Compact Solars vs Advanced Solars

[eisbaerBorealis]

I was dinking around in Creative mode, testing out the FTB Beta pack, when I noticed that the higher-tier solars looked way different. I thought that the mod from the previous version of FTB (Compact Solars) had taken a major overhaul, but after some research I found out that there was an entirely different mod available for making more powerful solar panels.

For those who don't know, the Compact Solars mod is fairly straightforward, you just craft eight solar panels, then craft them around a transformer of that tier, and it combines them into a solar array.
8 normal panels + LV transformer = LV Solar array (with 8 EU/t output, logically)
MV Array gets you 64 EU/t, and HV array gets you 512 (but requires the crafting of 512 normal solar panels!)

Advanced Solar arrays have far more complicated crafting recipes (there are "easy" and hardmode recipes). Tiers 2 and 3 require a fair amount of UU matter. With this higher cost comes a few additional properties. The Advanced Solar Panels produce EU during the night and rainy days; one eighth of normal output. There is also an internal energy storage (32k, 100k, and 1,000,000 EU for the highest tier).

Check them out:
Compact Solars
Advanced Solars

And let me know what you think! I personally like the look of the Advanced Solar Panels, the additional traits, and the difficulty (and non-tediousness) of crafting. While I loved Compact Solars, I am happy for the change in the FTB pack. But I'm curious to know what others think.

 

[RivingtonDown]

Keep in mind I'm commenting from a perspective of someone who doesn't use Gregtech.

I did do some math awhile ago comparing Compact Solars to Advanced Solars. I think ASP (Advanced Solar Panels) starts out WAY too cheap. ASP makes the early IC2 game much too easy IMO. At the early stages you're not having problems with space, setting up 10 solar panels is nothing and you're easily in the Nether by the time you should have any concern about combining them. Then... with ASP, you CAN'T combine them, you upgrade only one and the others sit there still only collecting 1 EU/t or throw em out.

LV Solar Panel (8 EU/t):
105 Rubber
80 Iron
64 Cobblestone
55.5 Copper
48 Redstone
32 Tin
24 Coal
24 Glass
5 Wood
Plus: This consumes 8 of your Solar Panels

Advanced Solar Panel (8 EU/t):
29 Iron
25 Rubber
21.5 Copper
19 Coal
18 Redstone
16 Tin
9 Glass
4 Lapis
4 Glowstone
8 Cobblestone
Left Over: 3 Bronze and 5 Reinforced Glass.
Plus: You still have all but one of Solar Panels you built before making this.

It's just way too cheap for that kind of infinite energy. That's on "Easy Mode" but even in "Hard Mode" just add two Uranium and replace a dozen copper, tin, and iron with 9 pieces of glowstone. Actually, I think "Hard Mode" is easier in this instance.

 

[gendai351]

but the problem 250k eu to make a single lv cell

 

[eisbaerBorealis]

@RivingtonDown, I've never used Gregtech, so I can't keep that in mind because it means nothing to me.
What about the next two tiers? You've explained why The Advanced Solar Panel is too cheap in your opinion, but I'd hardly call 8 EU/t "infinite energy". And you mentioned the nether. Are you implying the usage of a geothermal generator and pump to drain your nether? Are you arguing that solar panels of any level are obselete after that? And I don't understand your conclusion about the difference between Easy and Hard mode for the Advanced Solar Panel... you don't replace any copper, tin, or iron with anything. You only add on the two uranium and nine glowstone; Hard mode is more expensive.

@gendai351, please explain yourself. what is an "lv cell"? Are you talking about an LV Solar Array? Or an Advanced Solar? What do you mean by 250,000 EU? Is that the cost to create all the raw materials in a Mass Fab without scrap? Are you arguing for or against Compact or Advanced Solars? Please make an actual, clear argument next time you post.

 

[RivingtonDown]

What I didn't really make too much of a point on though is I actually like Advanced Solar Panels. The recipe is so much less of a chore to build... it could be fun. I plan to switch my server to it from Compact Solars sometime very soon, this thread actually reminded me. I just really dislike how easy it makes the early game.

@RivingtonDown, I've never used Gregtech, so I can't keep that in mind because it means nothing to me.
What about the next two tiers? You've explained why The Advanced Solar Panel is too cheap in your opinion, but I'd hardly call 8 EU/t "infinite energy". And you mentioned the nether. Are you implying the usage of a geothermal generator and pump to drain your nether? Are you arguing that solar panels of any level are obselete after that? And I don't understand your conclusion about the difference between Easy and Hard mode for the Advanced Solar Panel... you don't replace any copper, tin, or iron with anything. You only add on the two uranium and nine glowstone; Hard mode is more expensive.

Well, the early game is all that really matters with this kind of balance to be honest with you. On my current server I'm very firmly mid/late-game right now, I have a single MV Solar Array and a couple extra LV ones, a few Bio Generators, and a couple GeoThermals I occasionally run on lava produced by my Thermal Expansion machines... and that's been enough to produce UU matter so that I could make Quantum Armor. I'll probably step it up a bit to get all the parts I'll need to make the Gravitation suit but, honestly, that would just help speed it up a bit. There comes a point between Quarries, Mining Turtles, and Mining Carts that resources aren't really too much of an issue... it becomes less about how much something cost and more about how complicated it is to build, if it requires liquids, pipes, or multiple machines working together. Whether I build a MV Solar Array, an HV Solar Array, a Hybrid Solar Panel or whatever the balance issues isn't much to speak on.

The reason I mentioned the Nether is because an Advanced Solar Panel requires Glowstone to make unlike an LV Solar array, even with the "easy recipe" since you need it for the Advanced Circuits. That could potentially introduce the argument that an ASP is a later game item than an LV Solar Array. My point was that, by the time you actually have the need for that kind of constant EU generation you would of already found diamonds and been to the Nether... let alone by the time you have almost the 100 iron and stack of redstone needed for an LV Solar Array. You're right about the easy/hard mode thing. I was mistaken with the recipe... still not really that much more difficult though since Uranium has very limited uses as it is. I do think it's cool that they incorporated it into the recipe though.

 

[aanthony3]

Part of the reason adv solars was added was because of what cpw (I think it was him) did on forgecraft. Compact solars can be automatically crafted using just UU matter. CPW built a self sustaining system that built HV solar arrays with no player intervention, which quickly becomesis very OP. Adv solars avopids this by using crafting components that can't be crafted from UU matter like Uranium.

 

[TheSandwichMakr]

With the help RivingtonDown's post about the cost I prefer compact solars because the whole point of the mod is to reduce lag while still costing the same amount of resources but advanced solars reduces the cost and only consumes one of your solar panels. The compact solars recipes actually make sense too, why would you put decorative rocks and light producing materials in a solar panel? Although I guess if you really wanted a recipe that made sense you would use redpower solars... Anyway, I obviously prefer compact solars.

Part of the reason adv solars was added was because of what cpw (I think it was him) did on forgecraft. Compact solars can be automatically crafted using just UU matter. CPW built a self sustaining system that built HV solar arrays with no player intervention, which quickly becomesis very OP. Adv solars avopids this by using crafting components that can't be crafted from UU matter like Uranium.

Well if the ic2 devs didn't intend for solar panels to be craftable using uu matter then they would've altered the solar panel recipe because even with advanced solars you could still make a similar solar factory it would just take up more space and produce more lag. Maybe they should just add both.

 

[Bnagers]

Of the two mods I prefer Advanced Solars. But it sure isn't going to win over any of the people who already think solar power in general is too easy/cheap/OP.

Also the Quantum Generator included in the Advanced Solars mod is a great idea for server admin / map makers.

 

[aanthony3]

Well if the ic2 devs didn't intend for solar panels to be craftable using uu matter then they would've altered the solar panel recipe because even with advanced solars you could still make a similar solar factory it would just take up more space and produce more lag. Maybe they should just add both.

I was just restating what Slowpoke's said in the past. I personally prefer Adv solars because I find the recipes so much more interesting.

 

[Dravarden]

Compact, since I just make them slowly and when I get enough I upgrade them, simple.

 

[gendai351]

But adding in the cost of the industrial centifuge and the system to produce to eu to run the centifuge that first solar is very high

 

[Greymerlion]

Agree with Dravarden about steady upgrades and that's become part of my routine, too. Haven't had any experience with Advanced Solars, on the other hand unless there's some kind of technical conflict, I'd rather have the option for both.

 

[Judgebot]

This really depends on what sort of things you are looking for, for example: somethings might be easier to make, there might be more options in one than the other, they might even be more powerful

 

[Uristqwerty]

Here's some math: One solar panel (original IC2 recipe) equals 17 + 1639/2520 UU, and generates 1 EU/tick -> 20 EU/second. At one million EU per UU, that is 50 thousand seconds per UU, or slightly less than 14 hours. 14 hours * 17 = a little less than ten days. I hear gregtech only makes things more expensive.

On top of that, it requires 8 cobble which *cannot* be created from UU, except for creating chiseled stone bricks and processing them in a rock crusher, which means that a solar panel requires an additional 5/6 UU, so 10.5 days.

That means that, running it all exclusively on it's own power output, you can double the number of solar panels every 10.5 days, and only if the entire production area is loaded all of the time. With EE2, you could get a doubling time of less than 6 hours, which means that solar panel UU doubling is 40 times slower.

If you question the UU cost calculations, see here. Keep in mind that this is for a single panel, not a LV, MV, or HV array. The massive production rate seen in DW SMP S2 would require manual production of 10 HV solar arrays just to be able to produce a single one in a full 24 hours. It would take a month to turn the initial 10 into 80, which is about a third of the number required to produce ~120000 EU/t. It is quite clear, then, that the only way this is even slightly possible is if the resources are gathered via massive frame quarry, and, with such a massive resource input, that kind of automated UU production is simply useless.

Also, compact solars scales perfectly to match gregtech's recipe changes, while advanced solars doesn't nessecarily maintain the same balance.

 

[Johny Idler]

Numbers aside, Advanced solars have much cooler GUI, EU storage and recharge slot. ;-)

 

[eisbaerBorealis]

Has anyone else questioned the logic behind compact solars? You take 8 meter-cubed blocks, squish them around another block, and somehow compress it down to the original size of one block. The HV solar arrays somehow have 512 cubic meters of solar panels inside of them (not to mention a number of transformers) and it just magically has the functionality of all those normal solar panels. This is another reason why I prefer the Advanced Solar Panels (minus the similar crafting option of the Ultimate Hybrid); as I see it, you're taking some high-tech, high-energy components and slapping them onto the lower-tier panels to make them more efficient. It's still a single solar panel, but upgraded.

 

[Bnagers]

Well sure, but lets not forget that your character can carry 36 x 64 cubic meters of cobble in his pockets, whilst wearing a full suit of Iron armour. Lets not talk about Minecraft realism.

 

[eisbaerBorealis]

Magic pockets. I still prefer upgrading solars to squishing them together.

 

[Bluehorazon]

I actually agree about Advanced Solars being too cheap. I like the others. Cpws Mod was purely meant to reduce serverlag, not much else. Making the stronger solars a bit more expensive than just that (although the recipes are pretty balanced at least Hybrid and Ultimate Hybrid work pretty well, since the Ultimate Hybrid has a recipe for combining and one for upgrading Hybrids and they are very similar in Iridium and UUM-Cost), is actually a good thing. Gregs makes the advanced solars a bit too strong, because it ups the cost of normal solars and moves them back in the techtree, so you will most likely be able to upgrade all your normal solars instantly. Thats not too bad, but advanced solars should be a bit more expensive.

Also Solars don't matter that much in FTB anyway. With Mystcraft, Railcraft, TE and Forestry automating Generators or Geothermals is so easy that it wouldn't be a good idea to use solars. Netherpumping, Charcoaling a Tree-Farm or a Netherquarry + Magma-Crucible all create incredible amounts of EU. Not to mention Railcraft Steamengines (again... charcoal wins, I'm not sure how Peat performs, since in IC2 it only gives 4.000 EU, but it could beat charcoal in a boiler).... well or just use a charged age with a lightning-rod.

So within FTB Advanced Solars are nice. With all the Mods balance is quite difficult and solars are weak in comparison anyway (have I mentioned automated watermills with RP2?). But Advanced Solars have more interesting recipies and the guis look really nice.

@uristqwerty:

Technically you are right about a single solar-panel. But if I start with 10 Solars, you are wrong. Compount interest. One UUM is 166.666 EU. So 18 of it costs you 3.000.000 EU. 10 Solars produce 5EU/t in a desert (since they will also run at night, you could use a mystcraft-age without night though). To create 3.000.000 EU you need 8hours and 20 minutes to produce a Solarpanel. At this point your EU-Production goes up to 5,5EU/t and the next Solarpanel only needs 7hours and 35 minutes and the next with 6EU/t 6hours and 50 minutes. Basically you lose 45 minutes for every new solar. After producing 9 the tenth will only need 4hours 23minutes. So on average you need 6hours and 22minutes to produce a solarpanel multiplied by 10 this is only 2 days 15 hours or 15 days and 18 hours without scrap (which would be stupid) or 7 days and 21 hours with permanent daytime and without scrap and only 1 day and 7hours with scrap in a mystcraft-age without rain or night.

You 21days (you said 10,5... but somehow you calculated Solars as 1 EU/t, which is only possible with mystcraft or by always sleeping at night, which again is only possible in SSP, but Solars are more a SMP-Problem since they are always loaded). What you miss is compound interest, since it is easy to place finished solars and feed their output into the system.

Also calculating cobblestone does not make sense. It is a free ressource, which is used for scrap-generation anyway so routing some cobblestone to make the glass is free, since cobblegens run at no cost. And the few EU used for the recycler are dropped during the calculation anyway and won't change much.