Challenge, Reward, and the ratio between them
- Thread starter ShneekeyTheLost
- Start date
I think my biggest annoyance with TC4 is how so much of the research is brushed off as "oh it should be rather intuitive" when so much of it is not. Golem Core: Harvest for example doesn't use the Harvest aspect. Sword of the Zephyr doesn't use Weapon aspect. With how hard it is to gather research aspects if you run out of them (which can be quite easy to do after spending a while turning aspects on/off while doing research when first trying the mod) it feels almost punitive, and pushes people out of game to find a research walkthrough.
To be honest, I still have no idea how to get more aspects if I run out short of hoping to find more aura new aura nodes (big world saves ftw?). The one thing I thought I knew (if an aspect on your research table has a glowing star on it, you'll regenerate that aspect over time) doesn't seem to work at all. It's made me very cautious and directed about what I research
Bookshelves will regenerate a single point of a single aspect for you. It appears to be random. I have my enchanting area near to my research table so that gave many bonus points. Also, crystal clusters will regenerate the primal aspects, so that way you know what ones you'll be getting.
The trick to the bonus points is that they're only used if they're the last available point, they're not used first (boy would it be helpful if they actually were used first!). For the more complex aspects, my only guess would be that you're supposed to generate two lower bonus points and then combine them to the one you want.
In all honesty, if you're looking for bonus points, I would just build out an area with at least 46 bookshelves (since there's 51 aspects, but 6 are primals you can get from clusters, so a 3x4x4 of bookshelves with the clusters on top) and surround it with research tables. Since the bonus points are tied to the table, not your account, you can get a bonus point at each of the tables. Then you can bring your research notes around to all the different tables working on them.
As it stands, though, the bonus point system seems pretty lame since you can only have one at a time, and you have to burn through your other points before you can use it. It's pretty unlikely that it will ever actually make the difference in your research.
that's what I found out, just spam some bookshelves and research tables for more aspect bonus points. but as you only get 1 research point per aspect.... you can't really do much with it
It comes back over time, and it is a random point per bookcase, chosen from amongst your known aspects randomly. You do not need to have a point to receive a point. Putting your research desk near your enchantment table setup will completely change the research game for you.
I suppose it's because this is a game that most gamers imagined at some point. You can create or destroy everything in the world. It's unprecedented. It's a true sandbox. You have tools, raw materials, and your imagination. If you have kids or spend time with them, it doesn't take long before an argument breaks out about what to do with the sand castle, or Lego blocks, etc...
The arguments are annoying, but the progression of late into true mature debate is fantastic. The civility of this thread is testament to that. Also the shades of gray presented are phenomenal. Some of us are so close in view that it's scary. Others are so far apart its a wonder we're playing the same game. But we are and that's the beauty and flexibility of Minecraft.
For me, modded Minecraft wasn't about challenge from a mod perspective. I didn't come here to build machines or complex logistical systems. I wanted automation of my vanilla tasks first and foremost. Secondly I wanted more blocks, more paint on my palette.
I don't mind paying a machine price for my quarry. It's the girl that brought me to this dance after all. I don't mind paying an investment to get building materials, food, tools. But I get little satisfaction in trading one grind for another. Strip mining for resources is a grind. If I have to replace mining with staring at a crafting table I find that frustrating. I'm still not reaching my goal.
I like to build buildings. Castles, houses, fountains, fields of wheat, etc... I like to fight monsters, explore Biomes and labyrinths. I like magical items and loot and ways to show off my loot. I love a variety of blocks and armor and cool abilities.
No where in that list is making hammers to make wires to make a machine that makes wires. It's a distraction from my goal. My challenge is finding a way to make quarried stone work well with hardened clay. My challenge is building a house that has texture. My challenge is having machines with no wires showing. My goal is fun being derived from these activities.
So I tend to lean towards the mods that get me to my goal and get out of my way. But that's just me. I LOVE that there are options that cater towards the technical play style. I love seeing wildly complex machine builds. What I don't like is being shackled to a modpack that forces me down a path of technology that derails me from my goals.
To get aspects, you need a couple (more is better) of deconstruction tables, wood to make wooden hoes, chest and hoppers to feed tables with hoes in bulk.
I think the most challenging part of having these conversations is that some people view "time investment" as the primary factor for determining difficulty, whereas others use "complexity investment", whereas other still only care about results in an absolute scale.
For people who value "time investment", the number of hours to reach any given level of capability should be the same, and more hours equals more results. People who have already committed large sums of time tend to be in this camp for fear of invalidating their investments, but it is a very natural way to try and categorize how things should be. These people often do not like things like TiCo/Dartcraft area tools or Turtle Quarries because they don't require significant time investments to do a certain task.
People who value "complexity investment" tend to want a lot of moving parts to justify a build. For these folks, huge returns on low time investments are fine so long as the process to get there was quite complex. For example, these people think that ore tripling from Factorization is fine because it's significantly complicated to automate optimally. Meanwhile these people are very irritated by Turtle quarries because so many people can work around the complexity instantly. These people routinely find no problem in outrageously good cross-mod combinations if they are sufficiently obscure.
Finally, some people do not care about the how. For them, there is a baseline expected power level for all of modded minecraft and if anything goes around that baseline–no matter the process–is unacceptable. Some people feel that ANY ore processing that goes beyond doubling is unacceptable power creep, for example. Many people exhibit this feeling when they see new resource acquisition methods or power generation techniques.
Of course, no one is a single archetype here. Everyone has their own dial set differently for these values. But identifying where people place their respect and what their expectations are will allow you to better understand their suggestions and expectations.
For people who value "time investment", the number of hours to reach any given level of capability should be the same, and more hours equals more results. People who have already committed large sums of time tend to be in this camp for fear of invalidating their investments, but it is a very natural way to try and categorize how things should be. These people often do not like things like TiCo/Dartcraft area tools or Turtle Quarries because they don't require significant time investments to do a certain task.
People who value "complexity investment" tend to want a lot of moving parts to justify a build. For these folks, huge returns on low time investments are fine so long as the process to get there was quite complex. For example, these people think that ore tripling from Factorization is fine because it's significantly complicated to automate optimally. Meanwhile these people are very irritated by Turtle quarries because so many people can work around the complexity instantly. These people routinely find no problem in outrageously good cross-mod combinations if they are sufficiently obscure.
Finally, some people do not care about the how. For them, there is a baseline expected power level for all of modded minecraft and if anything goes around that baseline–no matter the process–is unacceptable. Some people feel that ANY ore processing that goes beyond doubling is unacceptable power creep, for example. Many people exhibit this feeling when they see new resource acquisition methods or power generation techniques.
Of course, no one is a single archetype here. Everyone has their own dial set differently for these values. But identifying where people place their respect and what their expectations are will allow you to better understand their suggestions and expectations.
To address one of points from the OP
Playing on a 1.6.4 server, I ran into the exact same problem.. and the (mostly) the same solution.
Eventually I had my AE network connected to 3 metal formers, and I could make anything i wanted.
Queue up one medium solar array... OMFG it was sooooo sllllooowwww (even with overclockers). So while waiting for my 5x overclocked metal formers to run, I dusted off the old forge hammer and almost instantly crafted an entire stack of the plates I was waiting for.
So yes, the hammer consumes non-renewable resources (iron), but at the same time, the metal former machines consume a very diferent non-renewable resource -- your time.
Which is more valuable? For me, time was more valueable (I had 20k iron in inventory). A quick re-configure of my AE network and the plates were flowing like water.
But for others, the time saved vs the resources used from the hammer over the time used by the machines may not be worth it.
Now on the other side of things, my Opinion is the exploding IC2 machines and the wrench mechanic are something evil. to completely loose that battbox you worked so hard to craft because it cant handle the input -- or to have 16 diamonds vanish because your pick slipped and hit a MFE? Both are a major slap in the face.
After being bit several times, people learn.... but it still leaves me wondering "whats the point?" Yes its closer to reality, but if I wanted reality, i would not be playing a game.
Playing on a 1.6.4 server, I ran into the exact same problem.. and the (mostly) the same solution.
Eventually I had my AE network connected to 3 metal formers, and I could make anything i wanted.
Queue up one medium solar array... OMFG it was sooooo sllllooowwww (even with overclockers). So while waiting for my 5x overclocked metal formers to run, I dusted off the old forge hammer and almost instantly crafted an entire stack of the plates I was waiting for.
So yes, the hammer consumes non-renewable resources (iron), but at the same time, the metal former machines consume a very diferent non-renewable resource -- your time.
Which is more valuable? For me, time was more valueable (I had 20k iron in inventory). A quick re-configure of my AE network and the plates were flowing like water.
But for others, the time saved vs the resources used from the hammer over the time used by the machines may not be worth it.
Now on the other side of things, my Opinion is the exploding IC2 machines and the wrench mechanic are something evil. to completely loose that battbox you worked so hard to craft because it cant handle the input -- or to have 16 diamonds vanish because your pick slipped and hit a MFE? Both are a major slap in the face.
After being bit several times, people learn.... but it still leaves me wondering "whats the point?" Yes its closer to reality, but if I wanted reality, i would not be playing a game.
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
I've always felt half of the challenge is down to the technique/player, if not then its more than half.
Time management is another hidden challenge; don't wait for something to cook- get the next bit ready while its going.
This message seems ingrained throughout the mod as a whole. Invest your resources in the right places and you'll kill a lot of the grind. Balance the high-efficiency options (wiremill, lathe, assembly machines, heat vents/upgrades/coils) against a choice of base metal (brass/aluminum/steel/tungsten hulls ect), and build autocrafting systems to do the hard work.
(GT easy/hard seems to be balanced around automation. Electric machines should auto-eject out the back BTW, as well as options to conduct power (RP/FZ style) and push items/liquid like TE).
A lot of this depends on your progress through the tech tree- 20k iron suggests heave auto-mining, so some lost iron via hammer is less then the lost time.
Early/Mid game- resources aren't automatic, the time spent mining is more than the time spent forming.
Though a lot of people still play the latter- forgetting time as a resource altogether.
Though if you have 20k iron in AE, level emitters to keep 1k of plate/wire stocked shouldn't hurt much.
The other biggest factor is risk. Challenge Vs Risk Vs Reward.
- If you sit in your mines- its safe but it can quickly become a rather boring grind. Its very slow, and you wear down your tools on cobble. Extra picks eat a little profit.
- Where's cave diving can net resources a lot faster- all the heavy digging is done, you net more resources faster- at the risk of getting blown up or shot. Armour/weapons eat a little profit.
- The 3rd option is getting someone/thing else to do it for you- at the cost of more resources than the first two. (hopefully you'll profit)
By example- look at Thermal Expansion's metal ore processing.
The smelter- numerically a lower total yield (5-10%) and your running 2 machines (pulveriser for the sand).
Seems a no brainer right? Except the smelter bonus can apply to any ore- giving you a boost of what you're low on when you need it.
(Interestingly the latter also means forward planning/thinking ahead- the art of knowing what you'll need before you get there*.)
Obviously the exception of ferrous ore- pulverising the only source of shiny stuff. So the absolute best solution is to play a mod to its strengths- in this case splitting ores between both to give a net gain of what's needed.
*A lot of you probably do this for the BC chipsets. They take a while to cook so you make 'em before you need them right?- Pulveriser- nets 2x ores, with a bonus metal
- Induction Smelter- nets 2x ores, with slag.
The smelter- numerically a lower total yield (5-10%) and your running 2 machines (pulveriser for the sand).
Seems a no brainer right? Except the smelter bonus can apply to any ore- giving you a boost of what you're low on when you need it.
(Interestingly the latter also means forward planning/thinking ahead- the art of knowing what you'll need before you get there*.)
Obviously the exception of ferrous ore- pulverising the only source of shiny stuff. So the absolute best solution is to play a mod to its strengths- in this case splitting ores between both to give a net gain of what's needed.
Time management is another hidden challenge; don't wait for something to cook- get the next bit ready while its going.
Railcraft seems a good example here- the amount of times I've fired a solid boiler from an adjacent chest- then assembled the engines and fuel/water lines while its cooking up.
Oh by the way- the next bit mentions GregTech a little. If you're allergic I advise against opening the spoiler.
This message seems ingrained throughout the mod as a whole. Invest your resources in the right places and you'll kill a lot of the grind. Balance the high-efficiency options (wiremill, lathe, assembly machines, heat vents/upgrades/coils) against a choice of base metal (brass/aluminum/steel/tungsten hulls ect), and build autocrafting systems to do the hard work.
- Its technique again; if you can adapt and roll with it the mod starts to shine. If you hammer away in a mine it becomes an impossible grind. The challenge lies in thinking on your feet and planning ahead of where you are.
(GT easy/hard seems to be balanced around automation. Electric machines should auto-eject out the back BTW, as well as options to conduct power (RP/FZ style) and push items/liquid like TE).
A lot of this depends on your progress through the tech tree- 20k iron suggests heave auto-mining, so some lost iron via hammer is less then the lost time.
Early/Mid game- resources aren't automatic, the time spent mining is more than the time spent forming.
Though a lot of people still play the latter- forgetting time as a resource altogether.
Though if you have 20k iron in AE, level emitters to keep 1k of plate/wire stocked shouldn't hurt much.
Last edited:
Just wanted to add a 4th archetype that I personally fall into partially.
People that do not care about the how or any necessary investment. Personally I don't really care how long something takes. I can just spend more time on it. I don't care if something is stupidly simple and gives more resources than something that is more complex. The choice of what to use is just based on what seems "fun", "cool", etc. Anything and everything goes.
Personally I deviate a bit because I do have an upper limit on how complex something is, how long it takes, and the amount of stuff it gives me. All of which are subject to change at any time.
Interesting topic.
This risk/reward (or challenge/reward) system is, of course, the crux of any game. Don't give enough back to your players, and soon enough, they won't be your players anymore. Every game handles this problem differently; Diablo1-3 made you run dungeons over and over and over to get the perrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect set of gear. EverQuest had you camping named mobs for weeks to get your drops (but when you got them, no bigger sense of joy and accomplishment). Both acceptable, both worked (D3 notwithstanding...that was a pile for sure). Speaking of Diablo 3, it was a fundamentally exact copy of the first two, yet was almost instantly reviled as a "bad" game. All used the same mechanics, but something was lost in the translation from D1 to D3; mob difficulty. In D3, there were "super mobs" that had the exact setup that would destroy all but the very very VERY best geared players; and knowing you were going to fail is an unpleasant experience for a gamer, regardless of game.
For me personally, I like to have a nice mix of automated machines and systems (hoppers and pipes for furnaces and macerators etc.) so that I can spend my time doing more detailed tasks like bee-breeding. As noted by other posters, time is only important to me IF the task is boring and repetitive. Hand-making dozens of frames is tedious, hand breeding dozens of bees is engrossing for me. It's an almost impossible task to write out how to make something not "boring" or tedious, because those are just words for feelings you get, and no two people experience things the same.
The short version is, if you make something a complicated, convoluted, or otherwise lengthy endeavor; you have to reward the participant in some manner that scales with the time/materials/energy involved. That reward does not necessarily mean a tangible (as far as tangible goes in a digital game) reward, but rather giving the FEELING of reward for completing the task. It's that feeling of accomplishment that keeps us coming back for another machine, another level, another building, or another dead dragon.
This risk/reward (or challenge/reward) system is, of course, the crux of any game. Don't give enough back to your players, and soon enough, they won't be your players anymore. Every game handles this problem differently; Diablo1-3 made you run dungeons over and over and over to get the perrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect set of gear. EverQuest had you camping named mobs for weeks to get your drops (but when you got them, no bigger sense of joy and accomplishment). Both acceptable, both worked (D3 notwithstanding...that was a pile for sure). Speaking of Diablo 3, it was a fundamentally exact copy of the first two, yet was almost instantly reviled as a "bad" game. All used the same mechanics, but something was lost in the translation from D1 to D3; mob difficulty. In D3, there were "super mobs" that had the exact setup that would destroy all but the very very VERY best geared players; and knowing you were going to fail is an unpleasant experience for a gamer, regardless of game.
For me personally, I like to have a nice mix of automated machines and systems (hoppers and pipes for furnaces and macerators etc.) so that I can spend my time doing more detailed tasks like bee-breeding. As noted by other posters, time is only important to me IF the task is boring and repetitive. Hand-making dozens of frames is tedious, hand breeding dozens of bees is engrossing for me. It's an almost impossible task to write out how to make something not "boring" or tedious, because those are just words for feelings you get, and no two people experience things the same.
The short version is, if you make something a complicated, convoluted, or otherwise lengthy endeavor; you have to reward the participant in some manner that scales with the time/materials/energy involved. That reward does not necessarily mean a tangible (as far as tangible goes in a digital game) reward, but rather giving the FEELING of reward for completing the task. It's that feeling of accomplishment that keeps us coming back for another machine, another level, another building, or another dead dragon.
Challenge (and Reward too, same arguments apply to it) is way too subjective when playing Minecraft. There definitely isn't any true definition of challenge in that game. THAT is the main problem. This is why people whine here and other praise modders there. But too many don't realize it, and only consider mods with their vision of challenge, which of course will automatically make conflicts appear. We should just stop spitting on mods because they don't fit our view, the modders do what they want, and their mods are enjoyed by some people, not by others. FTB main mod packs usually target everyone, thus putting a lot of mods in the packs, and we just use what mods we like.
The only problem that people have with Greg Tech is that it touches Vanilla content, which force the "grindy" aspect of GT on people who do not want it. That and the obvious problem of people hating on Greg make it unpopular, but that doesn't prevent people from liking and even loving the "grindy" aspect of GT, which they consider a challenge. Everyone says that taking more time isn't a challenge. Why wouldn't it be one ? You could try to get your stuff set up the fastest way possible for example, this is what the FTB maps were about originally, because when you knew what to do, it was just a matter of doing it fast, nothing else, and it pretty much is the same thing for Minecraft itself. Don't overlook the time factor. And what if people don't care about challenge, but just want to spend a lot of time on their world, slowly acquiring more resources and make their base bigger and better day after day ? Do not reject people who like doing this, they exist. If mods like GT didn't have any public, they would probably dead by now. Minecraft in itself isn't really a "challenge" anyway. My point is that the fight over which is the better mod and which is a bad grindy mod really doesn't have any reason to exist in a first place. But people disregard other's view. There lies the problem, and I doubt it'll ever go away.
I see so many hostile messages around here when people try to defend their mod and opinions of challenge just for others to bash them and completely disregard how they like playing, and enforcing their view as the only one and true view. Of course if you consider your own opinion only, you'll see "unfun" mods, and "fun" mods, and they are different for everyone. This is how it is, so, and I'm talking to these people which I see all the time and often are "regulars", stop bashing others because they like some mods, and don't like some others. If the only point of your post is to tell someone how this mod sucks, or this one is awesome, or criticize their view of challenge (wtf ? the only point of that is angering the person you're talking too) just don't post altogether, your post is useless, and will only cause more tension in the community.
The only problem that people have with Greg Tech is that it touches Vanilla content, which force the "grindy" aspect of GT on people who do not want it. That and the obvious problem of people hating on Greg make it unpopular, but that doesn't prevent people from liking and even loving the "grindy" aspect of GT, which they consider a challenge. Everyone says that taking more time isn't a challenge. Why wouldn't it be one ? You could try to get your stuff set up the fastest way possible for example, this is what the FTB maps were about originally, because when you knew what to do, it was just a matter of doing it fast, nothing else, and it pretty much is the same thing for Minecraft itself. Don't overlook the time factor. And what if people don't care about challenge, but just want to spend a lot of time on their world, slowly acquiring more resources and make their base bigger and better day after day ? Do not reject people who like doing this, they exist. If mods like GT didn't have any public, they would probably dead by now. Minecraft in itself isn't really a "challenge" anyway. My point is that the fight over which is the better mod and which is a bad grindy mod really doesn't have any reason to exist in a first place. But people disregard other's view. There lies the problem, and I doubt it'll ever go away.
I see so many hostile messages around here when people try to defend their mod and opinions of challenge just for others to bash them and completely disregard how they like playing, and enforcing their view as the only one and true view. Of course if you consider your own opinion only, you'll see "unfun" mods, and "fun" mods, and they are different for everyone. This is how it is, so, and I'm talking to these people which I see all the time and often are "regulars", stop bashing others because they like some mods, and don't like some others. If the only point of your post is to tell someone how this mod sucks, or this one is awesome, or criticize their view of challenge (wtf ? the only point of that is angering the person you're talking too) just don't post altogether, your post is useless, and will only cause more tension in the community.
Last edited:
Alright, here's my opinion.
I liked GregTech, and I was sad to see it go, but I couldn't play the Unhinged pack because of my general playstyle. See, I liked GregTech because I could ignore it. I was one of those players who could spend 10-20 hours in a world and only have a wooden shack, a jetpack, and a muddy face. I loved it though. I never "ground" GT, but simply made a machine (or several) when it suited me. In fact, when making a megabuild, I'd often only have a barrel of cobble, a hopper, and an electric furnace to keep me going. All the cool stuff that GT offered gave me something to look forward to, but not like tomorrow's lunch with a friend. More like hoping that you might one day save up enough money to get a fancy new gaming setup.
The changes GT made to vanilla pissed me off, as even my slow pace turned tedious.
Now, I can no longer put in 5 hour sessions into singleplayer worlds, or enjoy the slow path. Honestly, the most fun I've had with minecraft recently has been purely vanilla. I built dye factory without any outside advice, and it felt pretty good to see that sucker run. A self-set challenge, with itself as the reward.
Now, as far as a ratio, I think that if a pack supplied all flavors of the spectrum evenly, like some other games manage to do, then we might strike on something that might quell the various groups, however temporary the peace may be.
I liked GregTech, and I was sad to see it go, but I couldn't play the Unhinged pack because of my general playstyle. See, I liked GregTech because I could ignore it. I was one of those players who could spend 10-20 hours in a world and only have a wooden shack, a jetpack, and a muddy face. I loved it though. I never "ground" GT, but simply made a machine (or several) when it suited me. In fact, when making a megabuild, I'd often only have a barrel of cobble, a hopper, and an electric furnace to keep me going. All the cool stuff that GT offered gave me something to look forward to, but not like tomorrow's lunch with a friend. More like hoping that you might one day save up enough money to get a fancy new gaming setup.
The changes GT made to vanilla pissed me off, as even my slow pace turned tedious.
Now, I can no longer put in 5 hour sessions into singleplayer worlds, or enjoy the slow path. Honestly, the most fun I've had with minecraft recently has been purely vanilla. I built dye factory without any outside advice, and it felt pretty good to see that sucker run. A self-set challenge, with itself as the reward.
Now, as far as a ratio, I think that if a pack supplied all flavors of the spectrum evenly, like some other games manage to do, then we might strike on something that might quell the various groups, however temporary the peace may be.
I saw this argument in the original topic and realy had to resist not posting (that entire discussion was derailing)! But now I can!
Lets begin by showing you this:
Right, so now that we have established that iron is renewable to the point that its worth less then ender pearls. Lets get to the next point. These IC2 hammer/wrench items need a durability for balance reasons. Why use a machine that can do something terribly slow when I can shift click entire stacks in a matter of seconds? The amount of overclocked machines, let alone the amount of power needed would be huge if you tried to match that. Another example of why the hammer needs durability: cross mod balancing. AE would take that hammer and make a very cheap and fast autocrafting system with it. Making IC2's own autocrafting system obsolete.
Now you say the tools become obsolete. Do they? Because lets be honest here, unless you got a vast power network with multiple of said tool machines with a bunch of overclockers, shift clicking in a crafting grid is going to be way faster. Now also considering that we have auto mining or even a way to get endless supply of iron and that simple 5 iron cost is just to small to matter. They add an alternative without taking annything away, isnt that a win win?
Why, oh, why are you comparing a tool with a crafting reagent? The thaumometer could be compared to the EU reader, scanning the mods unique content. Not the 80 use crafting reagent thats the hammer. I can see why you get confused though, IRL a hammer is a tool. But inside IC2 there is absolutly no use for it other then being a crafting reagent.
IMO, RNG does not belong in a tech tree. RNG can be getting 1-4 crystal from crystal ore. Or getting 0-2 bones from killing a skeleton. Thats RNG I can live with. I can always go out and get more without much trouble. But when I get a limited number of resources and RNG gets to decide if thats going to be enough or not, then I am pretty quickly done with said mechanic. Its like, Great you just filled all the ender pearls on the end portal, you now have a 50% change for it exploding. Hey there are going to be 2 more portals in your world, pretty good changes atleast 1 will work! Such a mechanic would be terrible. And is pretty much why I dont realy like Thaumcraft research all that much.
My personal favorite mod machenic in terms of difficulty/reward is Railcrafts quarried/abbyssal stone. Great for building, makes you go out and explore the world/cave systems to find more of the stuff. The amounts that you find allow for some decent size builds. But yet you always end up with a need for mooooore
My second favorite is TE2's way of making blocks. You need a decent infrastructure, but once you have it you can have lots of (mossy/cracked)stone bricks and sandstone for days. Getting stone is just so easy, just from mining alone you can get thousands of stacks of cobble wich, because you already have so much, ends up getting tossed into lava for more inventory space for actual usefull resources... And destroying a desert just to be able to build a desert themed town isnt exactly fun either. (3 cheers for 100% sandstone mountains in 1.7!).
Riiiight. Because you're seriously going to be able to get this set up before your infrastructure
Oh, and using a custom mod? Yea, not viable.For that matter, almost no one will bother with this in the first place. Come on, 32 villages? Yea, that's not going to happen before you already have alternate solutions. Hell, I'll have an EnderEnder set up LONG before I could set one of these monstrosities up.
I fail to see any 'balance' point in resource bleed.
Because it can be making things slowly while you are off conquering the world, so you come back to find them. Again, it's micro-management you don't have to handle.
Which is why it is a good thing that you don't need to.
By the time you get your AE autocrafting set up, you've been using the machines (although I wouldn't call them 'autocrafting'). You seem to be a bit confused here. AE Autocrafting requires multiple stacks of quartz, gold, and other resources. To be able to actually use the MAC requires an already established ME Network, which requires still more gold and diamonds and plenty of quartz. This is not something you can set up immediately, like you can with the new IC2-EX machine.
I don't need a vast power network with multiple of said tool machines with a bunch of overclockers. I only need one, no overclockers, running passively while I'm doing something else.
I call 'em like I see 'em. The hammer is a tool. So is the Thaumometer.
And why I don't like the machine explosion mechanic.
On here, I will agree with you. The abyssal stone geodes are a great 'windfall' but difficult to find.My personal favorite mod machenic in terms of difficulty/reward is Railcrafts quarried/abbyssal stone. Great for building, makes you go out and explore the world/cave systems to find more of the stuff. The amounts that you find allow for some decent size builds. But yet you always end up with a need for mooooore
Again, I'll agree with you here. Note that TE2 doesn't need any consumable tools to do anything, though.