Bee question to the experts
- Thread starter baw179
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Ok. One question first:
Do you have the resources for advanced Genetic Machines?
EDIT: And thank you for that, Exedra.
EDIT 2: Obviously, there are some hidden traits somewhere. When one breeds bees, say forest and meadows, and you beealyze them, you see forest-meadows breed. But hidden in there, not shown, is the common trait. Most likely, the 2x trait is hidden down there also.
Do you have the resources for advanced Genetic Machines?
EDIT: And thank you for that, Exedra.
EDIT 2: Obviously, there are some hidden traits somewhere. When one breeds bees, say forest and meadows, and you beealyze them, you see forest-meadows breed. But hidden in there, not shown, is the common trait. Most likely, the 2x trait is hidden down there also.
There are no hidden racial traits. If the beealyser doesn't show it to you it's not there. Forest/meadows bees may become common with further breeding, but the potential to mutate isn't anything "hidden".
Sorry, but I still say you're wasting your time with your current breeding direction.
Let's say you get your princess set up as a fully fertile and pure forest bee, and get matching drones to go with it. You now have to mutate it along with drones of some other species, and if they're not fully fertile too, your princess is very likely to lose its own fertility.
Even if you max out the fertility on your other breeding species first, when you cause the princess to mutate, it'll still lose its maximum fertility (as mutating causes most traits on the bee to match that of the new species, forgetting those of the old). Common bees have only 2x fertility. And you have to go through at least four mutations before you get to the fifth you're actually wanting.
Getting to each new species will indeed be easier with maximum fertility, but getting to maximum fertility by manual breeding is harder then getting the first few mutations needed for imperial bees without it (especially when you consider that one of the bees in the imperial line mutates as having max fertility anyway). And again, getting imperial bees will allow you to use the advanced genetic machines that let you simply hand out max fertility on a whim.
If you really only want industrious bees, and have absolutely no interest in beekeeping outside of that one species, then sure, go for industrious first. But if that's the case then put fertility entirely out of your mind.
Anyway, if you're still working on purifying your current forest princess then you have a choice: breed it with a forest drone (and risk getting infertile bees back, which may or may not be pure forest bees), or breed it with your wintry/forest hybrid that has maximum fertility (and risk getting wintry bees back, though at least they'll be fertile... like regular wintry bees). Some luck is involved. When manually breeding, don't get excited when a hybrid of a trait you want appears, it might not be there after the next cycle.
Sorry, but I still say you're wasting your time with your current breeding direction.
Let's say you get your princess set up as a fully fertile and pure forest bee, and get matching drones to go with it. You now have to mutate it along with drones of some other species, and if they're not fully fertile too, your princess is very likely to lose its own fertility.
Even if you max out the fertility on your other breeding species first, when you cause the princess to mutate, it'll still lose its maximum fertility (as mutating causes most traits on the bee to match that of the new species, forgetting those of the old). Common bees have only 2x fertility. And you have to go through at least four mutations before you get to the fifth you're actually wanting.
Getting to each new species will indeed be easier with maximum fertility, but getting to maximum fertility by manual breeding is harder then getting the first few mutations needed for imperial bees without it (especially when you consider that one of the bees in the imperial line mutates as having max fertility anyway). And again, getting imperial bees will allow you to use the advanced genetic machines that let you simply hand out max fertility on a whim.
If you really only want industrious bees, and have absolutely no interest in beekeeping outside of that one species, then sure, go for industrious first. But if that's the case then put fertility entirely out of your mind.
Anyway, if you're still working on purifying your current forest princess then you have a choice: breed it with a forest drone (and risk getting infertile bees back, which may or may not be pure forest bees), or breed it with your wintry/forest hybrid that has maximum fertility (and risk getting wintry bees back, though at least they'll be fertile... like regular wintry bees). Some luck is involved. When manually breeding, don't get excited when a hybrid of a trait you want appears, it might not be there after the next cycle.
RIGHT! I'm beginning to lose the will to live with these stupid bees!!!
OK, I just got another pure winter princess and then found a forest winter hybrid drone with 4x and 3x on it. I've just bred those 2 with soul frames and I've got now a forest winter hybrid princess 4x 4x, yay!But, what I do now to make this a pure forest princess with 4x 4x ? I still have quite a collection of forest winter hybrid drones : I have 1 with 4x 4x, 4 with 4x 3x, and 5 with 3x 4x. Last time I tried this I lose the forest princess and it turned back into a winter princess so I need to know how to stop that from happening and to keep it as a forest princess.
Match the forest winter princess with the 4x 4x forest winter drone. You'll have a one-in-four chance of getting the 4x/4x Forest/Forest princess you want. If you fail, try again to get that same breeding pair and save any 4x 4x forest or forest/winter drones you get.
You can see why running multiple breeding lines at once is helpful.[DOUBLEPOST=1368394278][/DOUBLEPOST]
These bees are broken.
Any two hive bees (forest, meadows, wintry, marshy, modest etc) have a chance to mutate into a common when they become a hybrid.
Ultimately, I agree with Bomb Bloke above though. It'll save you a ton of time if you just bred imperial bees and then used that to get the extra bees machines that you need to make breeding much much easier.
It's where my research has taken me. All I can conclude is that there are hidden traits. After all, how the bees will die and what they will create is calculated during the breed. Any modifying frames are calculated at the first bee tick they enter. Without soul frames, if I put in forest and meadows, I get common when they die, along with some forest and some meadow. I know that offspring is calculated first. And so, I can conclude that.
I doubt that is the case. Sure, the traits are calculated at breeding, but the mutation is calculated at death. Mutation is simply a chance for a hybrid to become something else.
True or not, it's simpler to just state that "a queen that could produce mutated offspring will most likely introduce other traits of the new species to that offspring". That is to say, if you produce a common bee out of forest/meadows bees, then you should expect 2x fertility because that's what common bees have by default. What the parents have isn't strictly relevant.
It's worth building an Apiarist Databank if you haven't already. This allows you to easily see what the "default" traits for each new species you uncover are. Bear in mind that the bees you actually GET when you complete a mutation may not match these exactly. You may, on occasion, want to purposely set yourself back a race and remutate, if you miss out on a particularly good trait the new species has the first time around - for example, cultivated bees have the potential to appear with the "fast" production speed trait, industrious with "fast" pollination, and so on.
It's worth building an Apiarist Databank if you haven't already. This allows you to easily see what the "default" traits for each new species you uncover are. Bear in mind that the bees you actually GET when you complete a mutation may not match these exactly. You may, on occasion, want to purposely set yourself back a race and remutate, if you miss out on a particularly good trait the new species has the first time around - for example, cultivated bees have the potential to appear with the "fast" production speed trait, industrious with "fast" pollination, and so on.
OK thanks guys. Enough with this wintry bee stuff for now then. I'll aim for some imperials first. I use the nessirogaming bee wiki a lot - it's a great help. I started out with the databank for them but it doesn't have enough space so I now use the indexer to store them all. I wish there was a better storage "block" for them as the indexer has a really bad GUI. It doesn't sort them into alphabetical order, you can't search for them by typing and it gets stupidly laggy when you have more than a few hundred bee spaces occupied.
hint: start with meadows/forest, winter bees will be limited & take a lot of work with out eb machines to get them to a normal biome, as I mentioned start in a plains if you can it gives more options "wider range" & never lose faith, hint2 dont keep 1000s of useless bees, use them for dna or trash/recycle, indexer can be a lag machine, & for any one thats wondering, there are some major issues with Genpool & some eb machines in 1.5.1, fixed in latested pushed version last night I believe but have not tested, keep eb machines on there own power line, disconnect or wrench cell when not using helps.
Beware the indexer: It encourages you to store all your bees and causes crashes if you put too many in. Again, with each new species you uncover, purify them until all the drones produced with each cycle stack, and THROW AWAY all the others. You should eventually end up with a princess and a stack of drones, and with those you can replicate the species quickly and easily - plus they only take up two storage slots.
Putting aside storage, the other downside to keeping all your drones is that most of them will be rubbish. You'll spend too long sifting through the silt for those few drones that're actually useful.
Putting aside storage, the other downside to keeping all your drones is that most of them will be rubbish. You'll spend too long sifting through the silt for those few drones that're actually useful.
don't throw them away, genepool em.
Thanks once again guys, I've "liked" you all for your awesome help and tutoring. I've set up a separate line now just for breeding pures. I've got running: tropical, water, marbled, noble, valiant, marshy, meadows, rocky and commons. It's all automated with apiary pipes, centrifuge for the combs and storage for all the other bits so I should have a nice amount of pure drones waiting for me tomorrow . Will have to find a fresh forest princess as I lost that with all the wintry breeding, then tomorrow I'm going to use my non-automated breeding line and see if I can get some imperials. I've actually got 3 majestic cultivated hybrid drones and 1 majestic common hybrid drone already, but no princesses with majestic trait . I've got 2 pure noble princesses and a crap ton of pure noble drones so maybe luck might be on my side tomorrow?
I've set up a separate line now just for breeding pures. I've got running: tropical, water, marbled, noble, valiant, marshy, meadows, rocky and commons. It's all automated with apiary pipes, centrifuge for the combs and storage for all the other bits so I should have a nice amount of pure drones waiting for me tomorrow . Will have to find a fresh forest princess as I lost that with all the wintry breeding, then tomorrow I'm going to use my non-automated breeding line and see if I can get some imperials. I've actually got 3 majestic cultivated hybrid drones and 1 majestic common hybrid drone already, but no princesses with majestic trait . I've got 2 pure noble princesses and a crap ton of pure noble drones so maybe luck might be on my side tomorrow? Seriously, thats wrong. The queen does not contain any mutations or other hidden traits. It contains only the genomes from both princess and drone. Of course, only the princess genomes of the queen are shown in the beealyzer, but its clear that the drone genomes have to be stored there as well, isn't it? Everything else like mutations and the mixed traits for each of the offspring bees is calculated only when the queen dies, for each offspring independently. It simply chooses for each property one trait from the princess and one trait from the drone that were bred into the queen. If a mutation occurs on either side, it overrides the corresponding trait with the default trait of the mutated species.
@baw179: For refining traits, you should not use soul frames. They increase the chance of your bee mutating to a new species, and in this case your precious trait gets replaced by the default trait of the new species (like 2x fertility for common). This is something you do not want. To keep the mutation chance low, use no frames or chocolate frames, which simply reduce the bee lifespan without increasing the mutation chance.
Thanks once again guys, I've "liked" you all for your awesome help and tutoring.
We are happy to help each other here, in a week or two you may well be in a position to help some one with the same problems you had, keep the faith when you get the hang of it, its really not that hard just logic most of it, then its all about how to setup automated systems or production lines
.These bees are broken.
Because mutations reset traits. This is why there really is no use to try and get good fertility in through breeding. You only want to do that AFTER you get the mutations you need.[DOUBLEPOST=1368452858][/DOUBLEPOST]
Well, kinda. The stuff she gets from the drone is 'hidden' untill she dies and you get the offspring. You also can't change it through an inoculator; you only modify the stuff the queen has.
So I'm back playing with my bees again. I've just got a majestic cultivated hybrid princess and a matching drone. I've majestic on the active trait for both, so do I still need to use the soul frames to try to get them to mutate them to pures, or should I run them without? Only one step away from the imperials now!
I've just got a majestic cultivated hybrid princess and a matching drone. I've majestic on the active trait for both, so do I still need to use the soul frames to try to get them to mutate them to pures, or should I run them without? Only one step away from the imperials now!