Azanor presents Thaumcraft 4.1 Research

[unknown zombie]

I like the way research works in the current version, but then again I'm still only doing it for the first time. I can see how doing it again for new saves would feel tedious.

Having said that, I do also like how the new mini-game appears to play. I'll probably play on hard mode because I like the idea of having to actually study & research every recipe.

I will, however, turn off the aspect caps. I don't like that because I tend to spend lengthy periods out caving & scanning, then come back to my base to do a bunch of research at once.

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[Yusunoha]

youtube? check. cup of tea? check. comfy chair? check.

*clicks play button*

 

[Golrith]

Hmm, need to watch the video properly, but initially the new research mechanic looks even more tedius then before.

I agree about the max aspect cap. I haven't really started TC4 (done 3 puzzles, got bored) but do have over 400 metallum available for research just by scanning my base.

 

[MrCervelo]

I think that it's a good improvement. The ability to pick and choose what you want to research next is a great update, and this will make re-runs through the research more enjoyable. I hate trying to guess my way through what is the right aspect to get a research started, and then getting the wrong research.

In the existing system, having to turn on and off (at first) or then moving runes one at a time hoping that it wasn't going to turn off was a pain, if it was for an aspect that you had a lot of, then it wasn't too bad, but for something rare, then it was a real PITA.

For the cap on research points, I suspect that it's something that he'll play with, you won't need as many points in each aspect as you do currently, and it would appear that you can use the component aspect in the research (I assume that how's he was able to use Beastia in the Golem research, Humanus is Beastia and Cognito). The new game will actually require a bit of thought, about the hardest thing with the current system is working out the best path to take, this will take a bit o practice to get right and I can see that it's something that I would enjoy trying to do with the least number of aspects, but it will still be doable by people who aren't interested in getting it perfect (as Azanor showed in his vid).

The duplication of research is also good, as it's a way of giving someone else the research, but I do have one question. Is it possible to duplicate a research after you've read it? I don't recall him actually reading a research in the video. If you can only make a copy prior to reading, then I can see people duplicating a research before reading it if they're on a multiplayer server "just in case".

I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Cronos988]

Interesting but ultimately making things harder. The one thing that will annoy me the most will be the 50 point cap. I like to do all my scanning in the beginning and then never have to do it again. The only reason people complained about research in the past is that they liked instant gratification and wanted to get their items immediately.

That strikes me as overly judgemental and generalized. Some people like guessing games (like doodle god), others don't. For some people, this way of thinking is just not intuitive, which has made and still makes (as of 4.0) Thaumcraft research a clickfest, trying to figure out what combines and what the research might need. I feel the new minigame looks quite good, as it isn't based on guesswork and allows a certain amount of creativity in finding the right solution. Might be the best Thaumcraft research system yet.

 

[Niels Henriksen]

I cant wait to get TC4.1 I love that mod.. I love it so much so my next worldreset will be without machines and only magic

 

[cannajan]

I like that I will be able to pick what I want to research, no more wasting aspects on things I have no intention of making. I dont mind the current mini game since I learnt to identify the runes that only have 2 or 3 copies and move them around before using up any aspects by turning them on, now research only costs 1 of each aspect unless I make a silly mistake.
I like that the parchment has nice hexagonal shapes to put aspects in
I like easy mode! great for repeats even if you want to do it the 'right' way the first time
Love having choices!

 

[CascadingDragon]

New minigame looks 10x better then the last version. Definitely like what I see.

 

[Golrith]

Now that I've been able to watch it properly, this is a much better system. Plus everything is configurable, which is excellent.
With so many addon mods to Thaumcraft 4, these changes allow you to focus on what you need, instead of luck.

 

[Loufmier]

well, i'm pretty happy how it turned out.
however i'm not really happy about 50 points soft cap.

 

[DrowElf]

That strikes me as overly judgemental and generalized. Some people like guessing games (like doodle god), others don't. For some people, this way of thinking is just not intuitive, which has made and still makes (as of 4.0) Thaumcraft research a clickfest, trying to figure out what combines and what the research might need. I feel the new minigame looks quite good, as it isn't based on guesswork and allows a certain amount of creativity in finding the right solution. Might be the best Thaumcraft research system yet.

I actually like the new system and agree that it is the best yet. I was commenting on the fact that it is the opposite of what many people asked, being more difficult by requiring memorization of every component of every aspect, and will ultimately result in many more complaints

 

[Loufmier]

I actually like the new system and agree that it is the best yet. I was commenting on the fact that it is the opposite of what many people asked, being more difficult by requiring memorization of every component of every aspect, and will ultimately result in many more complaints

from what i understand memorizing isn't required but encouraged, because compound aspects can substitute for more basic ones if you you don't have enough.
it would be pretty lame if that knowledge was actually required indeed.

 

[unknown zombie]

I would say that memorizing the compound aspects is required; unless, of course, you like to escape out of the research table every few seconds to open your Thaumonomicon and click around in it to look at them.

I know I sure don't.

It would be nice if there were a button on the research table to open a window and turn to that page of your Thaumonomicon, like someone previously mentioned.

 

[snooder]

I really like the new changes. It's taken away a lot of the randomness that was really frustrating about both TC3 and TC4 research to date. For example, anyone else notice that with the new research system there's no longer any "impossible" research? There are more or less efficient paths, but ultimately you can brute force your way into research if you have to.

On the aspect capping, I'll have to see how that plays out. Personally, I think having a cap is good because it encourages players to research earlier instead of having the most efficient way to play involve not even engaging the research mechanic until weeks into the game. However, I'm not so sure about having the cap that low on primal aspects. I can anticipate running out of some rare compound aspect and blowing most of your stash of primals trying to work back up to it. But then we'll have to see how it interacts with the bookcase and crystal clusters.

 

[DREVL]

Does anyone know if stupid victus scanning is still stupid?

 

[Loufmier]

On the aspect capping, I'll have to see how that plays out. Personally, I think having a cap is good because it encourages players to research earlier instead of having the most efficient way to play involve not even engaging the research mechanic until weeks into the game.

what is so bad about hoarding points before starting research?

 

[snooder]

what is so bad about hoarding points before starting research?

Research is part of playing the mod. If you aren't doing research, you aren't playing the mod. Encouraging people to *not* play the thing you want them to play is generally not good game design.

The problem with it is that you end up skipping a lot of the early bits of thaumcraft. For example, why would you bother making a pickaxe of the core if by the time you get that researched, you already have a quarry set up and a maxed out TiC pick.

There's nothing wrong with waiting to research if you want to, or that's your personally preferred style. But it shouldn't be almost required the way it has been for TC4.

 

[Loufmier]

Research is part of playing the mod. If you aren't doing research, you aren't playing the mod. Encouraging people to *not* play the thing you want them to play is generally not good game design.

There's nothing wrong with waiting to research if you want to, or that's your personally preferred style. But it shouldn't be almost required the way it has been for TC4.

how is that even relevant?

there is no such requirement in TC4. people hoard point before going into research because they don't want their research process interrupted with scancraft. it's the same approach as with mining: you want to mine as much ore as possible per trip so you won't run out of resources in near future.

 

[Skyqula]

Research is part of playing the mod. If you aren't doing research, you aren't playing the mod. Encouraging people to *not* play the thing you want them to play is generally not good game design.

The problem with it is that you end up skipping a lot of the early bits of thaumcraft. For example, why would you bother making a pickaxe of the core if by the time you get that researched, you already have a quarry set up and a maxed out TiC pick.

Thaumcraft is a mod to an already existing game. This addon is not the primary thing your doing when playing. Especially when there are multiple mods involved. But even without other mods there are alot of thing you could do while casually scanning things for research points (mining, building, exploring, enchanting, farming, brewing). Enforcing a cap or drastic droppoff point becomes punishing. Because you practicly force the best way to play that mod is the do research when the mod developor want the players to do research. Instead, if the goal is to have players do frequent research you could add rewards. Like starting a research when you have only a maximum of 50/40/30/20/10 of anny aspect you get 1/2/3/4/5 free aspects filled in on the research table.

Now I completly understand why games go with punishment routes. They are easy to come up with and implement. Adding a rewarding and engaging system is hard and requires actual skill.

There's nothing wrong with waiting to research if you want to, or that's your personally preferred style. But it shouldn't be almost required the way it has been for TC4.

In the current TC4.05 research system you have to gues whats needed to get something. And there is no way to get hints or gues most if not all the aspects involved in a certain research (unless you have done a similar research). The only real way to deal with this is brute force it (stack points, spend till you get it). Not alot of people like that and inturn use cheat sheets.

This new system is a great improvement over that. Yet still not perfect. There is, however, no gain over stacking point or not in the new research iteration. The flaw in the new iteration is the need to remember nearly all aspects (50+)(Burden of knowledge, a form of bad game design) or in turn constantly check the thaumonomicon (tedious, bad game design). IMO, the new easymode is alot more interesting as far as game mechanics go. Yeah, you still gotta check for aspects. But you wont be spending nearly as much time looking them up and combining them. Let alone actually feel a need to remember all of it.

 

[Loufmier]

Thaumcraft is an addon to an already existing game. This addon is not the primary thing your doing when playing.

it's not an addon its a mod.