works.

• Portability: I like these features a lot, but imagine they would be EXTREMELY difficult to code for, so if you have the experience, by all means (I do not )

- I already had to make a custom save structure for each design so all I need to do is make that save available for people to copy, probably in the configs folder.

Best of luck with your mod, no matter which path you choose: sounds like something that could really be fun to play with

Thanks, and it is actually coming along nicely so far. Actually another thing that I have come across and am trying to decide how to handle is HUD cluttering. I have 6 Luxin Bars that each player will have represent how much Luxin they are currently holding. But having 6 "mana" bar type things gets kind of excessive. Any ideas for a good way to display that information?

 

[SomeoneInPart]

Don't use player input to make decisions. Usually player input is way too variable to rely on.
However this discussion could be interesting but the only player you should listen to is yourself.

One thing I will say is that the perks a mod bring to the game are only 10% of the content.
For instance Mekanism does everything RotaryCraft does (exept for farming don't think Mek has a auto farm) but those mods can't be anymore different mechanic wise.
Ore doubling, quick smelting, farms and grinders should be treated as signals for succeeding in mastering the mods mechanics not the primary purpose.

I do agree; in the end it is your mod, so do what you envision it being, not what anyone says it should be. That being said, hearing opinions can spark ideas, if nothing else, so I don't really have a problem tossing ideas about; I'll be doing the same when I get a mod up and running

Thanks, and it is actually coming along nicely so far. Actually another thing that I have come across and am trying to decide how to handle is HUD cluttering. I have 6 Luxin Bars that each player will have represent how much Luxin they are currently holding. But having 6 "mana" bar type things gets kind of excessive. Any ideas for a good way to display that information?

If I'm reading your mod description correctly, what one could do is have only the bars of the Luxin that are not fully charged appear on the screen at a given time. Alternatively, one could have a hotkey bring up the bars, or alternatively alternatively, have a kind of "rainbow" bar that drains the color band of the bar when the color is consumed, isolating all the "mana" bars into one major bar. Here's a very basic representation of what I mean (not fancy, just a representation):

 

[UberAffe]

Ooh, I might try to implement a combination of. Would it be confusing if in the rainbow one it didn't show full colors? IE: one color is at 50% and all other are full, so that one color would take up 50% of the whole bar. If there were 2 colors that were at 50% and all others are full, the first color would take up 25% of the whole bar and the second color would take up the next 25% of the whole bar.

 

[SomeoneInPart]

I think it would be, as if one was using one and suddenly swapped to another an abrupt shift would occur twice (one initially, when the new luxin is used before the last luxin has regenerated fully, and again when the last luxin finally regenerates before the most recently used one has completely regenerated). that being said, it may work out if the regeneration rates relative to the maximums stored luxin are slow enough ()since the jarring shift would just bring attention to the fact that it has fully regenerated again)

 

[UberAffe]

In the vast majority of cases the player will be using the same set of luxin in the same ratios. But saying this just helped me realize a much better use of the bars. I have an endurance system that only allows a player to use a certain amount of combined luxin at a time and a certain amount of each luxin. The rainbow effect would in a single bar would display that perfectly and then they don't even need to see each individual bar.

 

[SomeoneInPart]

Sounds like that would work very well! I am curious though now: how will the leveling system be handled? Is it an exp system (in which case, how will the exp be represented) or something like psi, where completing certain tasks automatically levels you up to the next level (in which case how will that be handled)? This is just my curiosity though: if you're busy with the mod (or, like me, finals are coming O_O) focus on that.

 

[UberAffe]

Still got over a month until finals but for right now I just have a command that you can use to check your levels. As far as actually gaining levels I have it as each point of a luxin you use goes towards 1 point of exp for that luxin and 1 point to your overall. Exp needed per level is exponential but it is in such a way that you will always be able to use up all you have available of 1 luxin type type but you won't be able to use up all of your luxin until you are a very high level. You can see the code for the exp here, it starts at line 144.

 

[SomeoneInPart]

I see; looks like a very interesting levelling system (and as a bonus I learned about a snippet of code I had never come across before).

On a side note, a YouTube channel that I like to look at for a crash course on how to do ANYTHING game design is Extra Credits; we may not be making full blown games, but some of there lessons are still valuable (notably UI and progression systems). I'll link one of there videos below if you want to check them out (it will be the progression systems video: may not apply to you, but it's one of my personal favourites and may be something interesting nonetheless. Plus, it makes me a little proud that minecraft mods usually don't fall into the Skinner box format):

 

[UberAffe]

I've actually seen a few of those videos but I had forgotten about them.

Right now I'm thinking that the only "progression" I will have is leveling up to be able to use more luxin at a time. With how I have the item design it doesn't really make sense to limit the types of items or parts that can be used.

 

[Lethosos]

You can scatter some consumable Lumin Crystals into loot tables to add a bit of XP boost for a single color. One of the things I like about Reika's mods is the encouragement to go out and explore the land around you.

In fact, later on you could worldgen some small shrines with 1-3 "Pure Lumin Crystals" that is needed to break to "learn" a color. But this is an option--perhaps regulate it to secondary/tertiary colors?

Sent from my Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron using Tapatalk 2

 

[UberAffe]

I don't really like the idea of consumables for XP but I agree with giving players a reason to explore. I'll have to figure out a good challenge/puzzle to go along with it but I might put some of the item types like armor or throw-ables behind completion of a challenge.