As per the rules if you have a problem with a mod or their actions talk to a global. Arguing about this in public is a bad idea. I'd rather not see this thread get locked because of this stuff.
Recent Events Discussion (RED) Thread
- Thread starter VapourDrive
- Start date
As per the rules if you have a problem with a mod or their actions talk to a global. Arguing about this in public is a bad idea. I'd rather not see this thread get locked because of this stuff.
There was a debate on PC vs. Mac, as well as one on the legality of mods and EULAs. Neither one of those usually ends in a positive place, especially the latter.
It's also generally better for the more heated debates to get their own topics once they start heating up--that way, if/when things get out of hand, I don't have to lock this thread while I clean it up.
Thanks Flipz. Clarification greatly appreciated.
Reika, the way I see it you are subverting the core concept of ProjectE when you ask that your raw materials be blacklisted. The point of EMC has been, since way back in the mists of time when Xeno first looked at his massive storage room full of double chests, all packed to the gills with cobblestone: turn something you find currently useless into something you find currently useful in an equivalent (and therefore theoretically balanced) way. Ask anyone that uses the mod, ask Xenophobe, ask sinkillerj.
Removing your stuff from the equation means that I can't transmute to *or* from them, or anything made from them. Which means if I currently need diamonds and I tied up all my iron (and a bunch of gunpowder, charcoal, and sand) in HSLA Steel. You're basically saying to the Project E user: Too bad, shouldn't have used my mod or you'd have access to all that EMC!
And I still can't see how having to break the gate yourself before you can turn diamonds into HSLA, or Tungsten, or Bedrock Ingots if you need them, after the point that you can already legitimately obtain them is unbalanced. Assuming single player (or a server that won't share beyond tech gates), I have to prove that I understand the mechanics of your mod to the point that I can make some material before I can use Project E to make more out of equivalent stuff. From every argument I've ever seen about your gates and balance strategy, this is perfectly in-line. I proved my knowledge, understanding, engineering, and ingenuity to a degree that lets me make your material. If I want to temporarily spend effort on something I find to be easier, or I found something useless to me, and wish to use it to power the process of making more of your material via your power tree, or via Project E... what's the difference? I could make more "your way". I've already proven that. I just made it a different (equivalent) way.
Now if equivalency is where you're having the problem, that the relative worth of say... a diamond to a sintered tungsten ingot (Which is probably about 1:2 with the current valuation scheme if PE could read your processes... I'm not doing the stats/math necessary to work out the EMC from scratch for a simple thought exercise), that's what the IMC system was designed to correct. It's there so that mod authors, server operators, and pack builders can fix exploits like the old blaze rod > macerator > condenser infinite loop, or tweak the balance to be more in line with their vision. The other thing is that by default? Nothing in your mod that requires a custom crafting mechanic has EMC value. Which means the pack builder put it in there deliberately. Which bypasses every blacklist you have access to anyway from what I understand.
What I know I'm taking issue with is the flat-out blacklist. No raw material should be blacklisted from Project E, because that's the whole point of Project E. I can turn my useless X into useful Y at an exchange rate, and back again or even into something else. Maybe I find a stack of HSLA in a dungeon chest. Would you rather I throw it out because it's useless to me and space is precious, or turn it into building blocks and food that I need right now? Now ChromatiCraft? There I can see a good reason for an actual blacklist if you can corrupt worlds or permanently block progression by getting things you're not supposed to have access to yet. None of the rest of your mods do that though.
But at this point I'm just grasping at straws. Why do you not like your materials being able to be EMC'd @Reika? Can you explain it to us? Because from this side it doesn't make any sense, hence the long walls of text trying to explain the mod and its design philosophy to you.
Reika, the way I see it you are subverting the core concept of ProjectE when you ask that your raw materials be blacklisted. The point of EMC has been, since way back in the mists of time when Xeno first looked at his massive storage room full of double chests, all packed to the gills with cobblestone: turn something you find currently useless into something you find currently useful in an equivalent (and therefore theoretically balanced) way. Ask anyone that uses the mod, ask Xenophobe, ask sinkillerj.
Removing your stuff from the equation means that I can't transmute to *or* from them, or anything made from them. Which means if I currently need diamonds and I tied up all my iron (and a bunch of gunpowder, charcoal, and sand) in HSLA Steel. You're basically saying to the Project E user: Too bad, shouldn't have used my mod or you'd have access to all that EMC!
And I still can't see how having to break the gate yourself before you can turn diamonds into HSLA, or Tungsten, or Bedrock Ingots if you need them, after the point that you can already legitimately obtain them is unbalanced. Assuming single player (or a server that won't share beyond tech gates), I have to prove that I understand the mechanics of your mod to the point that I can make some material before I can use Project E to make more out of equivalent stuff. From every argument I've ever seen about your gates and balance strategy, this is perfectly in-line. I proved my knowledge, understanding, engineering, and ingenuity to a degree that lets me make your material. If I want to temporarily spend effort on something I find to be easier, or I found something useless to me, and wish to use it to power the process of making more of your material via your power tree, or via Project E... what's the difference? I could make more "your way". I've already proven that. I just made it a different (equivalent) way.
Now if equivalency is where you're having the problem, that the relative worth of say... a diamond to a sintered tungsten ingot (Which is probably about 1:2 with the current valuation scheme if PE could read your processes... I'm not doing the stats/math necessary to work out the EMC from scratch for a simple thought exercise), that's what the IMC system was designed to correct. It's there so that mod authors, server operators, and pack builders can fix exploits like the old blaze rod > macerator > condenser infinite loop, or tweak the balance to be more in line with their vision. The other thing is that by default? Nothing in your mod that requires a custom crafting mechanic has EMC value. Which means the pack builder put it in there deliberately. Which bypasses every blacklist you have access to anyway from what I understand.
What I know I'm taking issue with is the flat-out blacklist. No raw material should be blacklisted from Project E, because that's the whole point of Project E. I can turn my useless X into useful Y at an exchange rate, and back again or even into something else. Maybe I find a stack of HSLA in a dungeon chest. Would you rather I throw it out because it's useless to me and space is precious, or turn it into building blocks and food that I need right now? Now ChromatiCraft? There I can see a good reason for an actual blacklist if you can corrupt worlds or permanently block progression by getting things you're not supposed to have access to yet. None of the rest of your mods do that though.
But at this point I'm just grasping at straws. Why do you not like your materials being able to be EMC'd @Reika? Can you explain it to us? Because from this side it doesn't make any sense, hence the long walls of text trying to explain the mod and its design philosophy to you.
That depends on how you define raw materials. I have much less of a problem with things like HSLA than I do techtree gating materials like bedrock or tungsten. Yes, technically HSLA is too, but rather less so. That said, due to it spawning in the world in small quantities, it is the most easily abusable if it has an EMC value, as the player may never need to create it properly.
I have nothing against turning my items into EMC - much like I have nothing against you adding recipes using my items, even gating ones - but the EMC API has never allowed for one-way conversions like that.
Because there is a huge difference between making one of something and making a useful quantity. The former can be done much earlier and more easily - possibly even as a fluke! - while the latter requires the actual intended hardware, and automation requires much more hardware and knowledge still.
Also, in a multiplayer environment, this opens up the possibility of "can I borrow a bedrock ingot just for a second" types of cheating, and that means the whole "yes, high end RC can destroy a world, but griefers will not get that far" argument falls apart, and that then means server admins will clamor for nerfs to the point of uselessness.
Additionally, Project E has the Tome, which has every recipe "built in", and though it is disabled by default, I can say from experience that the vast majority of those playing Project E will have it enabled, and that people using Project E for RC are doing it not because doing it the RC way is harder - assuming you are halfway competent with the mod, it might actually be easier - but because they do not want to have to bother to start with. There have been several examples of people complaining on these very forums about exactly that from when I first added the blacklist, with one user notably getting very aggressive and saying I was "forcing them to play my way" if I wanted them to use RC to get RC.
So you install progression mods and then complain that you have to progress.
http://forum.feed-the-beast.com/thr...ycraft-suggestions.46206/page-128#post-932156
Sound familiar? It is exactly like the magnetostatics.
First it started uncapped and unlimited, and allowed people to totally bypass RC powergen and machinery.
Then I added the first tiering (the easy pre-v3 one), but there was a problem: while you needed some RC hardware to get one, but once you got one, it was trivial to make more and brute-force your way through. Additionally, people reacted exactly the same, complaining all over these forums about how I was forcing them to play RC to get RC, when all they wanted was an Extractor and bedrock tools. The word "resent" was used repeatedly.
Finally, the idea of making my materials from EMC is wildly unrealistic, and to me is wholly destructive to the whole feel of RC, much the same as something like jet fuel bees would be.
That is exactly the same as Minetweaker (i.e. nothing changes unless the pack maker or server admin manually does it), and you know full well how well that went.
Last edited:
Hmm, trying to keep an insular mod balance in a public realm seems like a troublesome and possibly maddening undertaking.
There's too many variables, too many feet stepped on.
As cheap as EE is I don't think the effort however minor put in to blacklisting it is worth it. Either way someone willing to play a pack with EE in it never really cared about balance or progression in the first place.
I am starting to wonder just what Reika gets out of modding? It can't be joy that's for sure.
Say what you want about his abrasive demeanor (It really is) but if I was subject to just 10% the stuff He claims to go through I'd have either quit, gone mad or gone the way of the Greg and constructed myself a loyal echo chamber of yes men.
There's too many variables, too many feet stepped on.
As cheap as EE is I don't think the effort however minor put in to blacklisting it is worth it. Either way someone willing to play a pack with EE in it never really cared about balance or progression in the first place.
I am starting to wonder just what Reika gets out of modding? It can't be joy that's for sure.
Say what you want about his abrasive demeanor (It really is) but if I was subject to just 10% the stuff He claims to go through I'd have either quit, gone mad or gone the way of the Greg and constructed myself a loyal echo chamber of yes men.
As opposed to the alternative, with daily harassment over things not working or being overpowered?
I have had a lot of experience with being harassed.
You forgot the Azanor option (or so I hear), where you simply withdraw from the community by and large and do your thing largely isolated from everything else. If this is true, I imagine he probably has a trusted core of beta testers or something who can actually tolerate interacting with the community at large, and can handle things such as bug reports and the day-to-day 10 year old 'how i install mod' crew.
As mentioned before, I tried having a liason. He did far more damage than simply not communicating would have done.
Also, I am not willing to pull out entirely, because I am active in both my mods' topics and more fundamental philosophical discussions.
I don't thing the word harassed is apt enough to describe the things you have described.
As I remember saying; It's like you use a potent fuck knuckle pheromone as a cologne every morning.
From what he has described, I think it is more that people just feel threatened by his intelligence.
Harassment. From random individuals with no connection to each other making individual complants?
That's not harassment. That's being a
If you think other devs don't get the same thing you would probably be mistaken.
I'd suggest asking some of them.
I have, and many have told me people are either more vitriolic and/or more outspoken to me. Nor is that surprising; many of my mods tend to make people of below average intelligence cry (and lower than average intelligence is positively correlated with infantile behavior and selfishness), and I have some opinions that some people have taken great offence to.
Some maybe, but a lot just can tell I am...different.
???
Lets not ask about bedrock dust bees, or tungsten bees ...
(besides, what could they possibly use as flowers?)
Ironberry bush !, you did ask, would make sense well kind of, or better would be iron & aluminum, only mods that scan for 2 items I have noticed are farming mods, crop sticks.
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
Actually EMC Bedrock, or Bedrocking bees would be ok, because the ultimate raw form of Reika's bedrock is the vanilla block itself- so as long as it produces/crafts into that you're golden.
(Obviously pissing off every server admin in the process, I can already hear them yelling Griefers!!)
That's why any admin worth their salt has automated, frequent backups. If a troll decides to be a prissy little d-bag, then you can ban him straight away (or do what I'd do and find a way to stick him in a realm of eternal torment) and undo the damage they did with minimal loss to your actual players. That's how a real moderator handles trolls, anywhere. Either flush 'em, or point them out so everyone can laugh at them together.