AE2 Discussion

[WuffleFluffy]

Well, putting that last paragraph behind me, what are your thoughts?

I've watched part 1 of DireWolf's mod spotlight.

I'm using AE1 at the moment and absolutely love this mod so far, so was very interested in the preview of AE2

Things I like:

• I like the flat monitors
• I like being able to grow crystals, that looks like an interesting idea
• I like the ability to put things onto the cables to turn things on and off

Things I don't like:

• Inability to craft engineering presses for CPU crafting, personally I am not too sure about having to rely on what is essentially good luck to be able to get all the designs for the CPU's which are integral to the workings of this mod.
• Asteroids, not keen on this concept, if the material the asteroids consists of is needed to craft AE items, then I would just make this another type of ore / rock that players will need to go dig up. In a single player world or a server with only a few players.. once everyone has their engineering presses, all of the other asteroids generated in all chunks going forward could almost be considered simply 'trash fodder'.

Things I am unsure of:

• The whole thing with 'channels' confuses me, to me this looks like introducing a
  level of complexity for the sake of complexity, unless there are issues with ME cables
  that I am ignorant of (are new cables more server friendly?)
• Multiblock structure for the ME controllers? With a large ME network it looks like we will
  need a big pile of ME controllers in one place.. or will we need to have something like a
  subnetwork with their own ME controllers? More info would be nice.

Suggestions:

• Enhancement to P2P, ability to transport RF power would be lovely
• Some mechanism to be able to see the P2P connections to and from a given block
• An ability to upgrade ME Interface blocks to have more recipes programmed into them
• An ability to have an export bus keep a number of items in a container (ie, keep 20 of
  item 'x' in this container), same way as a logistics supplier pipe can
• Make the engineering presses craft-able, but make them require a serious investment in resources as they are a very powerful item.
• How about adding a durability to the engineering presses? Once crafted the engineering press is good for say.. 20 imprints before it needs replacing?

Thanks for reading my feedback, I hope mod author(s) take all feedback in the spirit in which it is given.

-Wuffle

 

[trajing]

Each face can handle 32 channels and you can have a LOT of faces. People seem to not realize the controler is a multiblock. (can't remember if Dire mentioned that). Also I think a lot of people are forgetting about p2p, which I am pretty sure wasn't mentioned in the spotlight. You can have an absolutely absurd number of channels. More than any base I've ever built would need and I have built some ridiculous bases. Over 10,000 channels in one network. That is a lot of chest and buses!

Additionally subnetworks are now super easy. They could not possibly be any easier IMO. They are far, far, .... FAR more powerful than in AE1 and they were crazy powerful (and rarely ever used) in AE1

I highly suggest anyone concerned with AE2 play it and get an understanding of it before judging it off one part of a spotlight. There is a lot more to AE2 than he showed in part 1.

This is not at all like the IC2 nerf. The possibilities of what can be done in AE2 far exceed AE1. It is a huge buff, IMO in that you can now do some truly epic new things and not bring your server/computer to its knees in the process. The IC2 nerf, didn't add much to the actual game other than just complicating things. That isn't the case with AE2. AE2 adds lots of new things, and many many more possibilities to what you can do.

Yes, I knew that it was a multiblock. My problem is, I'm the type of guy who likes inventory access anywhere in my base. I have huge bases so wireless access points wouldn't work. But don't worry. I wasn't sure how common they are and, if you know this, Jeb's law. No matter how small or big of a change you make, people are going to complain. Also, from the spotlight, it looks as hard as obsidian. That may annoy some people while making their basement.

 

[Hyperme]

And like any world gen in Minecraft it is basically infinite. I will start worrying about world gen in a mod when Kurt reaches the Far Lands. (No time soon)

Unfortunately, my time is not infinite, and neither is my patience. Once you have more than half of the presses, the chance of finding a new press will be lower than the chance of finding a duplicate. Obviously, you could solve this by being able to craft any two presses and some materials into a specific press, but that sounds like sensible game design, and we can't have that! Generally, restricting progress based on randomness then giving the player no way to influence that randomness (coughBeescough) is bad design. I could write a bunch of stuff about player agency or Kingdom of Loathing but it's unlikely to lead to positive change, because Minecraft modding.

 

[Bevo]

Yes, I knew that it was a multiblock. My problem is, I'm the type of guy who likes inventory access anywhere in my base. I have huge bases so wireless access points wouldn't work. But don't worry. I wasn't sure how common they are and, if you know this, Jeb's law. No matter how small or big of a change you make, people are going to complain. Also, from the spotlight, it looks as hard as obsidian. That may annoy some people while making their basement.

Bases covering large areas/distances aren't an issue. Try out P2P Tunnels. You won't need like 20 dense cables going over there. Just do P2P. Place one on a controler face and it can output 32 channels over any number of tunnels you place in any other areas of your base. You can do that over and over again to have one line that won't need to use channels (just power) going to far off parts of your base and put a bunch of P2P over there and you will be good to go with however many channels you want. It is stuff like this that the spotlight has yet to show that really disappointed me that people would judge a mod not by playing it but one part of a 3 part spotlight. (not saying you, but see below quote)

Unfortunately, my time is not infinite, and neither is my patience. Once you have more than half of the presses, the chance of finding a new press will be lower than the chance of finding a duplicate. Obviously, you could solve this by being able to craft any two presses and some materials into a specific press, but that sounds like sensible game design, and we can't have that! Generally, restricting progress based on randomness then giving the player no way to influence that randomness (coughBeescough) is bad design. I could write a bunch of stuff about player agency or Kingdom of Loathing but it's unlikely to lead to positive change, because Minecraft modding.

Mind sharing how much time you have invested so far looking for presses? Because they are far easier than other mods like Thaumcraft's nodes. Oh, and once you find one, you never have to find it again. But if you've played the mod I'm sure you know that.

 

[trajing]

Honestly I never had much of a use for p2p because most of my stuff is local, and I imported all my stuff into the network. I must say that the new channel feature will be an interesting design choice. Previously you could spam interfaces with no penalty, except for a small amount of energy. Now you have to take channels into account.

 

[WuffleFluffy]

Mind sharing how much time you have invested so far looking for presses? Because they are far easier than other mods like Thaumcraft's nodes. Oh, and once you find one, you never have to find it again. But if you've played the mod I'm sure you know that.

From what I am seeing here and elsewhere this is the No.1 issue that many people are raising with these changes, and the views seem to be extremely polarized.

To me, the time issue is of importance, but there's a deeper problem here with the whole 'go find a meteor, dig it up and hope for good luck' other than time/effort.

The time/effort problem could technically be solved by setting up a 64 x 64 Ender Quarry, several chunks will be scanned and eventually.. with enough Quarry operations you'll almost be guaranteed to locate your engineering prints and a mountain load of that new type of rock.

To me, the REAL ongoing issue is that the world will have endless meteorites (which are very large) being generated in perpetuity whenever new world areas are generated that will effectively serve no purpose.

A more elegant solution would be to simply make the engineering prints craft-able, but require an expensive recipe and then have the engineering print have a durability, make it use diamonds, obsidian, quarts dusts, fluix stuff and so forth... maybe even have a machine block that does nothing except craft the engineering prints. Have the meteorite ore a new type of ore/rock that you have to go find.

To me, this achieves the mod authors desire (to make players have to go out and explore/mine) to require a bit more 'effort' required to really get into the mod, in fact.. by having durability on the engineering print, you ensure that continual expansion of the AE network will require a significant level of resource investment above and beyond that required for the machines/cables.

Bottom line, forcing players to spend countless hours hoping for random numbers to roll in their favour just so that they can use the mod is counter productive...

 

[Bevo]

From what I am seeing here and elsewhere this is the No.1 issue that many people are raising with these changes, and the views seem to be extremely polarized.

To me, the time issue is of importance, but there's a deeper problem here with the whole 'go find a meteor, dig it up and hope for good luck' other than time/effort.

The time/effort problem could technically be solved by setting up a 64 x 64 Ender Quarry, several chunks will be scanned and eventually.. with enough Quarry operations you'll almost be guaranteed to locate your engineering prints and a mountain load of that new type of rock.

You will find the presses long before you can make an Ender Quarry. Like way long before you can make one. Just make a compass and willingness to leave the base for a bit of exploring.

 

[WuffleFluffy]

You will find the presses long before you can make an Ender Quarry. Like way long before you can make one.

That may indeed be true, but it is dependent on luck. That's the core of what I think many people are objecting to. The mod author has made a decision to 'gate' the ability to craft specific blocks within the mod behind what is essentially an 'AE Lottery'... get lucky, and you can craft what you need.. if not.. back to the hunt for yet another meteor and another roll of the dice...

There will be some players who are happy with this, but I suspect that the majority of players will not be very happy with this change at all.

 

[Cptqrk]

Sooooo, I just started making my parts for an AE network, was just about to start making some drives. Am I screwed? Will this update make me waste my certis quarts if I continue to build my network?

 

[CascadingDragon]

That may indeed be true, but it is dependent on luck. That's the core of what I think many people are objecting to. The mod author has made a decision to 'gate' the ability to craft specific blocks within the mod behind what is essentially an 'AE Lottery'... get lucky, and you can craft what you need.. if not.. back to the hunt for yet another meteor and another roll of the dice...

There will be some players who are happy with this, but I suspect that the majority of players will not be very happy with this change at all.

I'm pretty sure every chest will have a press in it, or is heavily weighted towards it (from my few worlds I've created). Please go and try in a test SSP world before you bash it.

 

[Dreossk]

Well, it's rare but it seems we're just gonna have to ignore this new version.

 

[ThatOneSlowking]

Just want to say, TC Nodes are a joke compared to presses. When someone like me with terrible luck does not feel like finding anymore meteors, I can and WILL just cheat in the last couple of presses

 

[Golrith]

The whole meteor thing just seems out of place within the mod.

Do we need another type of rock? No.
Do we need uncraftable vital components to get started with the mod? No.

Personally, I'd be more inclined to disable the meteors (if available), and use another mod to change/make recipes.


I'm a bit so/so on the channels. Seems to be a level of complexity for no real reason.

 

[WuffleFluffy]

I'm pretty sure every chest will have a press in it, or is heavily weighted towards it (from my few worlds I've created). Please go and try in a test SSP world before you bash it.

With all due respect, this is not a case of 'bashing it'. I just think that the approach taken of relying on the luck of random number generation to get the specific engineering press you need from a chest is a poor mechanic.

I'm not having a go at the mod author, I am simply providing feedback, overall I think that AE2 looks very interesting.

At the risk of sounding like I am merely repeating myself, this ''AE Lottery" issue is compounded by the fact that once you have the presses you need, you will never seek out another meteor (Unless you just need that new type of rock) again.

This to me is the bigger issue, a significant world-generation change for very little return/use.

The mod author has also made another rod for his own back... have a think about this...

Let's assume that AE2 comes with four (4) engineering presses. You start with a 25% probability of getting a press you haven't already got at your first meteor.

Then, for every meteor you find afterwards you have a 25% probability of getting a duplicate.

Once you get your second press, at your next meteor you now have a 50% chance of getting a duplicate press.

Once you eventually get the third press, your chance for getting a useless duplicate goes up to 75%! This will drastically drag out the length of time it will take to be able to do most things with AE...

Now, lets assume you press on and get all four.. Great!

What happens that of AE2 gets a big update that adds another one more engineering press?

First of all, you need to go out into never before generated regions so that world-gen is forced to create new chunks.. on a well populated server this could be a challenge in it's own right.

But even then, at your first meteor since the new presses were added.. you have an 80% chance of finding a useless duplicate, for every single meteor you encounter.

To me, this is a poor mechanic, it does not enhance the mod, it adds a rather fruitless 'Lottery mechanic' which will only frustrate people, the frustration arises because the things made by the presses are essential to the core functionality of the AE2 mod.

Make no mistake, the concept of this engineering press used in a machine to craft processors in a new machine is a novel and interesting idea! I have already posted my alternative to relying on dumb luck to find the engineering presses.

The whole 'meteor' concept is ... interesting, but i'm afraid that it won't pan out well with the player base, especially when this is the only way to make an item that the mod depends on for core functionality.

Now, if there was some truly.. utterly exotic capability within AE2 (like .. a chip which would allow you to store the equivalent of a DSU on a drive) then .. maybe I could see this being an optional choice presented to the player.
"If you want to... store 5 billion items on a drive, then you'll need some unbelievium, only found in rare asteroids buried deep within the overworld"... that would probably not generate any angst at all.

 

[Padfoote]

Sooooo, I just started making my parts for an AE network, was just about to start making some drives. Am I screwed? Will this update make me waste my certis quarts if I continue to build my network?

I highly doubt your 1.6.4 world will survive the change to 1.7. Even if it does, don't worry about it and keep expanding your current system.

 

[casilleroatr]

Just want to say, TC Nodes are a joke compared to presses. When someone like me with terrible luck does not feel like finding anymore meteors, I can and WILL just cheat in the last couple of presses

I have exactly the same attitude. The pack I play has a Thaumcraft addon (advanced thaumaturgy I think?) which adds quite a bit of content that I have not touched. Despite that it is indispensable for me because it adds a creative node that contains 100 of each aspect point and never runs out. I would not play thaumcraft for more than an hour or two without it (which would be a shame because I have grown to love the rest of the mod).

That said, I don't wish to criticise mod devs who use a modest amount of RNG in their game design, its just sometimes I like to work around it for the sake of convenience (at least in single player). Kudos to algorithm for adding a non-cheaty in game way of mitigating the RNG with the compass though.

I haven't seen any of the new spotlights, although I did see a couple of Bevo's early videos. I don't know much about the mod but I am looking forward to experimenting with putting together an AE network in 1.7. Currently, an AE network is something that I enjoy having but I don't really enjoy building. The added complexity and variety looks set to change that for me.

 

[NMDanny]

I'm not sure how I feel about the entire update, while the new visuals and small blocks are nice, the update doesn't really add new features besides making it more tedious to craft and set up the network. I don't think that the mod needs more balancing, it already requires a large amount of materials and energy to sustain itself.

Seeing as this is some sort of remake of AE1, hopefully the revised autocrafting will be more reliable and some new options will be added.

 

[Bagman817]

I like a lot of the things I've seen. Easy sub-networks, but complex large builds make sense, and sound interesting. Love the flat monitor, and the new 'dark cable' replacement.

Things I don't like: MOAR worldgen. Seriously, we have too much already, not to mention these meteors appear to be huge, which means no other ores are generating there. Also, the requirement of dungeon loot to even get started is just silly, but I guess you can just cheat them in *shrug*.

Also, the idea of growing crystals is intriguing, and I could think of ways to make that awesome, in and of itself (make yourself a clean room, for starters). You know what's not awesome? Throwing a tile entity in a damn puddle, then pulling it out and pretending it's a computer component. /endrant

Anyway, it's for 1.7, and we're likely months away from any sort of complete/stable modpack for that version, so I guess I'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

[epidemia78]

The crystal growth process looks like the crucible from thaumcraft and the circuit press reminds me of Tinker's construct. I like the ideas but the implementation could use some work. Obviously this technology comes from aliens but he should have made crashed flying saucers or ancient technological ruins, not boring old meteors dont you think? Then later on when you have some infastructure you could make a portal to the alien home world and murder them for circuits.

Anyway, Im not updating anytime soon so by the time Im ready Im sure AE2 will have changed a bit.

 

[Linda Hartlen]

without having played with it I think it looks good apart from the whole having to go find the presses. which at least doesnt look as bad as thaumcraft (man did that mod ever go from one of my favs to.. get this out of here.. but i digress).

the meteors is.. meh.. i just dont like it from a RP standpoint. it just could have been done better without adding more rather useless black rocks with a press in it. and as said above random can really mess you over (tbh myself if i get too many of one and cant find the last one i will just cheat it in. I play to have fun and digging up something for the umpteenth time to find something i dont need isnt fun.. for me! note: for me).

But I am looking forward to trying it out. the channels I actually think will be fun to play with. means i actually have to think about how i do it rather then just slap on more and more.