About difficulty/tedium and the terms we use (GT and similar)

[Celestialphoenix]

As a general rule of thumb, every mod added/changed/removed requires a change of your gameplay ("playstyle") to suit.

An interesting pattern I've seen is that players who are able to change can just roll with the challenge usually enjoy it a lot more than those just hammer through same old same old and wonder why their game got a little tedious.​

(This actually applies to the MC community in general, not just FTB)​

Take the mining drill for example, started out as an entry level indestructible pick/shovel with diamond+ mining speed. It was pretty much the only option until you could grind enough diamond for EE tools.
Now theres repairing tools (thaumcraft/tinkers), modular powertools ect... , as well as a whole host of different handtools for digging/mining that all offer a similar functionality to the slightly more complex mining drill.

So suddenly there's a real choice of which paths to take, and yet some players still try to grind up to a mining drill while calling it 'tedious' - while others experiment with the new toys and seem to enjoy it more. ​

Though in my own experience, GT taught me that there are better options than a drill, I've personally used a Silktouch/Repair thaumium pick for mining, and a diamond jackhammer or destruction catalyst for heavy digging/quarrying.​

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Half of it is players simply not knowing what all the options are, or being encouraged down the same route (Cough *direwolf), yet those calling GT tedious and to 'un-nerf everything' so they can then do the same thing they always do. Constant repetition would never be tedious right?

 

[SpitefulFox]

Half of it is players simply not knowing what all the options are, or being encouraged down the same route (Cough *direwolf), yet those calling GT tedious and to 'un-nerf everything' so they can then do the same thing they always do. Constant repetition would never be tedious right?

Do you have an alternative to wooden planks and stone tools? Cuz I'm all ears.

 

[TylorGoldenYoshi]

You would have a point, except why nerf the original path? Not to mention that Gregtech's nerfs are nothing more than adding just unnecessary playtime. It's like if you were to make Ryu's Hadouken move do 0 damage because it's an easy infinite by performing it over and over without actually solving the problem about why it's an infinite. Limit the amount of Hadoukens allowed onscreen to 1, and lower hitstun, and it's no longer an infinite, and therefore, actually balanced, instead of taking the lazy way out.
The way I see it, you should be allowed multiple choices with each of them being equally effective.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Do you have an alternative to wooden planks and stone tools? Cuz I'm all ears.

Detonate a creeper next to a diamond vein

 

[TylorGoldenYoshi]

I hope you're joking.

 

[schyman]

Do you have an alternative to wooden planks and stone tools? Cuz I'm all ears.

Well, if you have TiC the cost of stone tools is very minor... And there are alternatives too, like cactus/paper/bone tools.
Not that that's neither here nor there xD

 

[SpitefulFox]

If you're going to make broad, insulting generalizations about people who don't like GregTech playstyle, you could at least back them up. Greg doesn't give you alternatives. There is no alternative to crafting storage blocks other than HIS way. There is no alternative to using wooden planks because those are the most basic building block of EVERYTHING. The only alternative to using wooden/stone tools at the beginning is to use Tinkers Construct... or would be if the two mods were allowed to play together.

Edit: Ninja'd by schyman on the TiC tools.

 

[schyman]

Yeah please don't let this devolve into a thread about how GT is good/bad. The point of the thread is discussing the design _goals_ of things like gregtech and the wish some people have for different tech paces, not whether gregtech is good or bad.

Edit: Ninja'd by schyman on the TiC tools.

I'm a ninja.

 

[RedBoss]

Any discussion about difficulty will have to address play styles. Some people like grinding, otherwise WoW wouldn't still be active. Others want adventure and treasure hunting. In Minecraft there are people who only want to build.

There are ways to address broad play styles but the extremely aesthetic or adventure minded person will feel oppressed in a game tooled for grinders and vice versa.

I've seen it stated that mod packs are like music mixes. A good mix has a good selection, is blended well and has minimal interpretation on the tracks by the DJ. Horrible mixes have the DJ talking over the intro to each track, talking during each track and usually include a song performed by the DJ. It ends up making you unable to enjoy the mix unless you really like the DJ.

 

[schyman]

I've seen it stated that mod packs are like music mixes. A good mix has a good selection, is blended well and has minimal interpretation on the tracks by the DJ. Horrible mixes have the DJ talking over the intro to each track, talking during each track and usually include a song performed by the DJ. It ends up making you unable to enjoy the mix unless you really like the DJ.

Kind of agreed. However, sometimes a little remixing can change the theme of the music mix a lot and make it appeal more to certain people (and less to others); having some way of easily changing the remixing options could be great.

 

[KirinDave]

As a general rule of thumb, every mod added/changed/removed requires a change of your gameplay ("playstyle") to suit.

An interesting pattern I've seen is that players who are able to change can just roll with the challenge usually enjoy it a lot more than those just hammer through same old same old and wonder why their game got a little tedious.​

(This actually applies to the MC community in general, not just FTB)​

Take the mining drill for example, started out as an entry level indestructible pick/shovel with diamond+ mining speed. It was pretty much the only option until you could grind enough diamond for EE tools.
Now theres repairing tools (thaumcraft/tinkers), modular powertools ect... , as well as a whole host of different handtools for digging/mining that all offer a similar functionality to the slightly more complex mining drill.

So suddenly there's a real choice of which paths to take, and yet some players still try to grind up to a mining drill while calling it 'tedious' - while others experiment with the new toys and seem to enjoy it more. ​

Though in my own experience, GT taught me that there are better options than a drill, I've personally used a Silktouch/Repair thaumium pick for mining, and a diamond jackhammer or destruction catalyst for heavy digging/quarrying.​

​

​

Half of it is players simply not knowing what all the options are, or being encouraged down the same route (Cough *direwolf), yet those calling GT tedious and to 'un-nerf everything' so they can then do the same thing they always do. Constant repetition would never be tedious right?

I like how your post is basically, "I learned a lot about minecraft by avoiding Gregtech."

 

[MacAisling]

Wrath Lamps aren't that bad to craft. The Wrath Igniter in the recipe loses a bit of durability instead of getting used up, so it's not like you have to cook up a new batch of diamond shards for every few lamps. The only hiccup is that Greg forces you to play IC2 in order to make the diamond block needed to make the diamond shards in the first place, if you have GregTech installed.

(FTB Ultimate for 1.4.7 pack)
Part of the hesitation is that some of the recipes that have to be made in factorization machines (like diamond shards) don't seem to be in NEI, so I'd have to keep referring back to the wiki or a tutorial to work through every step of the process, which my laptop has not been handling well. I think a lot of the lag problems have been resolved, but for a while it got so bad that I'd play for 1-2 hours then once the lag hit it would take 20 minutes just to quit FTB so I could relaunch. At this point I'm mostly waiting for the migration to 1.6 as I anticipate having to start over then. The wrath igniter seems to be the key to the more interesting & advanced items in the mod. Having to build an independent power system & several machines just to get that single wrath igniter is the hurdle. The wrath lamps are the 1 thing I've seen (in youtube vids) that may make it worth the effort to set up a Factorization processing area.

 

[SpitefulFox]

Having to build an independent power system & several machines just to get that single wrath igniter is the hurdle.

You don't need all those machines and power systems to get a wrath igniter.

What you need are:

One diamond block (and a compressor?)
Four obsidian
Four TNT blocks

Crafting those four together makes a Craftpacket. Latest 1.4.7 Ultimate should show that particular recipe in NEI, if I recall correctly. Once you have a craftpacket, you make a Craftpacket Stamper, which is made of cobble, iron, a crafting table, and a piston. The stamper requires no power to run. All you do is stick the craftpacket into it and get 16 (?) diamond shards. One diamond shard + 1 nether brick gets you a wrath igniter.

 

[Zelfana]

Do you have an alternative to wooden planks and stone tools? Cuz I'm all ears.

An actual alternative to doing the old wood punching at the start is to find villages and loot smithy chests for iron/steel/bronze/thaumium pickaxes. Thaumcraft's added loot chests also have chance to contain thaumium pickaxe or even the Pickaxe of the Core.

But it doesn't make sense to nerf the vanilla route to a point where no one would use it anymore when you have other options. And when you don't have other options it adds nothing but player annoyance when they have to craft new stone pickaxes more often and also need some extra tools to make their tools. The stone pickaxe is slow anyway and you can only mine tin and copper in addition to iron. I don't see why it needed any nerfing. He also nerfed wooden tools' durability and that makes even less sense because who even makes more than one wooden tool ever.

 

[SpitefulFox]

He also nerfed wooden tools' durability and that makes even less sense because who even makes more than one wooden tool ever.

Admittedly, a wooden pickaxe that breaks after mining exactly enough cobble to make a stone pick would be pretty convenient.

 

[RedBoss]

An actual alternative to doing the old wood punching at the start is to find villages and loot smithy chests for iron/steel/bronze/thaumium pickaxes. Thaumcraft's added loot chests also have chance to contain thaumium pickaxe or even the Pickaxe of the Core.

I wouldn't consider that an alternative since it's such a random situation. There is no guarantee you will run into a village in your first 30 minutes or less of Minecraft. There is no guarantee you will find a village populated with villager structure s that contain loot. There's no guarantee that even if those structures generate, that the loot with be useful in the way that you describe.

I understand your need to offer an alternative, but it boils down to far too much randomness to be considered a firm alternative. IMO.

 

[Zelfana]

Admittedly, a wooden pickaxe that breaks after mining exactly enough cobble to make a stone pick would be pretty convenient.

I ceremoniously burn the wooden pickaxe now that you can burn the wooden tools. Wooden axe might be useful if you're somehow twisted and don't want to "interrupt" wood chopping to find stone to make a stone one but since the wise Greg nerfed the durability you're probably getting less wood per minute with that than without because it takes 3 logs to make one with the plank nerf.

 

[MacAisling]

You don't need all those machines and power systems to get a wrath igniter.

What you need are:

One diamond block (and a compressor?)
Four obsidian
Four TNT blocks

Crafting those four together makes a Craftpacket. Latest 1.4.7 Ultimate should show that particular recipe in NEI, if I recall correctly. Once you have a craftpacket, you make a Craftpacket Stamper, which is made of cobble, iron, a crafting table, and a piston. The stamper requires no power to run. All you do is stick the craftpacket into it and get 16 (?) diamond shards. One diamond shard + 1 nether brick gets you a wrath igniter.

It's been awhile since I watched the tutorial, part of my confusion is that the shards are used to make the grinder, instead of the other way around like I was vaguely thinking. Still a lot of material & steps, but not nearly as bad as I was thinking.

 

[Zelfana]

I wouldn't consider that an alternative since it's such a random situation. There is no guarantee you will run into a village in your first 30 minutes or less of Minecraft. There is no guarantee you will find a village populated with villager structure s that contain loot. There's no guarantee that even if those structures generate, that the loot with be useful in the way that you describe.

I understand your need to offer an alternative, but it boils down to far too much randomness to be considered a firm alternative. IMO.

Yeah it's pretty rare chance you would find anything meaningful in the chests. I did try it but I already had stone tools before I went out to explore more than the immediate spawn area. So it's not alternative to stone tools but for iron and above I did use that strategy as I made my first thaumium pickaxe from the ingots I found.

 

[SpitefulFox]

What would be an example of a mod that has a long tech time, but isn't tedious?