Balance or Tedium

[Pyure]

That's nice, but it also isn't relevant to the comment quoted. The question was specifically about tedium and difficulty, not how Gtech adds complexity. Try to force me to do something manually, and I will get bored. Add in artificial difficulty by adding in dozens of steps in your manual process, and I will yawn and walk away. Has zero to do with processes that can be automated.

That's nice, but a thing doesn't require your comprehension to be relevant. Now that we've each had a chance to play reddit on the ftb forum, let's step back and discuss.

You said tedium != difficulty, and all things being equal, I agree with you. The key point is that this doesn't mean that very tedious mods cannot be fun by way of difficulty. Tossing in rhetoric about artificial difficulty isn't helpful: Using your definition, I can express every single tech mod ever in terms of how many steps it takes to accomplish something, and suddenly there's no such thing as a difficult mod.

If tedium as an obstacle to be overcome doesn't appeal to your sense of difficulty: fantastic, whatever suits you. Yawn and walk away. I'm sure I pass out from boredom with mods you find difficult too.

But it appeals to many players. In the right hands, tedium can be a strong weapon in the game developers arsenal, and without it we'd end up with a ton of Thermal Expansions and no GregTechs, and nothing "difficult" for me to do in Minecraft.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Tedium and difficulty/balance are not related.

Tedium is when an activity isn't mentally stimulating; which [in gaming] can be achieved at any difficulty level.

Easy things can be just a tedious as hard.​

 

[HeilMewTwo]

That's nice, but a thing doesn't require your comprehension to be relevant. Now that we've each had a chance to play reddit on the ftb forum, let's step back and discuss.

Okay Pyure, you have been waaaaaay too condescending lately.

 

[Pyure]

Okay Pyure, you have been waaaaaay too condescending lately.

Oh.

Sorry Shneekey. Thanks HMT.

 

[malicious_bloke]

Oh.

Sorry Shneekey. Thanks HMT.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh.

Sorry Shneekey. Thanks HMT.

No problem.

Basically, my issue specifically lies when there was a process that had needless unnecessary steps added to it to 'prolong the early game', and then doesn't give you a way to automate that process. For example, IC2-EX would not be an example, because while it added shears and hammers (which I still saw as ridiculously silly and pointless resource bleed and complexity for the sake of complexity and resource bleed), it at least adds the machine to automate it later.

Let me phrase this another way: using manual time sink as a balancing point is a Bad Idea. It's specifically using manual time sink as a balancing point I object to. I don't have a problem with Gtech, which is why I was rather irate when you started building your gregorious strawman. Gtech gives you ways to automate it, even if it is a bit exceedingly complex.

I actually quite enjoy TerraFirmaCraft, because it may be complex but it is anything but tedious. My only problem with TFC is you can get 'land screwed' and not be able to access certain early-game materials that are necessary to progress to the point where you can safely explore for them. Fortunately, that's a simple config edit on surface copper.

Enjoying mods like TFC or Gtech doesn't make you more 'hardcore', nor does it make you 'leet', it just means you have a different playstyle. With my 60+ hour workweek, and a wife and kid to take care of, I simply don't have the hours in the day to put into something like that. So trying to make me manually hand-jive something over and over with no ability to automate it? Yea... no thanks. I don't have two hours to devote to making my first ingot, I've got better things to do with my time. But, some people might enjoy it. Which is also fine.

There Is No One True Playstyle.

Maybe I should make a sign that says 'no riding high horses without your jodhpurs'.

 

[giesergast]

in my opinion/ point of view the good kind of complicated is somthing like computercraft or even botania (have not played with it just saw it on DW series) i think we can all agree these mods take time and are complex but not becuase you have to do a sh*t ton of menial stuff. in these mods you have to do interesting stuff take take some thought and are just kinda awesome.

also >dance

 

[Pyure]

No problem.

Basically, my issue specifically lies when there was a process that had needless unnecessary steps added to it to 'prolong the early game', and then doesn't give you a way to automate that process. For example, IC2-EX would not be an example, because while it added shears and hammers (which I still saw as ridiculously silly and pointless resource bleed and complexity for the sake of complexity and resource bleed), it at least adds the machine to automate it later.

Let me phrase this another way: using manual time sink as a balancing point is a Bad Idea. It's specifically using manual time sink as a balancing point I object to. I don't have a problem with Gtech, which is why I was rather irate when you started building your gregorious strawman. Gtech gives you ways to automate it, even if it is a bit exceedingly complex.

I actually quite enjoy TerraFirmaCraft, because it may be complex but it is anything but tedious. My only problem with TFC is you can get 'land screwed' and not be able to access certain early-game materials that are necessary to progress to the point where you can safely explore for them. Fortunately, that's a simple config edit on surface copper.

Enjoying mods like TFC or Gtech doesn't make you more 'hardcore', nor does it make you 'leet', it just means you have a different playstyle. With my 60+ hour workweek, and a wife and kid to take care of, I simply don't have the hours in the day to put into something like that. So trying to make me manually hand-jive something over and over with no ability to automate it? Yea... no thanks. I don't have two hours to devote to making my first ingot, I've got better things to do with my time. But, some people might enjoy it. Which is also fine.

There Is No One True Playstyle.

Maybe I should make a sign that says 'no riding high horses without your jodhpurs'.

Makes sense, I'm glad you allow for tedium in mods that provide anti-tedium mechanisms.

Can you think offhand of a mod that creates tedium without any in-game means to mitigate it?

Personally I find the hard-mode TC4 research stuff to fit that bill. I hate it. I just wanna get shit done and there's no in-game way for me to get to a point where I don't have to do it anymore. But the thing is I totally respect that a lot of people really love the mini-game.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Makes sense, I'm glad you allow for tedium in mods that provide anti-tedium mechanisms.

Can you think offhand of a mod that creates tedium without any in-game means to mitigate it?

Personally I find the hard-mode TC4 research stuff to fit that bill. I hate it. I just wanna get shit done and there's no in-game way for me to get to a point where I don't have to do it anymore. But the thing is I totally respect that a lot of people really love the mini-game.

The TC4 research mechanic can quite easily fall in that category, depending on the mode you use. The 'just pay it all' method has its own level of tedium, though. It almost always costs more to just buy it than to play the minigame. Which means you need to go out and play Research All The Things or find some other way of getting a bunch of research.

I'd also throw in RotaryCraft and Rekia's other mods, but I haven't played it enough to make that sort of judgement call definitively.

Those are the only ones I'd really call out to my immediate mind. Well, BTW, but that's BTW.

Also, I think we have a different definition of 'tedium'. If you have a means of anti-tedium, it wasn't tedium in the first place, in my book.

The only part of TFC that I would really call tedious would be finding the right terrain for a specific necessary resource. You need Copper to get going, but you're also going to need Tin or Zinc and Bismuth to advance into Bronze which is necessary to get to Iron. Zinc is only found in Metamorphic, whereas Copper is only found in Igneous Extrusive. You can cover dozens of kilometers before you find the right type of rock for the mineral you're looking for.

in my opinion/ point of view the good kind of complicated is somthing like computercraft or even botania (have not played with it just saw it on DW series) i think we can all agree these mods take time and are complex but not becuase you have to do a sh*t ton of menial stuff. in these mods you have to do interesting stuff take take some thought and are just kinda awesome.

also >dance

How is Computercraft in any way complicated? The recipes are rediculously cheap and simple, and ANYONE can get pastebein to program it.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

I've seen quite a few players whinge about Railcraft and Steve's Carts being tedious- due to the long waiting/processing times. Though its not a process you need to sit and watch- leave it running and get on with other things; you don't sit there watching wheat grow or ores smelt right?

Can you think offhand of a mod that creates tedium without any in-game means to mitigate it?

Bee Breeding; can be semi automated though it requires a lot of manual intervention. There is a lot of excitement and forward planning to keep it interesting, but it does get a bit stale when working up to diamond/plat/radioactive bees.

Also Tinkers Construct- adding modifiers 1 at a time rather than doing the whole stack in one click.

 

[RavynousHunter]

Nah, I wouldn't throw Reika's mods into the tedium category. The closest one I can think of that might fit would be ChromatiCraft, but its actually good for me since I often find myself victim of my own natural wanderlust, and it rewards that kinda stuff. RotaryCraft doesn't make things easy on you, but if you've got a bit of cleverness locked away in your noggin, you can go a long way in a decent amount of time. It might be a lil tedious starting up, but once you get going, it starts paying for itself quite readily.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Reika's mods are geared towards engineering design more than anything; without a doubt it could very frustrating when you can't figure something and it explodes, but I can't see it getting tedious.

 

[twisto51]

I used to think GT was mostly tedium but after sticking with it it doesn't feel that way. Everything else feels too easy. Getting out of the bronze age is an accomplishment, getting your plate bender and wiremill going is practically orgasmic after having to "waste" so many materials with hammers/wirecutters.

Prospecting all over the map for those critical ores is a lot more fun than mindlessly drift mining a couple chunks on day 1 or 2 for all the ores you ever need to mine manually. I like exploring anyway and with GT5 oregen exploring is just as important as anything else. I don't feel like I'm shirking my duties back at the base when I'm out on an adventure.

I also like that the complexity of ore processing/byproducts means there isn't a default process for all the ores. You can't just pulverize and smelt every metal. You have to pick a desired end product and then figure out which ores will get you there at your current tech level, if possible. An example of that is deciding on your first batteries, sodium or lithium and how you're going to get the materials for them.

Most of the recipes are complex in GT but they're complex for a reason. You're not just building a magic block, you're building various machine components that could conceivably be part of that magic block. The basic assembling machine is a royal pain in the ass but it is a royal pain in the ass that makes sense when you look at the parts.

I prefer hardcore in packs actively trying to kill the player but when I do play a kitchen sink pack nowadays I want GT in it.