Petroleum Generator (A Forestry-esque BC/IC crossover mod)
- Thread starter DrCeph
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Finished all the TC3 research for now so I finally got around to processing the oil and setting up a few petrogens, I like the balance they output a reasonable amount of EU for the running cost the only small problem is they are significantly more expensive compared to the closest current gen which would be the Geothermal (which is admittedly horribly undercosted) they are not only more expensive in their own recipe, especially the iron which I am constantly short on, but they require infrastructure in place as well (tanks\refineries).Lol, it's cool man: I derailed my own thread in the IC2 forums talking about Railcraft too - I love that mod! I think it is because my father never bought me that model train set when I was a child
I'd love to hear what you think of it (the mod) regarding balance (especially with the 0.10 changes). It's important to me that it feels balanced to people that use it, but I can only think of so many ways that people play minecraft and its associated mods.
+1 to that! TC3 is probably my fav so far in the wave of post MC1.3.1 mods coming out.
Personally I like the balance point of the cost they do output enough to be a decent power source (even when Gregtech and the requirement for consistent power is involved) but in a free for all map they will probably be overlooked in favor of the broken Geogens, in a challenge map where lava is a finite resource (which with TE it isn't, but burning cobble for lava is somewhat expensive) I think they hit the sweet spot where they do cost a reasonable amount but they do also have a significant effect on IC2 power gen.
Just my thoughts on them after setting them up (8) and running a bit of processing (several stacks of tin\iron\copper\pyrite and even a bit of Bauxite just for the hell of it) through my Gregtech\IC2 setup with the Geogens disabled
Burning cobble will always result in a loss - netherrack is the only actual gain. There's a pretty good chance of this value getting tweaked in the future as well.
As far as this mod goes - I like it! Given how much fuel and oil are worth in BC, you could maybe adjust the values upward slightly and it wouldn't really throw the balance point off. As is, you're going 3:1 vs the "coal" ratio of 1:2.5; and I agree completely with the idea that the 1:2.5 is shortsighted and insane. Still, that makes these a 13% efficient conversion, which is maybe a bit low. (RL large-scale plants are 30-40% from fossil to electricity, bumping this to 25% would be reasonable in terms of physics and game balance.)
Edit: 25% would mean 375k EU from a bucket of fuel.
Burning cobble will always result in a loss - netherrack is the only actual gain. There's a pretty good chance of this value getting tweaked in the future as well.
Not really; you just need an engine that runs on lava which outputs more energy per bucket than it costs to make one with cobblestone, which is what the Railcraft Steam Boiler does. There are a few infinite-lava tutorials in these forums.
Burning cobble will always result in a loss - netherrack is the only actual gain. There's a pretty good chance of this value getting tweaked in the future as well.
As far as this mod goes - I like it! Given how much fuel and oil are worth in BC, you could maybe adjust the values upward slightly and it wouldn't really throw the balance point off. As is, you're going 3:1 vs the "coal" ratio of 1:2.5; and I agree completely with the idea that the 1:2.5 is shortsighted and insane. Still, that makes these a 13% efficient conversion, which is maybe a bit low. (RL large-scale plants are 30-40% from fossil to electricity, bumping this to 25% would be reasonable in terms of physics and game balance.)
Edit: 25% would mean 375k EU from a bucket of fuel.
ACtually I'd like to correct you a bit on RL efficiencies.
A steam generator can be around 30% to 40% efficient. An IC engine is not. IC engines trade their fuel efficiency against compactness.
they generally average between 18/20% efficient unless decked out with a bunch of expensive turbochargers and whatnot. And that is for making KE energy. turning that into electricity introduces another 10% - 20% losses. I think between 10%-15% cycle efficiency in electricity generation is a pretty fair trade imho. especially since IC heavy builds don't generally use that much oil to begin with. and oil is pretty plentiful to boot. more so than lava in my worlds
It makes perfect sense that a RC steam boiler is more fuel efficient than this generator since the Steam boiler generator setup is waay more costly and complex to set up in the first place. also it reflects the higher efficiencies of such systems.
I'd still use this oil generator in places where i either did not have the steel for making a boiler, or the room to place a boiler setup. I'ts a perfect match for the bio generator imho. especially since IC heavy builds usually have tons of surplus oil anyway. That being said. in big fixed power hungry bases i would still prefer the steam generator just for the sake of it begin much more fuel efficient. but that just mirrors RL where small generators like the one made by the op is generally only used in niche applications for emergency power and as standalone generators in places where there is no grid access, and the energy need is not large enough to warrant a bigger build.
Notice the "large scale" qualifier, hence why I said 25% was reasonable. Heck, if you get to large scale, a combined Brayton Cycle can even reach 60% efficiency.
I agree completely that an RC steam boiler should be much more efficient; do note that even with my suggestion this is still the case. In fact, the RC steam turbine will still have 2.5x the efficiency of this block even if it were at 25%.
I agree completely that an RC steam boiler should be much more efficient; do note that even with my suggestion this is still the case.
In fact, the RC steam turbine will still have 2.5x the efficiency of this block even if it were at 25%.Notice the "large scale" qualifier, hence why I said 25% was reasonable. Heck, if you get to large scale, a combined Brayton Cycle can even reach 60% efficiency.
I agree completely that an RC steam boiler should be much more efficient; do note that even with my suggestion this is still the case.
Well. I personaly feel that 25% is a bit much tbh. edpecially considering a generator that is only the size of the one most people use at their moutnain cabin to feed the lights. But hey. I also have reservations against the macerator and pulverizer only being the size of dishwashers too. it kinda feels wrong to me. go figure. The important thing is that these generators should be balanced from a gameplay perspective, and I think this one is. Now if only someone would rebalance the pulverizer and macerator to be more in line with the stone crusher.
Now don't get me started on how silly the geothermal and magmatic engines really appear once you start thinking about it. but hey. It's minecraft. A world where you can put a bucket of lava in your pocket without being burned, and that will stay nice and warm litterally forever unless used for something.
I agree that game balance matters more than anything else ultimately - my comment stands.
I'll adjust the Pulverizer to be in line with the rock crusher when it can also create diamond and gold out of cobblestone. (It will never do that.)
The magmatic engine I agree with you on, it's completely absurd. But it's the answer to the IC2 geothermal, and it burns through a lot of lava. The Crucible values are being tweaked for the next release to prevent the lava from being useful in geothermals, as that wasn't really the intention. IC2 power is trivial enough, I don't need to add to that.
I'll adjust the Pulverizer to be in line with the rock crusher when it can also create diamond and gold out of cobblestone. (It will never do that.)
The magmatic engine I agree with you on, it's completely absurd. But it's the answer to the IC2 geothermal, and it burns through a lot of lava. The Crucible values are being tweaked for the next release to prevent the lava from being useful in geothermals, as that wasn't really the intention. IC2 power is trivial enough, I don't need to add to that.
Awww bugger back to RSI for me from clicking to fill the cells, actually nah I'll just have to abuse that other lovely machine of yours, the transposer
Seriously though the magma crucible is not the problem it's the severly undercosted Geogen that is the problem hmm maybe I should mention it in the Gregtech thread.....
Finished all the TC3 research for now so I finally got around to processing the oil and setting up a few petrogens, I like the balance they output a reasonable amount of EU for the running cost the only small problem is they are significantly more expensive compared to the closest current gen which would be the Geothermal (which is admittedly horribly undercosted) they are not only more expensive in their own recipe, especially the iron which I am constantly short on, but they require infrastructure in place as well (tanks\refineries).
Personally I like the balance point of the cost they do output enough to be a decent power source (even when Gregtech and the requirement for consistent power is involved) but in a free for all map they will probably be overlooked in favor of the broken Geogens, in a challenge map where lava is a finite resource (which with TE it isn't, but burning cobble for lava is somewhat expensive) I think they hit the sweet spot where they do cost a reasonable amount but they do also have a significant effect on IC2 power gen.
Just my thoughts on them after setting them up (8) and running a bit of processing (several stacks of tin\iron\copper\pyrite and even a bit of Bauxite just for the hell of it) through my Gregtech\IC2 setup with the Geogens disabled
Yeah the cost of the Geothermal is the pain in my behind with this mod - they are way too cheap! My current focus would be more likely to make the generator more efficient at burning fuel as opposed to making it cheaper (see below). Especially after some discussions with peeps on the IC2 forum where they felt the current recipe was good, but to make the generator worth the cost. It is still definitely cheaper than the steam/fuel/turbine alternative, which I would think of as tier2 of this generator. Damn you geothermal!!
Burning cobble will always result in a loss - netherrack is the only actual gain. There's a pretty good chance of this value getting tweaked in the future as well.
As far as this mod goes - I like it! Given how much fuel and oil are worth in BC, you could maybe adjust the values upward slightly and it wouldn't really throw the balance point off. As is, you're going 3:1 vs the "coal" ratio of 1:2.5; and I agree completely with the idea that the 1:2.5 is shortsighted and insane. Still, that makes these a 13% efficient conversion, which is maybe a bit low. (RL large-scale plants are 30-40% from fossil to electricity, bumping this to 25% would be reasonable in terms of physics and game balance.)
Edit: 25% would mean 375k EU from a bucket of fuel.
When I punched in the initial numbers for the mod I was using the forestry BioGenerator as a basis. The mistake I had made there was ignoring the fact that the BioGenerator output had to be relatively low given that it was using very accessible renewable resources. That's left me floundering a bit since I realised it. I've since doubled the output (to 200k/fuel). Your argument here is pretty much in line with what the guys at the IC2 forums have been saying which is that it is a step in the right direction, but not quite there. Whilst I want this machine to be less efficient than using a system like the boiler/turbine setup (I feel that the complex infrastructure deserves the reward), I don't want it to be entirely useless either.
I was looking at about 300k/fuel, so around the 20% mark but 25% makes a lot of sense to, especially in comparison with other mods in the pack (i.e. the boiler/turbine route). I think that having a 2/5 to 1/3 efficiency of the turbine setup is reasonable given the much simpler setup. I don't want this to be a 'yet another overpowered generator' mod, but I'm also not a masochist
EDIT: I think I would probably lean towards the 20% mark given that the boiler/turbine system exists as the next step.
With the generator I think of it as being somewhere in the middle of the genny up at the log cabin and the one they have in the basement of a hospital. From a gameplay perspective I see it as important that the generator is a good stepping stone to setting up some lava farming infrastructure or a boiler/turbine system running on fuel. The other obvious benefit is the portability aspect: having a bucket or two of fuel (or a stack with forestry) and the generator in your pocket to run systems at a remote location where you may be setting up a mining output or some other infrastructure.
You make a point about current IC generators sitting at around the 18-20% mark, which is in line with what (a lot of) the peeps on the IC2 board have been saying which would sit the generator at about 300k per bucket. I've been hearing enough valid arguments from the ~300k camp to start shifting my thinking to their points (especially as many of the guys saying it have played modded MC much longer than me). This still makes it attractive to move to the turbine, but also makes it attractive to use in the portability scenario as well. Especially in the situation where you haven't got forestry installed and cannot stack fuel containers.
yeah. IC2 power is way too trivial with the geogens. even without exploiting the nether. ordinary liquid tp pipes and a pump setup can let you get thousands of buckets worth of lava with minimal effort. just have to dig around level 12 in a straight line for a couple hundred blocks and you are bound to hit a pretty big pool of the stuff.
I find the same to be mostly true with the magmatic engines too. altho they are not as bad as the geogens. a fair balance would maybe be to have the magmatics be slightly better than a geogen/electric engine pair?.
The absurdity of using lava as a fuel was introduced by mojang itself, so that part is here to stay regardless. I've never used enough magma based power sources to actually ever run out of lava in the overworld... and i use geogens and the magmatic engine to just get rid of the stuff without void piping it most of the time. it's in the way for finding juicy diamonds after all. (void piping feels wrong somehow.... it breaks immersion. managing the disposal of waste should be part of the game imho.)
It's the same with oil tbh. I never seem to run out. I'm a big hoarder tho, so whenever a source runs out i take the pump tower down and move it to the next one out. I sometimes have tank towers reaching far into the sky filled with lava, oil, and biofuel. and with the creosote oil from RC now being a proper liquid i also keep making towering tanks of that too.
you can guess where most of my cobble ends up.. got to keep that sand flowing in for more tanks.
Re: the cost of the pulverizer and macerator. They are imho a bit cheap for what they do. I didn't mean to imply that they should cost 12 diamonds. that would be absurd. there has to be an extra cost for the extra chance at diamonds the rock crusher gives. I think the gregtech change of demanding 3 diamonds for the macerator is a pretty fair price in my mind tho, and i would love to see an option to influence the cost of the pulverizer trough the options file. say an easy mode(default) and a hard mode (optional) for the old timers that wants to feel the pain of having to start choosing what to spend their diamonds on again. I haven't really had to make any hard choices like that in a loooong time.
Hard Mode is already available as a config option in Thermal Expansion adds diamonds to both the pulveriser and the smelter.
It is? sweet. I guess i got to dive down into the configs of TE then. making these items require diamonds would put them right in line with the Gregtech changed macerator.
Incidentially it also makes the stone crusher seem less overpriced with it's 12 diamond requirement too. since i wouldnt be getting the ore doubling as cheaply.
I really do like the pulverizer tho. that chance to get some nice resources that can be (time consumingly) turned into gunpowder is awesome. I luv me some dynamite mining.
Yeah pretty much this.
I really thought you meant the energy cost, because to be honest, resources aren't a balancing measure. It might change the order in which you get things, but realistically those first few diamonds go towards the ore increase. Not the most interesting dynamic really, it just moves the goalposts.I added the options not because I genuinely think there's a need for a nerf, but for parity with IC2 when GregTech is installed, if that is what is wanted.
TE ore generation is actually balanced around the assumption that a Pulverizer will be present. If you play the mod on its own (yeah I know, why?), you'll see how the interactions work.
Yeah pretty much this.
I added the options not because I genuinely think there's a need for a nerf, but for parity with IC2 when GregTech is installed, if that is what is wanted.
TE ore generation is actually balanced around the assumption that a Pulverizer will be present. If you play the mod on its own (yeah I know, why?), you'll see how the interactions work.
That is the only way a mod author of a mod that is supposed to be capable of stand alone operation has to balance stuff. I'd never fault anyone from basing their balance on that. Having config options for helping to change the balance somewhat in relation to other mods is very nice to have tho. I'm grateful that there is one. thanks!
When it comes to the materials balance i don't care as much. I always have a big surplus of everything after a while. the only thing i keep being limited by is ender pearls.. but with twilight forest adding ender spawners that part is changing in FTB as well. endermen aren't hard to kill at all.
This and @Antice's follow up are two really good points. Balance is a difficult enough thing to achieve in a static setting such as vanilla minecraft, let along the dynamic balance you get with a modded version. Adding or removing a mod or two can rapidly change the feel of the game and the balance of resources.
For example with this mod having forestry installed suddenly makes it incredibly powerful for portable generation for the cost of a few tin or bees due to stackable cans of fuel. Using only IC2 and buildcraft? Different feel again. All I can do is try to find a sensible default when using the bare minimum of mods (which in this case is BC and IC2). Hence the configuration option for people who want to change it for their configuration.
@KL, I feel your pain with Lava: you've got your work cut out for you there with different mods out there having vastly different valuations of lava power! For what its worth I reckon your mod is one of the most balanced of the tech mods that I've used.
0.14 update brings the following additions:
Note: you will need to delete your drceph.petrogen.cfg file in the minecraft/config directory to see/use the new fuel to EU ratios.
- More better fuel power boost! - Fuel/oil now give 300k and 30k EU, respectively. Previous values were still over-nerfed considering they are non-renewable resources, making them unattractive compared to sources such as lava and biofuel.
- Less shaving required!* - Increased the output to 25 EU/t for fuel so that you won't be sporting a five o'clock shadow by the time one bucket is consumed.
- More simpler recipe! - was still complicated to build with some ingredients being third-(crafting)tier items. Costs now in line with Geothermal and TE Magma/steam engines - the Petroleum generator's natural predators.
- Pretty! - the texture of the block now differs if the generator is active - you can now see if you're burning the midnight oil at a glance.
Note: you will need to delete your drceph.petrogen.cfg file in the minecraft/config directory to see/use the new fuel to EU ratios.