Reika's Update Checker

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TomeWyrm

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Jul 29, 2019
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Because this topic just keeps coming up in 70 threads and appears to be annoying community members in those threads, I figured I would start a topic to focus this discussion for everyone's benefit.

If it's about the update checker for Reika's mods, the discussion belongs here. Discussions about update checkers in general are fine as well, but please try to keep the point relevant to the discussion at hand?

Unless I don't know how moderation works, the mods will be watching this thread closely, so please keep the discussion extra clean so this thread doesn't get locked.
 
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I can understand that Reika wants people to keep using the latest version, even if it is just for the sake of people not submitting issues for outdated versions (I know it is a real PITA). However if you consider players on a server who are in no position to update the mods they are the ones who suffer the most in the end. Sure there is the config option, but from my personal experience I set it to false once, and the message was gone, but the next time I joined the server the message was back again, even though the config option was set to false. I'm not quite sure how this works or how it is intended to work, but still this is possibly the most annoying thing I have ever encountered in modded Minecraft.

Reika, I like your mods, I appreciate your efforts and I respect you and your wishes, but seriously, isn't this a bridge too far?



P.S. I'm not sure if anyone else has issues with this, but when that outdated mods banner is active, every time I get a thaumcraft warp effect my screen goes pitch black and won't turn back to normal until I restart my client making the banner even more annoying as it already is.
 
Because this topic just keeps coming up in 70 threads and appears to be annoying community members in those threads, I figured I would start a topic to focus this discussion for everyone's benefit.

If it's about the update checker for Reika's mods, the discussion belongs here. Discussions about update checkers in general are fine as well, but please try to keep the point relevant to the discussion at hand?

Unless I don't know how moderation works, the mods will be watching this thread closely, so please keep the discussion extra clean so this thread doesn't get locked.
Tomewyrm, you're a frequent flier on Reika's forum, can you provide the details (neutrally) of the update checker?

All I know is that it exists and that it can be configured on and off. If that's the case I don't see an issue.
 
Last I read, the update notification was being redesigned.

There's nothing wrong with wanting your mod updated, but I'm getting a bit of whiplash with how fast updates are coming out. I'll update the mods one day, and then a day or two later the banner is back, and I check the changelog, and there isn't a large volume of changes listed.

I wonder if the update checker should be reserved for critical updates, but not for every one of them. Kinda like the windows patch management. Some patches are listed as critical, others are listed as recommended.
 
Last I read, the update notification was being redesigned.

There's nothing wrong with wanting your mod updated, but I'm getting a bit of whiplash with how fast updates are coming out. I'll update the mods one day, and then a day or two later the banner is back, and I check the changelog, and there isn't a large volume of changes listed.

I wonder if the update checker should be reserved for critical updates, but not for every one of them. Kinda like the windows patch management. Some patches are listed as critical, others are listed as recommended.
The thing with Reika's updates is that he rarely releases a short list of updates unless at least one of them is pretty important. As far as I recall.
 
That's what I kinda figured the response would be. If there's an update, it's a critical one, therefore all of them deserve the banner.

Thing is, and I understand that it's being redesigned again, is that the current method isn't causing the question of "how can I better manage updating my pack" as it is "how can I disable this banner?". Kinda the opposite effect.

Though the more I think of it, it's not really a reika issue. Mods are relatively easy to update at the base level. Maybe there could be a better way to manage pack updates for end users? Not referring to mainstream pack dev groups, but more like users like myself who play alone on a server environment.
 
I for one like to have notification of updated mods.
sure the way this is done is different, but different doesn't always mean bad! I have to say I prefer the new updated (upcoming?) Method rather than a bar across the top
 
I've seen this in various places and it seems flat out obnoxious. I understand that Reika gets frustrated with silly bug reports, but this whole decision seemed to be a knee jerk reaction. Modpacks just don't update frequently enough to make putting that update banner seem logical. Plus some people just don't like to update frequently because of potential conflicts with other mods. Just because you fix bugs that are reported, doesn't mean that everyone has experienced said bugs. There are just way too many variables to account for that would prevent people from updating.
 
I've seen this in various places and it seems flat out obnoxious. I understand that Reika gets frustrated with silly bug reports, but this whole decision seemed to be a knee jerk reaction. Modpacks just don't update frequently enough to make putting that update banner seem logical. Plus some people just don't like to update frequently because of potential conflicts with other mods. Just because you fix bugs that are reported, doesn't mean that everyone has experienced said bugs. There are just way too many variables to account for that would prevent people from updating.
Nobody in their right mind is going to think I'm a Reika fanboy, so you'll understand that I'm devil's advocating here purely out of an interest of balance.

If a user can disable that mechanic via a config (which is what I infer from Tomewyrm's op) then is it really justified to give the dev a hard time for this? Flip the config, you're done. Everyone wins. Even if you have to change that config every couple months due to pack updates or whatever, it seems net-positive for the community.
 
If a user can disable that mechanic via a config (which is what I infer from Tomewyrm's op) then is it really justified to give the dev a hard time for this? Flip the config, you're done. Everyone wins. Even if you have to change that config every couple months due to pack updates or whatever, it seems net-positive for the community.
It only disables for one update, and only for I think 2 weeks
 
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So you have to individually say, "stop bugging me about v5b", and then do it again in 2 weeks?
Kinda, the config option will only allow you to get one update behind before you have to do it again I think, or something like that
 
Yep, it's the same thing in a networking environment. You don't install patches the day they're available in case there are any unforeseen consequences or interactions.

Same would be true for large mod packs. There's just too many variables to consider by blindly updating mods as soon as theyre available. This would actually cause an increase in bug reports if there is suddenly an unintended interaction with a popular mod.
 
All I know is that it exists and that it can be configured on and off. If that's the case I don't see an issue.

Actually...

Actually in the DragonAPI config there is an option that allows you to turn it off. Just look for the option that says: B:"Agressive Update Notification"=true

This redesign is removing that option - it is not even compatible with the new system - and it appeared not to work anyway.

But the message is now only about 10 seconds of clicking. I have little sympathy for anyone who claims that is arduous or incomprehensible.
 
Nobody in their right mind is going to think I'm a Reika fanboy, so you'll understand that I'm devil's advocating here purely out of an interest of balance.

If a user can disable that mechanic via a config (which is what I infer from Tomewyrm's op) then is it really justified to give the dev a hard time for this? Flip the config, you're done. Everyone wins. Even if you have to change that config every couple months due to pack updates or whatever, it seems net-positive for the community.
I appreciate that and others have addressed your reply. But the main point is about servers. Players on servers usually have zero control over the update cycle. You end up punishing the entire server with these types of intrusive update invasions. It appears that Reika is addressing this misstep so lets hope we don't have anything like this in the future.
 
I appreciate that and others have addressed your reply. But the main point is about servers. Players on servers usually have zero control over the update cycle. You end up punishing the entire server with these types of intrusive update invasions. It appears that Reika is addressing this misstep so lets hope we don't have anything like this in the future.
Makes sense to me. My original understanding was that you had the option to fully turn off the warnings, but I believe that wasn't correct. It does seem considerably more intrusive than that.
 
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Just my two cents:

Us phoenixteam guys have been running a private roleplay server and for some reason we included reika's mods. Nobody really uses them at all on the server, but the rainbow forest is too embedded into the story to remove. For a while, the update ticker was causing @InfinityRaider to not be able to play on the server at all when the mods got outdated because the ticker does create a black screen with thaumcraft shader effects. I've had it happen too. It's especially troublesome for him because his character dove way deep into warp and is like some crazy void master or something. The point is, he gets a lot of shader effects, and whenever reika's mods become outdated, that made the game entirely unplayable. It caused poor qaz to have to immediately update regardless of other mods.

Also, what pack do you know of that updates immediately every time a new mod is updated? Most modpackers don't want to go through the hassle, but with reika's mods installed, they kind of have no choice in the matter. Either submit their users to invasive update requirements that their players can't do anything about if they're on a server. In any case, modpack updates really shouldn't be too frequent. Especially if they're FTB modpacks. The team likes to wait to make sure an update is stable before recomending the update, which usually takes a week or two. So reika's mods update, the put the updates in the beta update, then players still have to go a week either dealing with invasive update reminders or playing on a potentially unstable pack version. Especially in the new system, which by my understanding can't be disabled at all.

And the new system, it's still really annoying for most players. True it isn't as invasive as the old system, but honestly, who is ever going to read those popups? Who ever reads popups? You just close them out and move on. Doesn't matter. It would be a lot neater, easier, and far less invasive to just put it in the frakking chat like everyone else. A chat message is easily ignored, and if the player gives a frak about mod updates, they can check the chat when they log in for updates.

That's all my opinion and nobody else's. That's what I think about the matter, but reika cand and definitely is going to do whatever he wants with his mods and that's his right and I'm not going to stand in his way.

Now for the stuff that can cause riots: I don't like reika's attitude. Because of a select few idiots who post invalid bug reports he feel the need to let that effect the entire playerbase. Some users complain about tweaked recipes causing unbalance? remove minetweaker functionality for everyone to stop those reports from happening entirely. Some people complain about EMC causing their server to be destroyed because for some idiotic reason they decided to put EMC on all of the rotarycraft items? (seriously though that's a really dumb descision) Disable EMC on everything for everyone. Some people complain about bugs on outdated versions? Make everyone subject to an update checker that can't be disabled. It just seems rather immature to me
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Would quote, but it's surprisingly hard to quote on an iPad.

I sort of understand where reika is coming from. He's trying to provide an experience that follows his vision, and then tries to stop anything that interferes with it. I understand that. What better way to make sure everything fits and works in the optimal way than to ensure its balanced in a vacuum? (Something about spherical cows...). Also, one thing people forget is when you download and run a mod, you're not only agreeing to use that mod, you're also agreeing to the vision and style of the mod author has.

That doesn't mean I agree with everything, or even disagree with it. I just see that there could be better ways to handle some of these things.

Also, unless someone is being stupid without putting forth a bit of effort, I've never seen him really act immature. He does want to be involved with the community, even if people are at odds with his methods. It just may be easy to interpret some things as hostile when it should be taken at face value.
 
I really wish all these types of discussions would not always get started during the 6 hours I am asleep, then run away full of misinformation.


Anyways, as I have said, the version checker has been redesigned for the next version. It is now a box that appears - one per mod, and only one appears at a time - with the message, and can be clicked to close it at the user's convenience:
4aPz4p0.png



This is done to allow the user to play unimpeded, and solves all issues regarding things like FPS lag or ThaumCraft warp interactions.


Also, most of the hate I am currently getting is not for the design itself - it is for having a version checker at all. The more reasonable - still less than half - are satisfied with an "I want to use old versions" config, but nonetheless, a large number of people want the ability to be able to use versions months out of date without hassle, and many of them take issue with the summary rejection of bug reports. As I mentioned on the other thread, if I let packs idle with versions as old as they tend to do, I will be effectively saying "packs need not bother reporting bugs, as there is a less than 1% chance you are using the latest version". Look how well that went.

Moreover, before, with the ticker, people were providing the - legitimate - argument that updating immediately is undesirable and risky. I understand that. That is what the config was for. However, as far as I know, not one person actually used the config - or the command to hide the checker - and instead they all started reddit, forum, and other discussions about how I was wrecking the game and "among the worst developers since Eloraam".
Now, it is even worse. The majority of the people who are complaining now are saying what is in effect "I do not ever want an update message, because I do not ever plan on updating unless I feel like it". In the same breath, they go on to say that despite the two-week grace period, they updated immediately to a new major version, and when that had bugs, as they inevitably do, THAT is when they refused to update further to the next minor version, despite the only change being the fixing of that and other bugs. In other words, they updated until right before the version fixing their issue, and proceeded to refuse to fix it and instead whine for 24 hours straight about that issue and why it makes update checkers "a tool of lazy or incompetent developers".

Also, updating my mods is much less dangerous than people make it out to be. I have never had a world-corrupting update, and only four updates since 1.5.2 - all major ones - introduced a kind of "you must break all X before updating", and all of which were clearly noted in the changelog and my thread. Which does crap all for someone updating six months later.
Additionally, I run my own dev server, and on it I have more of my mods' hardware than 99% of other people, so I know full well how easily the map can survive the updates. And if mine is fine, yours is exceedingly likely to be too.

Furthermore, much of the criticsm has been extremely more vitriolic and often personal than that. In the last 72 hours, I have been called over 140 names, including six dictators, three religious figures, and over ten mental illnesses. I have had at least three suggest DDoSing the version checking server. I have had two - including someone on these forums - suggest stealing the mods and making a new version without it, hoping to replace me. I have had five people suggest doxxing me to be able to apply real-world pressure. Several people left messages to the effect of "just what I expect from a f**". I have at least one major mod developer deliberately stirring the pot, saying inflammatory things of borderline truth. I have had accusations that my login handler - which is used to dispatch the message, as well as a bunch of other technical behind-the-scenes syncing - accused of trying to steal information. I have had people tell me that I am "too emotionally unstable to deal with the public". I have over 40 emails, some pleading for me to "stop breaking their game" and some saying things like "this is why the RR team hates you, because you hate packs". Several more say things like "you know, if you can't fix bugs before needing an update, maybe you should step aside, so someone else can take your place". And of course over 10 variants of "the customer is always right", which I have never seen, real world or online, paired with a legitimate argument. As I referenced before, last time someone told me "the customer is always right" in a real-world environment (years ago, towards the end of my last year with a summer job), they followed it by throwing their garbage (an apple, a pizza slice holder, and a empty pop can) at me. That was in response to "no, you cannot get on this ride for less than half the cost". The last time it was said to me in the MC community was followed by the user going on to say that if they demanded I suck their d***, I would be forced to do so.

Additionally, when I tried suggesting alternate approaches that may be more desirable, did I get any useful feedback or opinions? No. I got more "HOW DARE YOU TELL US WHAT DO YOU YOU'RE SO ANTI USER JUST GET RID OF THE WHOLE THING THIS IS WHY YOUR PLAYERBASE IS SHRINKING".

Point is, it is not me that is broken. A chunk of the community is.

And if you are reading this and anything I described above resembles something you said to me, especially recently, step back and think for a moment. Do not go back and remove the vitriol - that is revisionist and dishonest - but sit down and think about how you have been acting, and how this would have gone for you had you said things like this in the real world. Many of you would have lost jobs, friends, or relationships, or been banned from stores or restaurants. A few of you would probably be in jail or under investigation.
Now think. I presume most of you would not act this way in the real world.
What exactly about this was different? Why did you see it acceptable to do it here? The faceless nature of the internet? Did you forget that I am as real as you are, or that I do not spend all my time doing this? Or is it because you envisioned yourself as a mistreated customer, not getting the product they paid for, even though you pay nothing? Or is it something else?
Now, with that in mind, how would a mature, reasonable person proceed? I am not going to ask for an apology from everyone - that alone could take days to process - but ceasing to continue this behavior, and possibly a redaction for public statements, is very much in order.



Now, with all of that said, and in no particular order:

Despite what some have feared, warned about, or predicted, no matter how bad this gets, I am not going to step away and leave (cue several readers looking disappointed). The worse I will ever do is take a break, but I will never leave. As said before, I am used to receiving abuse - I get a lot in the real world too, where it matters more than lost time and irritation/loss of faith in humanity - and on top of that it, despite everything else, remains a small fraction of my dealing with the community. Additionally, I mostly enjoy working on the mods, and have no intention of stopping. If your intentions are to aggravate me to the point of departure, you are wasting your time.
That said, some of the abuse is starting to negatively affect my sleep.


As for the version checker: Yes, I know I removed the config, because it was incompatible with the new system. The argument that only pack devs should see an update message, unless the pack is no longer maintained, is a legitimate one, and one I tried to account for. Unfortunately, two things happened. One, it failed to work much. Many players still saw the message, and a few pack developers tried to get sneaky and subvert it (and of course, went on to report old bugs again). Two, many of the complaints I got initially came from pack devs, saying that it was unreasonable to expect them to A) update my mods if they are updating their pack and B) not go nine months without updates on an active and popular pack. I understand busy - trust me, I know all too well - but (A) takes minutes and (B) directly leads to the issues I am talking about, and likely not just for me.

I do not want to punish players or packmakers doing things properly. I am trying to catch two cases: Lazy/incompetent pack makers ("eh, updating is a pain, I'll just leave it thanks") and discontinued packs - Monster being the elephant in the room, or at least an example of it - where, yes, I expect servers or SSP players to take up the role of updating. Especially with the grace period that I had - and I am working on including it again - updating within two weeks is not an arduous task, and falls well within someone's role as a server admin. An admin taking issue with that is no different than one taking issue with having to tweak configs or clean up damage. Oh wait, they do that too...

So, as said before, I am not willing to add a simple "do not remind me" config, because as far as I see it, the only people who lose out with the current system, assuming it works as intended, are people who never intend to update, and, given how easy it is to close the messages now, are too lazy or impatient to click a few "X"s.

Long story short, the whole motivation behind this checker is to tip the "cost/benefit ratio" in favor of updating. So if you have a real issue preventing you from updating, which can happen, clicking a few Xs is the easier option. If you are simply lazy, or never botherer checking for updates when you are updating your pack or playing a discontinued one? Then update.


On the topic of support:
If I cannot enforce any level of version control, and the majority of my playerbase is using versions that are out of date, often by months or even years, my only other choice is to refuse support entirely except from a select few people I can trust, such as Eyamaz/jaded/friends. Noone wins in that scenario. Bugs go much longer unfixed, because they may not be reported by a "whitelisted" person, the average user feels scorned and unwanted, and basically every pack is shown the door when it comes to support.

As for suggestions to try GitHub, there are three problems.
One, I find it much less user-friendly as a bug reporting system, and I can never get markdown formatting right.
Two, because it is not moderated like forums are, it gets orders of magnitude more vitriolic and flooded with PEBKAC errors that would normally get deleted from a forum. The 24 hour window the RC bug tracker somehow got opened and had >50 such reports can attest to that.
Three, users would need to create a GitHub account, and a poll I conducted on my thread a few months back indicated that less than 5% would be willing, with 95% saying "I will just leave the bug unreported".

You can say what you want about "people like that never submit useful reports", but it is simply untrue. Indeed, many of my real bug reports also come from random people.
 
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For what it's worth, I apologize if I offended you or helped spread misinformation. Wasnt my intention.

And yeah, the mod user community can be pretty rabid. This isn't the first time that people have raged against a dev, and this will definitely be the last.

Also, that new version is much better. I like knowing when the updates are coming out, and this is only intrusive once. This will make me better aware to update.

Though.. The old banner did block my jet pack power level. So uh.. Yeah. Reika mods killed me. Omg.
 
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