Content/Cross-Mod Compatibility in Forge/A Forge Sister-Mod?

[Bibble]

Valid point hadn't thought about that part of it so yeah bad idea that way maybe let the mod gen then forge converts that would take care of it so a post-gen ore dictionarying but pre-load .... hmm yeah nah overly complex solution to a minor problem lol

I quite like the idea of a unified system for it, but Forge isn't the place. Forge should be as universal as possible, allowing mod makers to do what they want to without enforcing onerous standards (some standards are good, such as with the ore dictionary). The point is that Forge is as backend as it gets.

Other stuff should be optional, and if mods want to tap into it, they can do, if they don't, they don't need to. Forge is a requirement for pretty much all mods, so not a place for optional stuff.

 

[FyberOptic]

Forge technically already goes above what an API should do by fixing vanilla's bugs. If you ask me, Forge takes long enough to start nowadays as it is, it just doesn't need more weighing it down.

 

[Type1Ninja]

I guess my original point was that forge is the only way to create a standard without needing it to get popular is to put it into the requirement for everything - in this case, Forge. I guess that idea is just too communist, and wouldn't work in the real world. It was really an "if only" thread in the first place. I'll change the thread title now to something that makes more sense.

 

[psp]

I guess my original point was that forge is the only way to create a standard without needing it to get popular is to put it into the requirement for everything - in this case, Forge. I guess that idea is just too communist, and wouldn't work in the real world. It was really an "if only" thread in the first place. I'll change the thread title now to something that makes more sense.

I feel like you already knew what responses you would get when you made this thread. You are taking away the foundation of what minecraft is built upon. The idea that you can do anything, there is no restriction.

 

[Type1Ninja]

I feel like you already knew what responses you would get when you made this thread. You are taking away the foundation of what minecraft is built upon. The idea that you can do anything, there is no restriction.

I actually didn't. I am very much so not blessed with foresight, and while I knew that my idea was a little rude to modders, I wondered what it would be like if it were implemented. I decided to post about it, because *I* like this idea, and I hadn't seen any discussions about this before (perhaps because all of you seem to already know how bad this would be).
To me, the fact that this idea was *so* terrible never even occurred to me. I've been trying to make a modpack ever since I realized that other people's modpacks - Technic, FTB, etc. - didn't do *exactly* what I wanted them to. Only recently has RF become a more-or-less universal standard, so I've finally released my modpack - after the third re-write, because compatibility is not important to every modder ever. I wondered if there was a way to accelerate that process of unversilization, to make life easier for modpacks in general - there are, in fact, some restrictions to Minecraft, even modded those being exclusively a lack of compatibility. The idea of implementing stuff into Forge was the only even semi-decent solution I could come up with.

So, no, I did not know at all what responses I would get. This idea genuinely makes sense to me and I've never seen it discussed before.
If it sounds like I'm a little angry, yes, I'm angry (you can tell because of the amount of italics in my post). You've insulted not just my idea but you've accused me (admittedly in a subtle way) of being a troll, and regardless of whether that was your intent, "Already knowing what responses you would get" is pretty much staple troll behaviour.

*sigh* I'll try not to be angry now.

 

[Padfoote]

because compatibility is not important to every modder ever.

Because it is literally impossible for modders to factor in compatibility with every other mod out there. That requires so much time that they cannot do it.

 

[Type1Ninja]

Because it is literally impossible for modders to factor in compatibility with every other mod out there. That requires so much time that they cannot do it.

I know, but the ones *I* want never seem to be implemented. Like I said, it's getting much better, but when I first had this idea it was still very much an issue.

 

[Kotaro]

I know, but the ones *I* want never seem to be implemented. Like I said, it's getting much better, but when I first had this idea it was still very much an issue.

Honest question, what would you like to have implemented?

 

[Type1Ninja]

Honest question, what would you like to have implemented?

Well, one thing that is still not universal is Tinker's Construct tool materials. It's clearly shooting up the charts in terms of popularity and compatibility (I've used TiCon since before it was cool ), but, for example, Redstone Arsenal has no support for it (which makes me sad, as the RA tools should be the best by their nature, but even the most basic TiCon tools outperform them in every way).
Another thing I have always wanted is better Galacticraft support. I'm not saying that it's a good mod, but Minetweaker has made it possible for me to solve the whole "mine for 5 hours in real time then come back and make your rocket" thing, which was one of my biggest issues.
The need for Power Converters has always driven me nuts, as it doesn't make sense that there's, say, three types of electricity in the world and you need a special machine to convert between them. I realize that a universal system might cause balance issues, but I personally never install RotaryCraft or Industrialcraft expressly because they don't use RF (I don't hate or even disagree with you if you do, and I'll use them gladly, they just won't go into a pack that I'm making).

As I write this, I realize that my biggest issue has - ironically - been Universal Electricity itself. There's several mods with good concepts that use it, but nobody will make an RF-based version because the mods already exist. In particular, I'm looking at Force Fields, ICBM, Galacticraft (at one point), Whatever mod added the particle accelerator from Voltz... Basically, I personally take issue with Calclavia because he's got a monopoly on sci-fi-warfare mods, and he's decided he needs his own API for it.

Like I said, both here and in the OP, RF is *almost* the universal standard I want, but there's still a couple outliers that refuse to acknowledge it. Again, like I said, content/more APIs in Forge was the quickest though not the politest way to prevent a proliferation of APIs (which drives me nuts).

There. That's another rant done... I'm halfway between "This is therapeutic" and "I should really unwatch this thread because it's unhealthy."

 

[FyberOptic]

I guess my original point was that forge is the only way to create a standard without needing it to get popular is to put it into the requirement for everything - in this case, Forge. I guess that idea is just too communist, and wouldn't work in the real world. It was really an "if only" thread in the first place. I'll change the thread title now to something that makes more sense.

In the case of something like the ore and fluid registries, that's a bit different, because it lets you expand on existing vanilla features and avoid conflict between mods. But power, dusts, multiparts, and anything like that are all concepts invented by the community. They're really only useful in regard to mainstream mods, and not for modding the game as it stands. I think that's always where the line should be drawn.

Besides, there's no guarantee that people would use any standard put into Forge for any of those things. People can/would/do still implement their own versions of things, even Mojang's things, either because they thought theirs was better, or because they didn't know how to use the other one. I wouldn't want IC2 to suddenly stop using EU for example. And in my own Redstone Paste mod I don't use anything like Forge Multipart, I let you place regular slabs over the paste because I feel that that better suits vanilla behavior (while also avoiding a mod dependency).

 

[psp]

Well, one thing that is still not universal is Tinker's Construct tool materials. It's clearly shooting up the charts in terms of popularity and compatibility (I've used TiCon since before it was cool ), but, for example, Redstone Arsenal has no support for it (which makes me sad, as the RA tools should be the best by their nature, but even the most basic TiCon tools outperform them in every way).
Another thing I have always wanted is better Galacticraft support. I'm not saying that it's a good mod, but Minetweaker has made it possible for me to solve the whole "mine for 5 hours in real time then come back and make your rocket" thing, which was one of my biggest issues.
The need for Power Converters has always driven me nuts, as it doesn't make sense that there's, say, three types of electricity in the world and you need a special machine to convert between them. I realize that a universal system might cause balance issues, but I personally never install RotaryCraft or Industrialcraft expressly because they don't use RF (I don't hate or even disagree with you if you do, and I'll use them gladly, they just won't go into a pack that I'm making).

As I write this, I realize that my biggest issue has - ironically - been Universal Electricity itself. There's several mods with good concepts that use it, but nobody will make an RF-based version because the mods already exist. In particular, I'm looking at Force Fields, ICBM, Galacticraft (at one point), Whatever mod added the particle accelerator from Voltz... Basically, I personally take issue with Calclavia because he's got a monopoly on sci-fi-warfare mods, and he's decided he needs his own API for it.

Like I said, both here and in the OP, RF is *almost* the universal standard I want, but there's still a couple outliers that refuse to acknowledge it. Again, like I said, content/more APIs in Forge was the quickest though not the politest way to prevent a proliferation of APIs (which drives me nuts).

There. That's another rant done... I'm halfway between "This is therapeutic" and "I should really unwatch this thread because it's unhealthy."

Universal compatibility would be iffy at best. I would probably go to another game if every mod used rf and everything was standardized.

 

[Type1Ninja]

Universal compatibility would be iffy at best. I would probably go to another game if every mod used rf and everything was standardized.

Not necessarily every mod would use it. I concede that point that IC2 or RotaryCraft should almost definitely keep their own system. What drives me nuts is pretty much only universal electricity (the mod)...
To me, UE adds a bunch of stuff included in TE, and it should use them instead, as all the ideas in Calclavia's mods are good, he just insists on using his own API. Right here, I'm talking both about the electricity system itself and many crafting recipes.

 

[Padfoote]

he just insists on using his own API.

And this is a problem how? It's his choice for his mods. Doesn't matter if you like it or not, he should not be required to change anything if he doesn't want to.

 

[FyberOptic]

To me, UE adds a bunch of stuff included in TE, and it should use them instead, as all the ideas in Calclavia's mods are good, he just insists on using his own API. Right here, I'm talking both about the electricity system itself and many crafting recipes.

I think it depends on your perspective as to whether this is a problem. I don't know how far back your experience with modded Minecraft goes, but there were times where the only way to convert energy between two mods was to produce a material with one to turn into energy with another. And honestly it wasn't that big of a deal. In fact it was part of most peoples' standard progression. People would try to come up with the best and craziest methods to make mods work together, and I think it really benefited the gameplay more than it hurt it. Eventually you had mods which bridged some of this functionality, like Power Converters from PowerCrystals, and that also worked just fine. The fact that you had to build the device to convert the power also contributed to the gameplay, in my opinion.

There's a terrible irony to how the unification of power systems today has ultimately led to less to actually do in the game.

 

[Type1Ninja]

And this is a problem how? It's his choice for his mods. Doesn't matter if you like it or not, he should not be required to change anything if he doesn't want to.

It matters because I want to put it in a pack without Power Converters, or without having to manually go through and Minetweak the recipe for every single thing I want to use. Modders make mods so people can use them, and modpacks are the way to get people to use mods. You know that! You're literally a member of the Phoenix Team, and you're an admin on the FTB Forums!
In making an ICBM mod, Calclavia has ensured that nobody will make an RF version, because "an ICBM mod already exists." The same goes for the antimatter-generating particle accelerators tied to this mod.

I guess... I guess maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist, and I have unrealistic ideals about teamwork. The best metaphor I can think of to try to convey how frustrating this is for me is this:
Some guy makes a table, puts it down in a park, and says "EVERYONE CAN USE THIS."
He continues to hang around the table, and he puts food on it, and chairs, and hires a bunch of massage people or something, and distributes all of this for free.
You use this, because it's cool, and free, and a bunch of your friends hang out around it.
Then some other guy comes along, sees the epick-table, and hacks together a plywood table and puts it down 20 feet away.
Only a couple people switch to his table, but those people are really creative people who you want to spend time with *really badly.*
However, you want to use the epick-table more, and you know that you would be even less happy switching.

If that doesn't at least make you laugh, I'll be sad.
Explanation for people who are somehow worse at interpreting metaphors than I am (I know I would need this):

Spoiler

RF is the epick-table.
Your friends are (tech) mods in general.
Calclavia is the other guy, UE is the plywood table
The creative people who leave are the concepts in Calclavia's mods, which now nobody will make an RF version for.

TL;DR - it's pretty much just Calclavia that bugs me. If somebody made an RF-powered ICBM and an RF-powered Particle Accelerator + Antimatter mod for it, I'd be happy.

I think it depends on your perspective as to whether this is a problem. I don't know how far back your experience with modded Minecraft goes, but there were times where the only way to convert energy between two mods was to produce a material with one to turn into energy with another. And honestly it wasn't that big of a deal. In fact it was part of most peoples' standard progression. People would try to come up with the best and craziest methods to make mods work together, and I think it really benefited the gameplay more than it hurt it. Eventually you had mods which bridged some of this functionality, like Power Converters from PowerCrystals, and that also worked just fine. The fact that you had to build the device to convert the power also contributed to the gameplay, in my opinion.

There's a terrible irony to how the unification of power systems today has ultimately led to less to actually do in the game.

I get in the logical part of my mind that variety is good, but the OCD part of my brain is too busy waving its pitchfork and torch to let me appreciate it.

EDIT: At any rate, I can say that I've officially started a thread that's turned into a fairly hot discussion.

DOUBLEEDIT: Just for reference, here's my story.

Spoiler

I started playing MC right around the 1.4.7 update. I had a server running within a month or two, and mods followed closely after that. I played with Technic a little bit, then decided to make my own pack because it wasn't what I wanted. I eventually gave up because of compat issues, and just made my own private FTB Ultimate server for my friends and I, which was a lot of fun. I played that for a while, but the combination of lag and not-doing-exactly-what-I-wanted-it-to made me want to make my pack again. I tried again, and again was struck down by Universal Electricity. I tried to go back to FTB, but only got a little way into Monster before the lag and overall expensiveness of stuff made me leave. I played some Third Party packs, but the fact that they focused on HQM really felt restrictive - there weren't any third party packs that encouraged an open-world build like you used to get in Ultimate. Finally, I decided to make my own pack. That succeeded! I'm happy with my pack. I just wish TiCon had a little more compatibility, especially with high-tier tools, and I wish I could use ICBM (Portal Gun and Gravity Gun would be nice too). This whole topic is just something that I think would've been useful during my first two attempts (it shouldn't take two!) at modpack-ing, so I decided to post about it.

 

[Padfoote]

Modders make mods so people can use them, and modpacks are the way to get people to use mods. You know that! You're literally a member of the Phoenix Team, and you're an admin on the FTB Forums!

Couple things:

1) Modders make mods because they want to.
2) Modpacks are not the only way people use mods.
3) I'm public relations and marketing for the PT and am a moderator for our members. I do not make packs, and never will.
4) I am not an admin here. Never have been. My banner just means I'm on the PT and nothing more.

 

[Type1Ninja]

Couple things:

1) Modders make mods because they want to.
2) Modpacks are not the only way people use mods.
3) I'm public relations and marketing for the PT and am a moderator for our members. I do not make packs, and never will.
4) I am not an admin here. Never have been. My banner just means I'm on the PT and nothing more.

Yeah... I guess just mainly look at and think over the bit about Calclavia essentially obtaining a monopoly on good ICBM-type mods. If someone else makes one, I'll be wrong, but I'll be happy to be wrong.

As to the bits about you saying that Modpacks are not the only way people use mods... You're right. Clearly, people like you and I and most of the people who have posted on this thread have installed mods themselves - they know Forge exists.
The only issue: most of the population - I'm sure it's some crazy statistic - uses modpacks. Out of everyone I have talked to irl - ever - I'm the only one who has installed mods of my own accord, without using a modpack. The only exception to that is the one time where three of my friends agreed to download four mods and joined a server I was hosting. The installation process still took at least a half hour, and we didn't even play the world again because there were only four mods.
The only reason you see so many people posting about the mods they've installed on forums is because the only posters are the people proactive enough to install their own mods. Testing forums is the most biased sample ever.

 

[psp]

@Type1Ninja
This seems more and more like you just want a mod like ICMB that is rf based.

But without further ado, I give you the magical thing that can make that happen!
http://files.minecraftforge.net/
http://www.minecraftforge.net/wiki/Basic_Modding
And go!


(It's actually really easy to set up and to start breaking stuff. I set it up last night. It's honestly much easier to do than I expected.)


If you want it in metaphor style.
Forge = infinite things (tables)

 

[Type1Ninja]

@Type1Ninja
This seems more and more like you just want a mod like ICMB that is rf based.

But without further ado, I give you the magical thing that can make that happen!
http://files.minecraftforge.net/
http://www.minecraftforge.net/wiki/Basic_Modding
And go!


(It's actually really easy to set up and to start breaking stuff. I set it up last night. It's honestly much easier to do than I expected.)


If you want it in metaphor style.
Forge = infinite things (tables)

... Thanks for not accusing me of being a troll! XD
The issue is, I couldn't get forge to work the first time I tried (I have done a little coding in java, and I've experimented with Unity). I also haven't had much time, and I've been making a modpack (which is my priority until I either have tons of time or think I'm finished). It seems like lots of tutorials are outdated (including, potentially, that one), and it's hard to find a good one.
... And yeah, my issue is pretty much with ICBM at this point. It just seems like something that could be happening with mods beyond just that, though, you know? It seems like it should be more preventable. Which is the point of the first post. I'll let this die now, though.

... Plus my metaphor made you laugh!

EDIT: Checked the link you posted, but it says on the page "may be outdated." The last edit is October 2014. :/ I can't tell whether or not it's updated, as further down it talks about MC 1.8.

 

[jordsta95]

I think the only thing which SHOULD be included, is NEI. If NEI was part of forge, and it wouldn't screw up the mods that currently don't work well with it, then it could make life so much easier.
Maybe inventory tweaks too.
But other than that, nothing NEEDS to be done... however, something that detected multiple items in the ore dictionary, e.g. copper, and unified them while loading, i.e. you have tinkers and thermal foundation, you will get either one or the other in your world. Not both. BUT that could annoy some people, and could screw over mods that don't use ore dictionary entries in their recipes, but add their items to the ore dict.