Challenge, Reward, and the ratio between them

[Tylor]

New experience is what makes game enjoyable. As long as game keeps giving you new experience, it is fun. Ideally, challenges encourage you to do different things, rewards change environment, both giving you new experiences. RNG is good when it makes you do things differently, and bad, when it forces you to repeat what you have already done (and bored of).

 

[Redweevil]

I fail to see any 'balance' point in resource bleed. Because it can be making things slowly while you are off conquering the world, so you come back to find them. Again, it's micro-management you don't have to handle. Which is why it is a good thing that you don't need to. By the time you get your AE autocrafting set up, you've been using the machines (although I wouldn't call them 'autocrafting'). You seem to be a bit confused here. AE Autocrafting requires multiple stacks of quartz, gold, and other resources. To be able to actually use the MAC requires an already established ME Network, which requires still more gold and diamonds and plenty of quartz. This is not something you can set up immediately, like you can with the new IC2-EX machine.

Well thats not entirely true. You can easily set up an export bus to your auto crafting table of choice and get the benefit of instantaneous crafting without the massively high cost.

My view of balance is more based upon the concept of self set limitations. I enjoy modded minecraft not because of the grind or the challenge, or becoming "OP". I enjoy it because its a sandbox with things you can actually do. I love setting up overly complicated machines or strange alternative power systems. Often the true challenge of the game comes from limiting yourself to using X mod to do this or Y mod to create power. Anyway can get massive amounts of resources by just investing time mining, so I don't really see world gen as a true sense of balance (exceptions to this would be if it generates in a different dimension that means you have to work to get there). But I'm also not a huge fan of GTs way of making you build machines just for the sake of that one item you want. I've loved using Redpower, and I can't wait to have a proper go with Engineer's Toolbox, because they feel like utility mods. On the whole they don't work very well on their own but you can combine them with other mods and creating interesting systems. For me thats the fun, challenge and reward of modded Minecraft. Working out, building and ultimately showing off complex designs.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well thats not entirely true. You can easily set up an export bus to your auto crafting table of choice and get the benefit of instantaneous crafting without the massively high cost.

That still requires an ME Controller, at least an ME Chest and 1k module, if you don't just skip that and go straight for the Disk Drive and a 4k module like I generally do, and that export bus. Furthermore, it requires a robust and consistent energy supply to keep it going. This is a far more significant investment in resources than the machine from IC2, which can be built while still bumming around in stone tools.

 

[Skyqula]

Riiiight. Because you're seriously going to be able to get this set up before your infrastructure Oh, and using a custom mod? Yea, not viable.

For that matter, almost no one will bother with this in the first place. Come on, 32 villages? Yea, that's not going to happen before you already have alternate solutions. Hell, I'll have an EnderEnder set up LONG before I could set one of these monstrosities up.

You can just watch the vid, no mod needed, can be done 100% in vanilla minecraft (AKA, no infrastructure needed, just an iron pick to get the gold/redstone). He only uses it to help explain how it works, its not actually needed for annything other then that. To add to that, 32 villages (stacked ontop of eachother)might seem alot, but this thing is much easyer to build then the "standard" 12 cell golem farms. (also an ender ender uses quite abit of pistons/redstone, its kind of comparable resource wise to what you need here) Ontop of that, modded mincraft makes this so much easyer. Redstone? Computercraft does more for less. Moving villagers? bottle/safarinet them right up. Villager spawners for easy breeding. Mystcraft/Enhanced portals 2 for easy golem transports. Heck, you could even make a turtle do the mayority of the building for you. Or chunk loaders so this thing doesnt need to be at spawn or constantly rebuilding itself. Besides, infinite iron isnt something that should be easy to make. It was just to point out that iron is, infact, renewable.

I fail to see any 'balance' point in resource bleed. Because it can be making things slowly while you are off conquering the world, so you come back to find them. Again, it's micro-management you don't have to handle. Which is why it is a good thing that you don't need to. By the time you get your AE autocrafting set up, you've been using the machines (although I wouldn't call them 'autocrafting'). You seem to be a bit confused here. AE Autocrafting requires multiple stacks of quartz, gold, and other resources. To be able to actually use the MAC requires an already established ME Network, which requires still more gold and diamonds and plenty of quartz. This is not something you can set up immediately, like you can with the new IC2-EX machine.

I don't need a vast power network with multiple of said tool machines with a bunch of overclockers. I only need one, no overclockers, running passively while I'm doing something else.

I can understand this playstyle, works realy well if you have the patience for it. I dont though. I love caving and when I get back from mining I simply wanna build stuff now. Whenever I need to wait for some plates to finish I go like, right harvest some wheat, breed some cows, harvest some other stuff. Come back, still not done making plates.... aaaand back to mining. Much faster to jut grab 5 iron and voila instant plates

Wich is why there needs to be "resource bleed". There are 3 resources involved into making plates: basic material (IE iron), crafting cost ((Machines + powernetwork + fuel) OR hammer uses) and time (seconds per plate vs instant per stack). If the hammer was infinite then there would be no crafting cost and there would be no time cost, making it the superior option for every use case. Especially when combining it with other autocrafting equipment that can use the hammer.

That still requires an ME Controller, at least an ME Chest and 1k module, if you don't just skip that and go straight for the Disk Drive and a 4k module like I generally do, and that export bus. Furthermore, it requires a robust and consistent energy supply to keep it going. This is a far more significant investment in resources than the machine from IC2, which can be built while still bumming around in stone tools.

Yeah, I hear ya. But EA is something that you will set up eventually annyway. Its not something you have to go out of your way of to do. Will making a plate bending machine be a good idea before EA? Probably. Using some iron and instead skip straight to EA? Sure why not.... Completly viable (given that hammers would have infinite uses). And since that would again make the crafting cost of plates zero and the time cost close to instant aswell as make a machine obsolete id say thats a pretty good reason to stay away from it.

And why I don't like the machine explosion mechanic.

What does this have to do with annything? We are not discussing total bad game design of a mod here. We are discussion how the hammer is actually a multi use reagent that is also a great time saver. A gameplay element that gives a player choice without actually taking annything away.
(FYI I pretty much hate IC2 because of its terrible power system/explosions/wrenchbreakingthing, I simply retried it with the recent Dartcraft machines and IC2's experimental changes, still dont like it Though Dartcrafts machines are a big step into making it more usable)

 

[thewindmillman]

Just a side note before i make my main point:

These IC2 hammer/wrench items need a durability for balance reasons.

Using the phrase "for X reasons" is about as informative as if you removed the X from it. Yes, you may have tried to summarize it but if that line is used the summary might as well have not existed in most eyes.

I wonder why this game seem to cause so much more discussion on the subject than other games do?

Here is where i want to make my main point. First though, I'd like to alter the question to why this modding scene causes the discussion, because this is where most of these types of discussions take place. Being someone who wants to go into game design myself, i ponder these types of things quite a bit, and i think i may have come up with an answer.

FTB in itself is a flawed idea. One that the FTB team has done well, but will never be able to get 'right' as it is now. Let me explain:

I keep seeing people weigh in with their opinions using the words 'personally', 'i want', 'in my opinion', and other such phrases and words. This, i believe, is the center of the issue. I see games as experiences, defined by the game and the player combined. Naturally, this means that some games are not compatible with some people, and the same thing applies to Minecraft Mods. Thus, when you try to mash them together like this, no matter how 'compatible' or 'balanced' you try to make them, they will end up conflicting with each other. Now, this may not be the case in all situations, but in FTB it certainly is. Otherwise, these kinds of discussions wouldn't crop up so often.

You might have asked yourself 'But mods are just that, extensions to Minecraft, so shouldn't they follow the game's idea?.' This is true, but Minecraft is a special case. The Difference i see between Minecraft and most other games, is the ratio between how much the experience is defined by the game and the player. It should go without saying that Minecraft's experience is drastically more defined by the player than the game itself. Most mods however, add more weight to how the experience is defined by the game as far as I've seen. Plus, these mods can have VERY different flavors to them, so mixing them can result in 'imbalance' and a general messiness.

Agree or disagree, or find some flaw in my logic? please do respond with why or what. I appreciate any opportunity to improve my knowledge of things like this.

 

[zorn]

Isn't the ic2 machine explosions an example if "challenge and reward"? You have to understand the system and not make a mistake, the reward is a smoothly functioning system.

Removing it is like eliminating that you lose your items when you die. Twilight forest's charms of keeping are good way to allow it, but eliminating all if the risk makes the reward less sweet, in my opinion.

 

[Skyqula]

Using the phrase "for X reasons" is about as informative as if you removed the X from it. Yes, you may have tried to summarize it but if that line is used the summary might as well have not existed in most eyes.

Thanks for pointing this out. You might have noticed that english isnt my first language I try to always mention what I am talking about though, considering people might quote certain parts and it could then be taken out of context. I could have formulated that better though...

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You can just watch the vid, no mod needed, can be done 100% in vanilla minecraft (AKA, no infrastructure needed, just an iron pick to get the gold/redstone). He only uses it to help explain how it works, its not actually needed for annything other then that. To add to that, 32 villages (stacked ontop of eachother)might seem alot, but this thing is much easyer to build then the "standard" 12 cell golem farms. (also an ender ender uses quite abit of pistons/redstone, its kind of comparable resource wise to what you need here) Ontop of that, modded mincraft makes this so much easyer. Redstone? Computercraft does more for less. Moving villagers? bottle/safarinet them right up. Villager spawners for easy breeding. Mystcraft/Enhanced portals 2 for easy golem transports. Heck, you could even make a turtle do the mayority of the building for you. Or chunk loaders so this thing doesnt need to be at spawn or constantly rebuilding itself. Besides, infinite iron isnt something that should be easy to make. It was just to point out that iron is, infact, renewable.

However, by the time you can get to the point where Iron is renewable, you've already gotten to the end-game, and the problem is largely obviated. So no, not really, at least not until mid-late game. I've gone thousands of blocks with no sign of village before, which kinda puts a damper on this concept.

I can understand this playstyle, works realy well if you have the patience for it. I dont though. I love caving and when I get back from mining I simply wanna build stuff now. Whenever I need to wait for some plates to finish I go like, right harvest some wheat, breed some cows, harvest some other stuff. Come back, still not done making plates.... aaaand back to mining. Much faster to jut grab 5 iron and voila instant plates

Or you could just stick in a stack of iron into the machine before going down into your caves, and come back with a stack of plates already made. Voila!

Wich is why there needs to be "resource bleed". There are 3 resources involved into making plates: basic material (IE iron), crafting cost ((Machines + powernetwork + fuel) OR hammer uses) and time (seconds per plate vs instant per stack). If the hammer was infinite then there would be no crafting cost and there would be no time cost, making it the superior option for every use case. Especially when combining it with other autocrafting equipment that can use the hammer.

I strongly disagree, but I don't think we're going to agree on this topic. The convenience in not needing the bloody thing around is enough of an advantage to not needing to use it.

Yeah, I hear ya. But EA is something that you will set up eventually annyway. Its not something you have to go out of your way of to do. Will making a plate bending machine be a good idea before EA? Probably. Using some iron and instead skip straight to EA? Sure why not.... Completly viable (given that hammers would have infinite uses). And since that would again make the crafting cost of plates zero and the time cost close to instant aswell as make a machine obsolete id say thats a pretty good reason to stay away from it.

And would require some thought and infrastructure and design concepting... which is fun.

What does this have to do with annything? We are not discussing total bad game design of a mod here. We are discussion how the hammer is actually a multi use reagent that is also a great time saver. A gameplay element that gives a player choice without actually taking annything away.
(FYI I pretty much hate IC2 because of its terrible power system/explosions/wrenchbreakingthing, I simply retried it with the recent Dartcraft machines and IC2's experimental changes, still dont like it Though Dartcrafts machines are a big step into making it more usable)

The topic had shifted to RNG and bad mechanics, so I addressed it as such.

Anyways, I think our basic point of difference is that I don't like the concept of a 'multi-use reagent', particularly not one which is constantly required and requires materials which are, effectively, non-renewable before the late-game.

Furthermore, if you consider the 'resource bleed' to be a 'balancing factor', yet you also consider iron to be a renewable resource, then you have just shot your own argument in the head. Resource bleed of renewable resources is not a balancing factor. See also: charcoal-based boilers. Which are now the only viable ones in the game.

 

[Hoff]

See also: charcoal-based boilers. Which are now the only viable ones in the game.

Correction; plank-based boilers. They're actually better.

 

[un worry]

I keep seeing people weigh in with their opinions using the words 'personally', 'i want', 'in my opinion', and other such phrases and words. This, i believe, is the center of the issue. I see games as experiences, defined by the game and the player combined.

This really resonates with my view on FTB and modded MC. Its not about the rewards, but what we find rewarding.

For example, in my circle of friends, everyone plays FTB Unleashed ... but no-one has the same pack or playstyle. We customize our mod lists to alter our environment and what we experience within the game.

FTB provide us with a great foundation of mods -- bundled together, reasonably interoperable, allowing the player to decide what to enable or explore.

 

[Skyqula]

Furthermore, if you consider the 'resource bleed' to be a 'balancing factor', yet you also consider iron to be a renewable resource, then you have just shot your own argument in the head. Resource bleed of renewable resources is not a balancing factor. See also: charcoal-based boilers. Which are now the only viable ones in the game.

I entirely agree with you on this one (outside of shooting my own argument, what it realy does is show and IC2 design flaw). And I think the reason mod makers arent worried is because it actually takes some time/resources to make iron renewable (and a complex vanilla build not alot of people would consider making). Besides, most mods add there own metals annyway. So even with golem farms present, not a whole lot will be gained.

It would be interesting to see what happens of someone made a mod that allowed for golems to spawn of all metal types dropping there respective ingots. With spawn chances based in the rarity of the metal and still following the max golem and spawning rules of a village ofcourse. I think we would see an increase in people making these golem farms. An interesting idea...

Wich reminds me, Redpowers way to create basalt: Ice/snow and flowing lava next to a thermopile. That was an awesome game mechanic that made you think of ways to create and harvest basalt in a way that was efficient and effective. Even made for an intersting powerplant concept. Loved it!

 

[Redweevil]

That still requires an ME Controller, at least an ME Chest and 1k module, if you don't just skip that and go straight for the Disk Drive and a 4k module like I generally do, and that export bus. Furthermore, it requires a robust and consistent energy supply to keep it going. This is a far more significant investment in resources than the machine from IC2, which can be built while still bumming around in stone tools.

Honestly it's not really that bad an investment. You can run a basic system off a few force engines or some kind of coal power, same as the IC2 machines

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honestly it's not really that bad an investment. You can run a basic system off a few force engines or some kind of coal power, same as the IC2 machines

You'd still need the infrastructure set up to automate the fuel supply, or it's eventually going to run out.

 

[CascadingDragon]

You can just watch the vid, no mod needed, can be done 100% in vanilla minecraft

You are using an "outdated" video. This one, by the same person, is much better.

I may or may not have screwed up the ore generation configs when I reset my world, and there may or may not be any iron generated.... So between myself and a friend, we managed to build this. Obscene amounts of iron. I don't even have enough uses for iron.

--------------
On topic
-------------
I generally change the configs for my server to make gathering resources easier, and buffing power production and/or nerfing machine energy use. The people on my server prefer to build and challenge each other, and we don't like behind "held back" by resource gathering. My friends who don't like it liken it to cheating and ask why we don't just use Creative. It seems that they prefer more tedium and more challenge, where as my server mates prefer higher rewards and less tedium. It makes me grateful that there are so many mods on either side of the spectrum in this community.

 

[Redweevil]

You'd still need the infrastructure set up to automate the fuel supply, or it's eventually going to run out.

Hopper? Honestly AE is one of the first things I like to set up followed by power

 

[casilleroatr]

I mostly play in creative mode. Even though I do away with the problem of resource gathering, I still find challenges for myself. The reason I play creative is mainly because I hate living in dirt huts and I don't feel particularly inspired by early game (especially if I have done it legit at least once already in the mod pack I am using at the time). It also allows me to get straight to the thing I like most. Building - without worrying about resources.

My current world has a Candy Kingdom theme. I have disabled a lot of biomes in BoP so that the world is mostly a magical forest with a few frozen or deadland areas. I have a capital where I am slowly building a huge castle. I might build a village around it. I am also building a huge train yard in my capital area and I am going to have loads of bees and farms in that area. Further north I have built into a mountain a more futuristic base which has an ore processing and oil refining facility. It is served by my rail network. I have finished that railway depot/base and it was one of the most complicated things I have ever built in minecraft. I used a lot of computercraft automation on it too, including one computer which records the contents of a delivery and prints it out into a book so I have a record of every item that gets imported into that base via train. I am slowly going to implement a "trade" simulation just for the pleasure of it. (Btw, I made a detailed post about this system in the community showcase if anyone is interested). When building this system I learnt loads of new things, including how to use liquid logistics pipes, ender io, and loads of stuff to do with open peripherals and computercraft, not to mention railcraft itself. I also ended up using all six circuits on 2 rednet controllers in different parts of the base which is a first. It was really satisfying to make and I tried to make it look neat and nice too.

The railcraft train routing works really nice to and playing it in creative mode allows me to abstract the problems of resource acquisition (e.g. I am using a liquid duplicator to make endless oil in a remote base about 2000 blocks away from the refinery - connected by rail). I can jump straight into building this extensive scenic railway to connect my Candy Kingdom together. I will play this way on this world happily even though I have no real "problems" to solve because I can just hit creative. That being said - I never used railcraft automation in a survival world. I would go with the easier tesseracts.

Oh, I also made a rainbow sign over using computer craft. Its pretty and I enjoy seeing it and it doesn't bother me that I spawned in the computer and monitor. I did write the program myself though.

You might have asked yourself 'But mods are just that, extensions to Minecraft, so shouldn't they follow the game's idea?.' This is true, but Minecraft is a special case. The Difference i see between Minecraft and most other games, is the ratio between how much the experience is defined by the game and the player. It should go without saying that Minecraft's experience is drastically more defined by the player than the game itself. Most mods however, add more weight to how the experience is defined by the game as far as I've seen. Plus, these mods can have VERY different flavors to them, so mixing them can result in 'imbalance' and a general messiness.

Agree or disagree, or find some flaw in my logic? please do respond with why or what. I appreciate any opportunity to improve my knowledge of things like this.

I think your's is a good analysis. In creative mode though, all the "gameplay" elements of a mod like extra utils division sigil ritual or thaumcraft's research are removed and the player takes near complete control of the game experience as s/he can just exploit all the content as they see fit. I routinely spawn in wands of equal trade. I am looking forward to having a couple of legit playthroughs in 1.6 either in resonant rise or a possible 1.6 FTB pack, the new gameplay mechanics in a lot of the mods look very interesting. I like how some mechanics from different mods sometimes compliment eachother, not just in effect but also in theme. For example, Ars magicka healing spells vs blood magic. I was watching Kirindave's new series where he demontrated this.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Wich reminds me, Redpowers way to create basalt: Ice/snow and flowing lava next to a thermopile. That was an awesome game mechanic that made you think of ways to create and harvest basalt in a way that was efficient and effective. Even made for an intersting powerplant concept. Loved it!

I love builds like this- FTB/forgemods need a lot more mechanics like that.
An in-world mechanism/process which you assemble a machine around it to automate. I've always found these designs more creative than pumping items into another magic block machine.
Forestry peat (pistons & block breakers pushing rows of bog earth through water), Factorization dark iron (full auto wrath forge) and lacerator.
Cobble gens can be fairly neat mechanical monstrosities too.

I've heard a lot of people say they like watching items flow through pipes, I'm one of them too- but its nothing compared to the kick you get out of watching mechanised build doing its thing

IC2 Machines going boom

This isnt as bad as what it was, the later versions have all the power capacities/outputs/limits labelled when you mouse over them.

I know the reason they explode; its gameplay based around designing your powergrid effectively- though its a bit of a heavy punishment.
(I'd rather some kind of electrical 'short out' and be left with a machine block and a scorched player)
​

Not 100% on the IC2 config, but the Gtech one has options to turn all that off.

- though the wirefires a lot of fun when its someone else's stuff.​

 

[dwappo]

I like that idea about IC2 machines. if you put too much power into then, you should have to craft a fuse, or integrated circuit and right click the machine with said object to repair it.

Can't you make the transformer upgrades?

 

[casilleroatr]

The lacerator from factorization looks like a fantastic mechanic. Factorization seems to have changed a lot, and its one of my favourite mods already so I can't wait to see the changes for myself. Setting up a process with that will be the sort of challenge I like and I will probably be attempting it in survival.

I just thought of another reason why I often play in creative. It is the easiest, fastest way of sampling mod content in a large pack. Since I started modded minecraft about 9 months ago I have only made my own custom modpacks. I can handle a pack that is roughly direwolf20 sized on my own sorting out configs and updating mods and resolving conflicts etc. After I have spent ages putting together an exotic pack, after sifting through near endless ad.fly downloads and text files, I don't really feel like punching wood.

In 1.6 I can really see the modpack offerings changing at a faster pace than I can maintain on my own in a custom instance. One modpack in particular has my attention for offering the full range of mods I would consider essential to my minecraft game plus a load of extra ones which I am very curious about. Now that I am finally prepared to let a third party take care of modding minecraft for me, perhaps I will be prepared to play on survival more often. The rewards of making cool contraptions will likely be the same, but half the challenge (making the mod environment in the first place) will have already been taken care of so the challenge/reward ratio might start to be more appropriate for me even though I don't particularly enjoy resource acquisition (especially when it involves pumping oil out of the ocean - has that been improved in 1.6 buildcraft so the system doesn't get bunged up with water).

Sorry for 2 walls o' text everyone - but this thread is really interesting to me