1.2.5 was special, wasn't it?

[ICountFrom0]

Think about this with me for a while, would you?

How much of what we really enjoyed from these packs only really happened because mojang stayed on 1.2.5 for so long?

I'm stating to think that mojang's halt in development was a real boon.

All the mods had a chance to not only catch up, but to rub shoulders a while. It started the concept of mod packs. Look at today, 1.7 just had it's first snapshot. Mod dev's are still scrambling to keep up, there's not so much time to innovate or expand. The break gave everybody time.

I don't think the concept of modpacks would have grown the way it has without that time. I do not think we'd have a concept of the pyramid and the insanity that is the beast that we all feed. I miss wrenched, but we might not have even have had wrenched.

Just something to think about, if you would.

Opine?

 

[Pokefenn]

1.2.5 was just a great thing in all ways.
I agree with 1.2.5 being there for so long was good and for the same reasons you said.

1.2.5 will always have a place in my heart for the first time i played with modded minecraft properly :3

 

[WayofTime]

I agree that having a long period of time with one version does help out the modding community immensely. As a relatively new modder in the age of 1.5 going to 1.6, it does become very difficult to encourage others to update. Frankly, updating a mod is a pain in the keeshter, especially when there are huge changes to mods in a leap between version numbers. Take 1.6 for example, where all liquid code has to migrate to the new Fluid system. Sure, for some it is quite frankly easy, but for others it causes them to change how they have to think.

The main issue here is that whenever Vanilla goes on to a new version (I say version like the leap from 1.6->1.7, not 1.5.1 to 1.5.2), it haults mod development to a certain extent, and forces everyone into mod up-keeping. So, you don't get new toys, and it discourages the modders themselves (case in point: Eloraam, though she has other reasons as well). Also, because the modders frankly want their mods to be used, they are slower to update to the newer version so that they don't have to wait for other people's favourite mods to update as well. I am sure that if my mod (Blood Magic) was available for 1.5, instead of me trying to get ahead of the game and updating right away to 1.6, the reception and scrutiny of the mod would be a lot different.

The main reason people mod, I feel, is because they want others to enjoy their creation. By having major changes in the game base as frequently as it is right now, modders are discouraged to have their mods out before other people, and thus give the users less time to enjoy the hard work that the modders went through.

 

[Omicron]

1.2.5 was a blessing and a curse. It allowed the modding scene to flourish and focus on content, but it also had severe limitations to work around. Compared to nowadays it wasn't mod friendly at all, and while people found ingenious ways to wriggle around the limitations and do stuff anyways, it also made the community settle into a suboptimal pattern. When 1.3 finally came, and brought really really important and necessary changes, it was immensely painful to update mods because people were simply so used to crutches.

Compare nowadays: Mojang is running at full speed with updates, and most modders just can't keep up with simply matching the version, let alone do content updates. But on the other hand, why is Mojang running? Because they're going through a process that's going to hurt no matter what. They have the option of breaking things hard over and over and over very slowly, or very quickly. It's the equivalent of doing a bikini wax and pulling it off very slowly or ripping it off very quickly. Most people actually prefer and recommend the latter!

Minecraft is changing under the hood in a way that morphs it from a form-follows-function block of proprietary code that people need to hack into to change, into a standardized framework for people to build on with convenient, supported tools. Would you rather that this change took five years to complete - or would you want it done and over with?

Two sides of a coin. Both are equally valid, but only one of them can be face up at any time. You must make a sacrifice either way.

 

[DoctorOr]

Think about this with me for a while, would you?

How much of what we really enjoyed from these packs only really happened because mojang stayed on 1.2.5 for so long?

None of it. I quit playing vanilla before 1.2.5 and never played modded until 1.4

Looking at videos, it looks really boring. Lots of creative-mode-but-lets-not-call-it-that

 

[PeggleFrank]

None of it. I quit playing vanilla before 1.2.5 and never played modded until 1.4

Looking at videos, it looks really boring. Lots of creative-mode-but-lets-not-call-it-that

You're judging something that you haven't even experienced.

Quality argument here, folks.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

1.2.5 was a blessing and a curse. It allowed the modding scene to flourish and focus on content, but it also had severe limitations to work around. Compared to nowadays it wasn't mod friendly at all, and while people found ingenious ways to wriggle around the limitations and do stuff anyways, it also made the community settle into a suboptimal pattern. When 1.3 finally came, and brought really really important and necessary changes, it was immensely painful to update mods because people were simply so used to crutches.

The break in 1.2.5 was sufficient for mod authors to get some really awesome concepts, then 1.3 came and... well... the rat race was on again!

Compare nowadays: Mojang is running at full speed with updates, and most modders just can't keep up with simply matching the version, let alone do content updates. But on the other hand, why is Mojang running? Because they're going through a process that's going to hurt no matter what. They have the option of breaking things hard over and over and over very slowly, or very quickly. It's the equivalent of doing a bikini wax and pulling it off very slowly or ripping it off very quickly. Most people actually prefer and recommend the latter!

Minecraft is changing under the hood in a way that morphs it from a form-follows-function block of proprietary code that people need to hack into to change, into a standardized framework for people to build on with convenient, supported tools. Would you rather that this change took five years to complete - or would you want it done and over with?

Two sides of a coin. Both are equally valid, but only one of them can be face up at any time. You must make a sacrifice either way.

I've got quite a few reservations about this, and about how Mojang proposes the API. I've listened to their video on how they propose modding will end up like. I'm not so sure it will be a good thing for the modders or the users. At a very minimum, Minecraft is going to have to incorporate a fairly robust ID fixing system. The user-friendly way they plan on implementing mods means you can end up with two mods using the same ID's, and it is going to have to work. Worse, with their focus on SMP, they're going to have to make sure that everyone using the same combination of mods gets the same ID's every time. Which means either a) mod authors are assigned ID's to use, or b) no one uses ID's in their actual code, they use a variable which is then defined when the Minecraft instance is started up based on an identical algorithm. That's going to be a PITA to implement, and it's going to lag minecraft loading mods because it has to, on the fly, assign ID numbers to every mod as they load up.

Next, the problem is that every mod will have to be able to work with any other mod. This means total conversion mods (like BTW) are going to end up on a sticky wicket. Also mod authors who historically do not wish their mods in the same pack are going to get really unhappy when they are forced to be able to by Mojang. I'm fairly sure everyone knows what I am talking about here. The small upside here is that if anyone crashes Minecraft deliberately with the new system, Mojang itself can and will intervene, and it IS their code, and at that point it WILL be deliberately crashing their code, and I'm fairly sure they won't put up with that. Remember, you'll be submitting your 'plugins' to Mojang directly once the API is realized. It's not like you're operating in a marginal and officially overlooked grey area which only a tiny fraction of the minecraft population is even aware of, Mojang will be bringing this up on the front menu, where every Minecraft player can access mods, and are downloaded from Mojang's repositories. Crashing Minecraft from the title screen is going to get Mojang very pissed at you because that is Mojang customers you are screwing with, and I can't see any company just letting that go.

Unfortunately, that also brings up my third reservation about the new API: Bland Oatmeal Code. Any API gives you options. Some give you more than others. The whole point of the API is to permit you to modify some aspects of the game while restricting access to others. I'm getting the impression that it will be rather like WoW's Addons, but with more flexibility about what the mods can do. However, the problem here is that some mods just won't be able to achieve their functionality within that API, which means at that point... they're pretty much abandoned. You will be left with a bajillionty 'I add a dozen new materials, and weapons and armor that are made with them!' type mods, and a baker's dozen 'gun mods', but I'm not sure how they will be able to incorporate things like the Forge Ore Dictionary or the Liquids Dictionary or anything like that.

 

[Omicron]

(...) or b) no one uses ID's in their actual code, they use a variable which is then defined when the Minecraft instance is started up based on an identical algorithm. That's going to be a PITA to implement (...)

Something very much like this just got rolled out with the first 1.7 snapshot, go have a look at the code...

And yes, that is literally breaking every mod ever that assigns an ID and does something with it, but this will likely be the last time anyone has to worry about IDs. That's basically what I meant when I suggested that it might be a good thing to push certain features through fast and hard, even if it's painful for the modding community.

(...) However, the problem here is that some mods just won't be able to achieve their functionality within that API (...)

And what makes you assume that the modding community will just accept that quietly?

Case in point: Forge. Forge is an API. Forge does not limit modders using it in any way, because if there is a functionality missing, then it can be added. And since 1.6.x, Forge does all its magic despite having stopped shipping base class modifications, which means it is no longer in violation of the EULA/ToS. A violation that thousands of mods do and that Mojang has never acted on even once, but regardless, they're in the clean now and forever more. Which means that regardless of whatever the Mojang API ends up being, you can still tack Forge on top of it without functional or legal issues - a community-controlled API that will cover everything that Mojang won't supply. And who knows? Depending on how things work out, you might even be able to run Forge mods and non-Forge-mods together at some point, if Forge yields control of those features the vanilla API can do to said vanilla API. It'll be a win-win situation for every player.

 

[SpitefulFox]

Forge practically IS the modding API. It's hard not to resent Mojang for wanting their own proprietary API and constantly breaking the very modding community they're supposedly working to support.

 

[DoctorOr]

You're judging something that you haven't even experienced.

Quality argument here, folks.

I'm judging the play I saw on videos, which I did experience.

 

[Hydra]

Forge practically IS the modding API. It's hard not to resent Mojang for wanting their own proprietary API and constantly breaking the very modding community they're supposedly working to support.

Give them some credit please. Its very hard to properly api-ify an exist application that wasnt designed with that in mind. And i dont know any other game igot for 5E and spent so much time in.

 

[mushroom taco]

Ah, 1.2.5... Memories...

Oh man, the reason I got into all of this was crazy. The server I was currently playing on (it was a public server, and we wanted people, but it was really just a bunch of friends who met on another server that had been shut down for good) 's owner made a private tekkit server for all the staff. (I wasn't staff, but I was good friends with everyone including the owner, and one of the staff members gave me the ip and the rest of the staff decided to let me stay) I joined a few of them and they took me into their base, and we started doing stuff. The server shut down before long, so I explored it in single player. My GOSH have I never had an experience like that. It was so frickin awesome. I wish I could have that awesome feeling back... But I think I've run out of completely new experiences like that in minecraft.
After that I slowly drifted back into vanilla on that server, and when they shut down their vanilla server, I didn't do much. Then in 1.4.7 I got into ftb and later on in 1.5.2 I started building my own packs and messing with resonant rise. Here I am.

So yeah, 1.2.5 will always have a special place in my heart.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And what makes you assume that the modding community will just accept that quietly?

Because they won't have a choice in the matter? This isn't just Forge now, this is Mojang itself delineating what can and cannot be done with a mod.

Case in point: Forge. Forge is an API. Forge does not limit modders using it in any way, because if there is a functionality missing, then it can be added. And since 1.6.x, Forge does all its magic despite having stopped shipping base class modifications, which means it is no longer in violation of the EULA/ToS. A violation that thousands of mods do and that Mojang has never acted on even once, but regardless, they're in the clean now and forever more. Which means that regardless of whatever the Mojang API ends up being, you can still tack Forge on top of it without functional or legal issues - a community-controlled API that will cover everything that Mojang won't supply. And who knows? Depending on how things work out, you might even be able to run Forge mods and non-Forge-mods together at some point, if Forge yields control of those features the vanilla API can do to said vanilla API. It'll be a win-win situation for every player.

Unless Mojang says "Every mod now has to run through our API or it isn't allowed to run with Minecraft anymore". Which is their right. And, to be honest, it makes a lot of sense as far as stability goes.

 

[Zenthon_127]

Mojang releasing the mod API is far more likely to kill modding Minecraft than anything else. If they had done this during ModLoader days it would have helped, but Forge is so far ahead at this point that Mojang can't physically catch up.

They just need to admit defeat.

 

[arthahar]

In fact what I not understand in Mojang position why not release some limited API parts and let ppl slowly migrate from forge api in this prt to official api. Then will no any battle in api support and "can't physically catch up" case.Just slowly forge will look like wrapper and extension of official api and in final state forge itself will use only official api for work with minecraft. So people will have choice just use official api when possible or use for extanded forge functionality.

 

[SpitefulFox]

Because they won't have a choice in the matter? This isn't just Forge now, this is Mojang itself delineating what can and cannot be done with a mod.

Choice? Modding Minecraft has never been a "choice" offered by Mojang. Mojang goes out of their way to squash modding by obfuscating their game and then re-obfuscating it every version change so that mods break and modders have to wait for the MCP team to crack the new code every update. Yet, that hasn't stopped people from writing mods for the game.

Unless Mojang says "Every mod now has to run through our API or it isn't allowed to run with Minecraft anymore". Which is their right. And, to be honest, it makes a lot of sense as far as stability goes.

Which would be the final stab in the eye for all that made their game popular in the first place and pretty much make it official that Mojang hates the modding community.

 

[mushroom taco]

Which would be the final stab in the eye for all that made their game popular in the first place and pretty much make it official that Mojang hates the modding community.

What do you mean? I didn't start minecraft because of the mods. I heard it was cool so I played it. I didn't learn about the REAL mods until 1.2.5 (I started in 1.0.0)

 

[SpitefulFox]

What do you mean? I didn't start minecraft because of the mods. I heard it was cool so I played it. I didn't learn about the REAL mods until 1.2.5 (I started in 1.0.0)

You're right. I'm starting to sound like the Yogscast. :/

Anyways, it'd be a major disservice to a very sizeable portion of the community.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Anyways, it'd be a major disservice to a very sizeable portion of the community.

And a major service to an even larger portion of the community, from a certain perspective.

Let's face it, even with all the Forge crew has done, it's still difficult to put a bunch of mods together and make it work, which is why mod packs exist at all. Trust me, as someone who maintains a mod pack, there's a lot of 'fiddly bits' to make it work properly. Mojang's API is going to be aiming at removing that and making it 'idiot proof'. Click 'mods' tab on the main menu, select mods desired, click run, it works. That's how simple they want it. Which means a fairly restrictive API so everything IS compatible.

This will further marginalize the way modding is currently done, because there will be an 'official' way of doing it, and Forge isn't it.

 

[RavynousHunter]

If they're seriously going to start shoehorning every mod into their own vision of what "can and can't be done" with Minecraft, then a pretty big hunk of the community will probably give Mojang the finger and walk off set to something else; something that could potentially screw Minecraft, though not outright kill it. The great thing about Forge is that it already does most anything the authors want it to do and, if it doesn't, they can make it do what they want by way of adding functionality.

However, Mojang would be hard-pressed to beat Forge. Forge has had a lot of time to do exactly what Mojang wants the so-called "modding API" to do, and will likely do it 10x better than Mojang will be able to achieve even if given a decade in which to work on it. The only way they'd stop people, like me, from using Forge is if they made Minecraft so you literally can't hook Forge into it. As long as Forge is allowed into Minecraft, people will use it. I highly doubt most people would touch any significant amount of the "official API" when Forge already does a damn good job at what its meant to do: facilitate easy mod interaction, inter-dependency, and integration without base class edits.

Besides, Java isn't exactly a hard language to decompile; any moron with 5 minutes and Google can learn to do it. Deobfuscation tools are already available. Bypassing any API locks or idiotic restrictions would only be a matter of time. If people want Forge, it will find a way to survive. Personally, I want Forge. I don't want Mojang's API which will likely be a kludge-fest for the first many iterations of its existence.

[ETA]
As for 1.2.5, it really was where I begun working with LOTS of mods. I'd worked with multiple mods before: PowerCraft + Crossbows mod + Ropes + Vertical Redstone = FUN ON THE BUN! Been doing it since a few months after I started playing, around Beta 1.8. However, 1.2.5 brought me Technic, and with it, I saw a whole new world of possibilities. I'll never forget the time I used EE2 collectors to make lava buckets and, using a complicated system of deployers and pumps, ran all my IC2 machinery off a bank of some 32 geothermal generators without ever touching hell.

If I could have one thing back from 1.2.5, it'd be the original cow sounds. I seriously can't stand the ones we have now...don't ask me why, but I find them almost physically revolting. Its like coming back to a familiar painting you used to enjoy and seeing that someone went and smeared feces all over it while you weren't looking.