Content/Cross-Mod Compatibility in Forge/A Forge Sister-Mod?

[trajing]

The reason being that it would (strongly) encourage mod authors - new and old alike - to include native support for addon mods, as they know that an even larger portion of the population, especially new players, are using it.

There are some mods that work on mystery - with Thaumcraft, if you go through wikis to figure out how to do things (well, apart from the basics), a lot of the fun in playing is removed.

 

[Type1Ninja]

There are some mods that work on mystery - with Thaumcraft, if you go through wikis to figure out how to do things (well, apart from the basics), a lot of the fun in playing is removed.

Never have I said that thaumcraft should be part of forge.
I wholeheartedly agree with you there - NEI, on the other hand, is based entirely on transparency. InvTweaks barely has anything to learn - I only use it to sort my chests.

... That said, I do occasionally give up and use the wiki on Thaumcraft.

 

[trajing]

Never have I said that thaumcraft should be part of forge.

Missing the point. Integration with NEI kills the design of some mods.

 

[Type1Ninja]

Missing the point. Integration with NEI kills the design of some mods.

Only if they don't disable it themselves. Thaumcraft, for example, does that, and any mod that doesn't do so hasn't seen the reality of NEI. I challenge you to find five modpacks on the FTB launcher without NEI.

 

[Padfoote]

Only if they don't disable it themselves. Thaumcraft, for example, does that, and any mod that doesn't do so hasn't seen the reality of NEI. I challenge you to find five modpacks on the FTB launcher without NEI.

Thaumcraft doesn't disable it. If it isn't in a standard crafting table or has explicit support written for NEI, it isn't shown.
I play without NEI at times. It isn't that big of a deal to not have it standard.

 

[Type1Ninja]

Thaumcraft doesn't disable it. If it isn't in a standard crafting table or has explicit support written for NEI, it isn't shown.
I play without NEI at times. It isn't that big of a deal to not have it standard.

Regardless of how it happens, you can't NEI the recipes in Thaumcraft. I'm also *fairly* certain that they can be disabled while coding a mod. I can't remember, though.
As for playing with/without NEI, I'm not saying it's bad to play without it; I'm saying it's reasonable to put it in a "Forge Extras" mod on the Forge installer.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

EDIT: Clearly, everyone disagrees with me. I suppose my idea is too communist to work.

Your ideas getting shot down has nothing to do with communism.

People disagreed with them because they are either impractical, involve forcing gameplay mechanics on other mods or both.

 

[Type1Ninja]

Your ideas getting shot down has nothing to do with communism.

Yes it does. Communism is (for our purposes) when stuff is really centralized, i.e. when all industry is handled by the government.
Here, 'communism' is when some mods that it is reasonable for all mods to have specific compatibility for are packaged with the thing every mod requires.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Define it as that if you want, either way you're intentionally dropping something provocative in attempt to coerce a more favourable response to your post. You're really not doing yourself any favours keeping that red text at the top of your thread.

 

[FyberOptic]

I think the underlying point is that modpacks basically already do everything you've described. They combine certain mods, they set certain trends, other mods tend to want to be compatible with what's in those packs to make it easier for pack makers and players, and the community as a whole tends to work fairly well together these days.

If there are mods which don't then nothing proposed here would really change that.

 

[Type1Ninja]

You're really not doing yourself any favours keeping that red text at the top of your thread.

I'll add something to it to make it better.

If there are mods which don't then nothing proposed here would really change that.

That's why it's marked "Discussion," not "This needs to happen right now or I'm never playing MC again."
It's something I thought was a good idea, and I wanted to see what other people thought. I hadn't seen any other threads with the idea that this is, as I haven't browsed the archives of the forum looking for clones of my post just to be sure.
I realize that modpacks make this easier for lots of players, and that pack makers also have tools available to them - I know that and I appreciate it and I love it. However, as humans, we always have the capability to improve our position and that of others. Telling other people about stuff we want or would have liked to have in the past is one of those ways.

If you really feel that angry at me for having and defending my idea, I'll just delete the thread and never post any new ideas here. -_-

 

[FyberOptic]

If you really feel that angry at me for having and defending my idea, I'll just delete the thread and never post any new ideas here. -_-

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not angry with you. Perhaps the robotic monotone of internet forums gave the perception of a different attitude than I meant to portray. My opinion may be contrary to yours but you're certainly welcome to discuss it nonetheless.

 

[Linkero]

@OP: How about you take a small step back and do a small bit of a rethink. I agree that there would be some great things to integrate into forge, but why do it?

Ores. It would be awesome to have the support and gen from forge, BUT think of this......you do that and you're left with 1 type of copper. Just 1 to look at. Not 5 different textured ores, but just 1. Wouldn't it get a bit bland after a while? While we can get some spectacular views above ground, still need some underground! With most mods using the oredict, all it comes down to is just the views associated with the mods. Besides, what would all the texture artists do if forge handles the ores? It's not a matter of it being a bad idea, but you'll see why most will disagree

Tools. I love TiCo, and I love how there is becoming more support with it. Unfortunately, the player base is pretty diverse. Some find it daunting to figure out tinkers. Alas, if it gets integrated into forge, tinkers will go out of business. Again, you'll find why most will disagree with it.

Optimizations. Excellent idea, but as mentioned before me, every system acts differently.

Duel-weilded weapons would be cool thing, but there's mods that do that already. Again, more modders out of business :/

Nei, hell....I don't live without it. But, there's a lot of clutter it adds to the screen. Not all players like that, and again, putting it into forge makes more modders obsolete.


See, when it all comes down to it, your left with a few basic facts. First, all you'll be doing is turning forge into a mod pack itself. Second, there will be a lot of folks not able to revolutionize in their own ways. Lastly, not everything fits for every player. So it's not a case of communism, it's a case of freedom! It's a case of variety! It's a case of a keeping forge doing what it does best! We all love the idea's, even if most won't admit it, but it's just a lot of creativity that will end up lost


Qucik edit: Electricity, since I seen it mentioned. That one would be great, but it comes down to difficulty. RF is pretty easy. EU is a step up, and RotaryCraft is pretty banging on it. Some like it easy, some like it difficult. Making it all universal would disrupt the balance on existing mods which are balanced in their own way.

 

[Type1Ninja]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not angry with you. Perhaps the robotic monotone of internet forums gave the perception of a different attitude than I meant to portray. My opinion may be contrary to yours but you're certainly welcome to discuss it nonetheless.

Thanks for clearing that up. The internet is a weird place, and I get fired up easily.

@OP: How about you take a small step back and do a small bit of a rethink. I agree that there would be some great things to integrate into forge, but why do it?

Ores. It would be awesome to have the support and gen from forge, BUT think of this......you do that and you're left with 1 type of copper. Just 1 to look at. Not 5 different textured ores, but just 1. Wouldn't it get a bit bland after a while? While we can get some spectacular views above ground, still need some underground! With most mods using the oredict, all it comes down to is just the views associated with the mods. Besides, what would all the texture artists do if forge handles the ores? It's not a matter of it being a bad idea, but you'll see why most will disagree

Tools. I love TiCo, and I love how there is becoming more support with it. Unfortunately, the player base is pretty diverse. Some find it daunting to figure out tinkers. Alas, if it gets integrated into forge, tinkers will go out of business. Again, you'll find why most will disagree with it.

Optimizations. Excellent idea, but as mentioned before me, every system acts differently.

Duel-weilded weapons would be cool thing, but there's mods that do that already. Again, more modders out of business :/

Nei, hell....I don't live without it. But, there's a lot of clutter it adds to the screen. Not all players like that, and again, putting it into forge makes more modders obsolete.


See, when it all comes down to it, your left with a few basic facts. First, all you'll be doing is turning forge into a mod pack itself. Second, there will be a lot of folks not able to revolutionize in their own ways. Lastly, not everything fits for every player. So it's not a case of communism, it's a case of freedom! It's a case of variety! It's a case of a keeping forge doing what it does best! We all love the idea's, even if most won't admit it, but it's just a lot of creativity that will end up lost


Qucik edit: Electricity, since I seen it mentioned. That one would be great, but it comes down to difficulty. RF is pretty easy. EU is a step up, and RotaryCraft is pretty banging on it. Some like it easy, some like it difficult. Making it all universal would disrupt the balance on existing mods which are balanced in their own way.

Firstly, I *have* done a lot of rethinking, as you'll see if you read the past few pages. Now, I'll answer you:
Ores: That's what resource packs are for! Plus it bugs me that the copper doesn't stack.
Tools: I guess that'd be better as a vanilla thing, if less likely.
Optimizations: GAAAAAH WHY CANT THESE WORK BETTER XD
Dual Wield: The reason I would want it in forge is that, while there's mods that add it, they have terrible compatibility records. So, they're next to useless in a modpack.
NEI: Can be disabled, maybe even by default.

Also, about the communism... I'm not saying the modders wouldn't continue doing what they do. We'd be much better off if they developed their own mods - I'm just saying they should be more readily available, say packaged with Forge. Same developer, everything, just part of forge. Mainly, compatibility with them should be more heavily encouraged. Including them in forge is a (rather heavy-handed) way to do so.

 

[trajing]

Thanks for clearing that up. The internet is a weird place, and I get fired up easily.

Firstly, I *have* done a lot of rethinking, as you'll see if you read the past few pages. Now, I'll answer you:
Ores: That's what resource packs are for! Plus it bugs me that the copper doesn't stack.
Tools: I guess that'd be better as a vanilla thing, if less likely.
Optimizations: GAAAAAH WHY CANT THESE WORK BETTER XD
Dual Wield: The reason I would want it in forge is that, while there's mods that add it, they have terrible compatibility records. So, they're next to useless in a modpack.
NEI: Can be disabled, maybe even by default.

Also, about the communism... I'm not saying the modders wouldn't continue doing what they do. We'd be much better off if they developed their own mods - I'm just saying they should be more readily available, say packaged with Forge. Same developer, everything, just part of forge. Mainly, compatibility with them should be more heavily encouraged. Including them in forge is a (rather heavy-handed) way to do so.

It's a bad idea because it discourages developing an alternative.

 

[Type1Ninja]

It's a bad idea because it discourages developing an alternative.

Which mod are you talking about?
Regardless of that, my argument would be (as it has been) that alternatives to certain mods are already discouraged, as "there's already a mod for that." While this 'solution' may also discourage alternatives, it at least helps existing mods to get better compatibility, to better suit the desires of the people who want to use them.

 

[trajing]

Which mod are you talking about?

Adding any of them would produce this result.

Regardless of that, my argument would be (as it has been) that alternatives to certain mods are already discouraged, as "there's already a mod for that." While this 'solution' may also discourage alternatives, it at least helps existing mods to get better compatibility, to better suit the desires of the people who want to use them.

This would discourage new modders from ignoring the community and making it anyway. "There's already a mod for that" is an argument that I hate, and I'm attempting to get the MC community over its aversion to multiple mods with the same purpose.

 

[Linkero]

Firstly, I *have* done a lot of rethinking, as you'll see if you read the past few pages. Now, I'll answer you:
Ores: That's what resource packs are for! Plus it bugs me that the copper doesn't stack.
Tools: I guess that'd be better as a vanilla thing, if less likely.
Optimizations: GAAAAAH WHY CANT THESE WORK BETTER XD
Dual Wield: The reason I would want it in forge is that, while there's mods that add it, they have terrible compatibility records. So, they're next to useless in a modpack.
NEI: Can be disabled, maybe even by default.

Also, about the communism... I'm not saying the modders wouldn't continue doing what they do. We'd be much better off if they developed their own mods - I'm just saying they should be more readily available, say packaged with Forge. Same developer, everything, just part of forge. Mainly, compatibility with them should be more heavily encouraged. Including them in forge is a (rather heavy-handed) way to do so.

Pffttttt, I know you've taken alternate views on things. I've been following since you first posted because, as mentioned, I like the ideas. I find it a good thing people are coming together to discuss the pro's/con's of it. I just wanted you to rethink with my 2 pennies

One thing I personally wouldn't mind seeing being "forced" upon by forge......InGameWiki support. While I don't use it myself, it can be difficult for users to find information out on particular items. Yeaaaaaa, wiki's exist, but information can be outdated or non-existent for the lesser used things. Who knows the mod better than the mod author themselves? I love the books that are included with TiCo and Draconic evolution and Mariculture and and and.....so awesome! In reality, the enforcement of it eliminates the discovery aspect, but that is definitely one thing I would force

Now I must give you kudos for starting the discussion. Perhaps something good will come of it in someway!



Side note about copper: I'd imagine that to be a pretty simple addon/mod as unifiers exist. Putting that in forge and adding an option like "IDon'tLikeOres" to the config would be absolutely plausible to me. Tho, some don't play nice with unifiers so there may be complications with it. Still, it would remain a backend thing and probably disabled by default. I'm sure you've rummaged through enough config files and found those backend options that made you facepalm and change. *looks at xp use on elevators*

 

[Type1Ninja]

This would discourage new modders from ignoring the community and making it anyway. "There's already a mod for that" is an argument that I hate, and I'm attempting to get the MC community over its aversion to multiple mods with the same purpose.

Well, we agree on that. My solution is just more frustrated-ly violent.

Pffttttt, I know you've taken alternate views on things. I've been following since you first posted because, as mentioned, I like the ideas. I find it a good thing people are coming together to discuss the pro's/con's of it. I just wanted you to rethink with my 2 pennies

One thing I personally wouldn't mind seeing being "forced" upon by forge......InGameWiki support. While I don't use it myself, it can be difficult for users to find information out on particular items. Yeaaaaaa, wiki's exist, but information can be outdated or non-existent for the lesser used things. Who knows the mod better than the mod author themselves? I love the books that are included with TiCo and Draconic evolution and Mariculture and and and.....so awesome! In reality, the enforcement of it eliminates the discovery aspect, but that is definitely one thing I would force

Now I must give you kudos for starting the discussion. Perhaps something good will come of it in someway!



Side note about copper: I'd imagine that to be a pretty simple addon/mod as unifiers exist. Putting that in forge and adding an option like "IDon'tLikeOres" to the config would be absolutely plausible to me. Tho, some don't play nice with unifiers so there may be complications with it. Still, it would remain a backend thing and probably disabled by default. I'm sure you've rummaged through enough config files and found those backend options that made you facepalm and change. *looks at xp use on elevators*

... Wow, I'm glad you thought it was worth it to follow. Yes, I agree about more wiki stuff and in-game books. I read the wikis on mods for fun.
I think AOBD has begun to do that sort of thing about ores, but I'm not sure a unifier feature is in yet. It pretty much just generates ores/blocks/dusts for any ingots that don't add them (which is actually kind of silly for some mods; after installing it I began getting "steel ore" from my mining laser XD)
That's something to ask about.

 

[Bibble]

I like coming back to this thread, every time I do, the arguments have changed. At this point (again), it comes down to 2 issues.

The first of which is the original one you wanted to tackle, and I think it's the reason that you've gotten as much opposition. The core of your argument is that you want mods to play nice with each other. You want to force/compel devs to make their mod play nice with each other. This kind of strikes at the root of the philosophy of mods. You mention that you get irritated that UE does it's own pulverisor/smelter equivalent, but that's the way it goes. The first grind/smelt ore doubling mechanic was (by my memory, others might remember older) IndistrialCraft. You could argue that the subsequent ones (Thermal Expansion, Factorisation, Ars Magica, Thaumcraft, Tinkers Construct, etc.) have all been people saying "I want to do that, but my way". That's usually at the heart of mods. Forcing mods to do things (ore gen, energy, etc.) a single way would be more likely to remove the modder's desire to make the wonderful things that they do.

Forge should enable people to do what they do, I (personally) don't think that they should dictate how it's done. That's something that the playerbase requests.


The other aspect is optimisations, and here there's precedent, there are quite a few things that Forge optimises over vanilla, and it does it well. The problem arises when there are "questionable" enchancements, such as those made by Fastcraft or Optifine, things that might work for most people, but not for everyone (some people report marked decreases in performance). These shouldn't be included, they're better off in their current, separate form. People know about them, and what they do, and are welcome to include them as required.

Things like NEI similarly have their own issues, and user affecting problems (crashing, lookup loops, performance hits, etc.), and there's simply no profit to forcing Forge to bundle them, other than annoying all devs in question.

These are arguments to be put to devs, and for them to weigh the merits of, not for players to take to any kind of "higher authority".