Performance in the next pack?

[Azzanine]

Broseph, just because you used simple addons, doesn't mean everyone did or complex ones did not exist. Besides that, you fully missed the point. Minecraft needs a official API thats surrounding a core designed for extention, Wow had that, thats why the addons preformed so well.

That and WoW UI does not do as much as minecraft mods do. As I said the main function of most WoW UI enhancement plugins was to display data in different ways hardly altering a thing in the game (as it was forbidden). Some also delt with provideing alternative ways of using macros in a smooth visual way. So the API is not the only thing keeping the addons light weight. They are light weight becasue that's all they need to be.

I'm just saying it's a bad example. WoW UI plugins are nowhere near as heavy. You could point to something like Gary's Mod and their extensions/ content and I would have given nary a peep.

That being said I haven't played wow in 2 years, I have no idea how much has changed on the custom WoW UI front. But I still don't think I'm wrong.

 

[Quesenek]

That CPU is a massive bottleneck. There is no AMD CPU right now that will not be in FTB in the middle of all the mod stuff ingame.
Youd be wise to save up for a intel motherboard and a 3570K and OC it to 4.2-4.5Ghz. Understand that this cpu clocked at 2Ghz will still beat yours clocked at 3 (or even close to 4 for that matter). This will remove the CPU as the bottleneck in ALL games, even if you get a 690GTX or 7990.

I learned from experiance, and regret my PhenomII 965BE buy, 4Ghz on this thing and its still crushed by FTB with a 460GTX. All other games are fine. FTB eats CPUs.

Incorrect. Minecraft, and esp FTB are very CPU bound. It aint hard to render tiny textures. I can assume you if he slapped a Sli 690GTX setup in that computer he would have zero performance increase, and his GPUs would be sitting at 3% usage in his city and one of his CPU cores would be struggling its lil heart out as its doing now. When he leaves his city the framerate will shoot up again, but this doesn't fix anything.

This is So much my story its unbelievable.
I had a phenom II x4 clocked @ 4.1Ghz (Fastest on air I could get) with a HD6970 and I was getting 20 FPS on FTB beta A with optifine and no texture pack when I first Spawned into the world with no machines at all. I have a mac with an intel core2duo clocked at 2.6Ghz with a 9600gtm and it got higher FPS without optifine than my main PC did with it. I currently have an Intel 3570k clocked at 4.5Ghz and I get 100-200 FPS in the craziest laggyest areas of my ultimate server. I did a little test on a vechs map that I had running on a 1.5.2 server and on my main PC I had optifine and the 256x sphax texturepack and I was getting 100-150 FPS the entire time.

TLDR: Never buy AMD CPU's They are sheit and are not worth the savings compared to Intel. YOU WILL REGRET NOT BUYING INTEL. I have soooo many people in my programming classes that have not listened to me and they have personally told me they should have just gone and bought the real deal which is Intel.

 

[Bigglesworth]

That and WoW UI does not do as much as minecraft mods do. As I said the main function of most WoW UI enhancement plugins was to display data in different ways hardly altering a thing in the game (as it was forbidden). Some also delt with provideing alternative ways of using macros in a smooth visual way. So the API is not the only thing keeping the addons light weight. They are light weight becasue that's all they need to be.

I'm just saying it's a bad example. WoW UI plugins are nowhere near as heavy. You could point to something like Gary's Mod and their extensions/ content and I would have given nary a peep.

That being said I haven't played wow in 2 years, I have no idea how much has changed on the custom WoW UI front. But I still don't think I'm wrong.

They are nowhere near as heavy, because they have a proper API. Not because they arnt doing a shit ton of arithmetic. They are simply not being forced to do it in a backasswards way.

Next time you're in a 40 man battleground while your DPS meter is trying to keep up, you tell me how much math and heavy lifting it isnt doing with no distinguishable framerate loss. Fact is, merely placing some blocks in minecraft will result in framerate loss for no good reason. Try and place 50 or so conduits in a flatworld with vsync off. I am certain those conduits are doing far less than that DPS meter in such a situation. Not even close.

This is So much my story its unbelievable.

Just want a 3570k more now.

 

[NTaylor]

This is So much my story its unbelievable.
I had a phenom II x4 clocked @ 4.1Ghz (Fastest on air I could get) with a HD6970 and I was getting 20 FPS on FTB beta A with optifine and no texture pack when I first Spawned into the world with no machines at all. I have a mac with an intel core2duo clocked at 2.6Ghz with a 9600gtm and it got higher FPS without optifine than my main PC did with it. I currently have an Intel 3570k clocked at 4.5Ghz and I get 100-200 FPS in the craziest laggyest areas of my ultimate server. I did a little test on a vechs map that I had running on a 1.5.2 server and on my main PC I had optifine and the 256x sphax texturepack and I was getting 100-150 FPS the entire time.

TLDR: Never buy AMD CPU's They are sheit and are not worth the savings compared to Intel. YOU WILL REGRET NOT BUYING INTEL. I have soooo many people in my programming classes that have not listened to me and they have personally told me they should have just gone and bought the real deal which is Intel.

My FX8350 on 1.5.2 clocked at 4GHz and HD 7970 with 83 mods running on a newly generated world clocks around 300-400 FPS no problem on a 128x Sphax and so far asside from a few lag spikes which based on where and when they have happened Im pretty sure is more based on the mods/minecraft than the power available in my pretty damned heavy world that has a lot of stuff running with a lot of automation I get around 150-200 FPS running around my main base. That is with 3 other ages chunk loaded as well as a large area around my base chunk loaded too.

Back on 1.5.1 I was running a Phenom X6 1090t at 3.2 GHz with HD6850 and rarely did I drop below 60 FPS with over 100 mods running.

Both of them are without optifine as well.

I have never had a problem running MC or any other game TBH on an AMD processor that would lead me to justify the extra price for the intel processors.

 

[Mash]

I hadn't tried optifine since I started using FTB, so I gave it a shot.

I disabled it within five minutes because even at the absolute lowest garbage graphic settings, I was somehow getting HALF of my fps without it. So, there's that.

 

[fergcraft]

ya optifine works for some but I had even worse with it until I changed fps down now I just run lower settings

Edit: never mind made it lag like crazy on ultimate 1.02

 

[Quesenek]

My FX8350 on 1.5.2 clocked at 4GHz and HD 7970 with 83 mods running on a newly generated world clocks around 300-400 FPS no problem on a 128x Sphax and so far asside from a few lag spikes which based on where and when they have happened Im pretty sure is more based on the mods/minecraft than the power available in my pretty damned heavy world that has a lot of stuff running with a lot of automation I get around 150-200 FPS running around my main base. That is with 3 other ages chunk loaded as well as a large area around my base chunk loaded too.

Back on 1.5.1 I was running a Phenom X6 1090t at 3.2 GHz with HD6850 and rarely did I drop below 60 FPS with over 100 mods running.

Both of them are without optifine as well.

I have never had a problem running MC or any other game TBH on an AMD processor that would lead me to justify the extra price for the intel processors.

Well a FX8350 is within spitting distance from the price of a i5 3570k and I have heard mixed reviews floating around the internet on how well the CPU actually works.
The thing that makes Intel work so much better is that it doesn't bottleneck the system like AMD has been proven to do. In my experience and others that I have talked to a system running an Intel CPU will seem like it is running faster on a system that has better components that work well together than a system that has an AMD CPU running the exact same components running on a comparable MOBO.

BTW just wondering what FPS do you get with 30 chunk loaders maxed out over 25 or so dimensions and about 50 or so timers on .2 seconds on an ultimate 1.0.2 world?
My CPU doesn't take a hit in single player however my server lags a tiny bit.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

They are nowhere near as heavy, because they have a proper API. Not because they arnt doing a shit ton of arithmetic. They are simply not being forced to do it in a backasswards way.

Next time you're in a 40 man battleground while your DPS meter is trying to keep up, you tell me how much math and heavy lifting it isnt doing with no distinguishable framerate loss. Fact is, merely placing some blocks in minecraft will result in framerate loss for no good reason. Try and place 50 or so conduits in a flatworld with vsync off. I am certain those conduits are doing far less than that DPS meter in such a situation. Not even close.

No, that's pathetically easy and simple. All you are doing is taking numbers that are already being crunched by the server and displaying them for the end-user.

LUA script is pathetically lightweight, which is what WoW addons are written in. If you can program ComputerCraft code, you can write WoW addons. It's that simple and easy to do.

Besides, even if it had to calculate mean DPS by itself client-side, that's still a pathetically easy calculation to keep up with. It's just basic math, hell DORVAC could keep up with that. The equation is:

(running tally of damage dealt by player) / (running tally of number of seconds since the calculation first started)

Then you just have a throttle that says 'if it doesn't produce damage in x seconds, reset both running tallies'.

If you are getting fancy, you save that value to a variable to further calculate into raid-long DPS averages, peak DPS during raid, and other such figures.

That's easy.

Base class reflections and adding in new libraries? THAT's a whole magnitude larger. Several magnitudes, on a logarithmic scale.

WoW addons are pathetically easy because WoW comes with a core function that functions... well... rather like ComputerCraft actually. It interprets LUA code in certain ways. It won't let you write code it doesn't like (such as actually changing game mechanics, warping, or other such shenanigans).

In fact, the more I look at it, the better the comparison between WoW addons and ComputerCraft programs are. It's something created by the user running to make his gaming experience better. Written in a lightweight and stripped down version of LUA. And takes almost no CPU usage.

 

[Bigglesworth]

No, that's pathetically easy and simple. All you are doing is taking numbers that are already being crunched by the server and displaying them for the end-user.

LUA script is pathetically lightweight, which is what WoW addons are written in. If you can program ComputerCraft code, you can write WoW addons. It's that simple and easy to do.
.

Minecraft mods could also be "pathetically" light weight as well. The the whole point of what I was saying.

A.

P.

I.

Forge is great and mature, but its still limited by what Mojang hands us and a very dated core than never accounted for this sort of customization. Also, I'd love to see you programm a "pathetically simple" actuate DPS meter in wow if you think its childsplay. Also, I dont know what computercraft code you look at, but they are not all as simple as you make it seem. They are easier than doing it in java and more fitting for modding imo for the majority of people. (or python)

Well a FX8350 is within spitting distance from the price of a i5 3570k and I have heard mixed reviews floating around the internet on how well the CPU actually works.

The thing that makes Intel work so much better is that it doesn't bottleneck the system like AMD has been proven to do. In my experience and others that I have talked to a system running an Intel CPU will seem like it is running faster on a system that has better components that work well together than a system that has an AMD CPU running the exact same components running on a comparable MOBO.

BTW just wondering what FPS do you get with 30 chunk loaders maxed out over 25 or so dimensions and about 50 or so timers on .2 seconds on an ultimate 1.0.2 world?
My CPU doesn't take a hit in single player however my server lags a tiny bit.

Chunk loaders are irrelevant to framerate performance as long as you have ample RAM. They can cause a different sort of lag though (tick lag). FPS is impacted by where your player currently is and the machines youre close to. Why you would have 50 timers on .2 sec I cant even guess and that could cause some FPS lag just by sheer number

My FX8350 on 1.5.2 clocked at 4GHz and HD 7970 with 83 mods running on a newly generated world clocks around 300-400 FPS no problem on a 128x Sphax and so far asside from a few lag spikes which based on where and when they have happened Im pretty sure is more based on the mods/minecraft than the power available in my pretty damned heavy world that has a lot of stuff running with a lot of automation I get around 150-200 FPS running around my main base. That is with 3 other ages chunk loaded as well as a large area around my base chunk loaded too.

Back on 1.5.1 I was running a Phenom X6 1090t at 3.2 GHz with HD6850 and rarely did I drop below 60 FPS with over 100 mods running.

Both of them are without optifine as well.

I have never had a problem running MC or any other game TBH on an AMD processor that would lead me to justify the extra price for the intel processors.

Its not the amount of mods you have installed. Its what they are actively doing in the world. if you have little going on, you can have 1000 mods going, just get enough RAM. You getting 60FPS with a Phenom@ 3.2Ghz proves that you were not doing nearly what we are as my PII at roughly 4Ghz is struggling. I got over 60FPS too on when im away from my main base. The GPU is irrelevant here.

An FX8350 is nowhere near a i5 3570k in gaming (and most other things). The i5s cores are 20-50% faster, each, than the FX cores. The FX only access where all 8 cores are used for a process. When 4 or less threads are in use for a process the i5 beats the FX every time by a large margin. Mincraft is a single core game. The i5 is a much better gaming futureproofing investment. This coming from someone that has gone AMD for the last 10 years. The PII will be my last AMD chip... unless Its a GPU


Try one of these http://i.imgur.com/6901hzB.jpg on a Phenom see how it handles it. I get about the same framerate looking at it as I do in my base.

The FX8350 is more than enough for FTB regardless.

the timers are to test the light lag, a fast CPU wont have a problem with it however a slow one will. IE my C2D mac has a tough time with the test while my main PC has no problem with it. The chunk loaders were as you said to test the tick lag and the same applies as it did with the light lag.
A more real scenario (even though the chunk loaders do apply to me as I have over 20 chunk loaders in my main world server on max) would be to add a bunch of pipe loops going from chest to chest with a couple stacks of items in them and see what happens. In a typical FTB world you'll have a few factory's or automated setups that could equate to the amount of items floating through the pipes.

Ah I see. Timers are a bit of the devil along with some other relentlessly and ridiculously CPU heavy blocks.
A few? PSH! Well I was working to downsizing and streamlining like that, but before that my place looked more like Nebris/Guudes plots. That sort of setup destroys CPUs. There is no way in heck anyone is getting close to 60FPS in that environment with a Phenom II 4Ghz or less.
Even with everything idle I still get a massive FPS drop when close to my base. I have gone though and systematically turned off mods. Redpower likes to eat CPU pretty good, but it was not much of a change from other mods Id turn off. Its just them all together actively out in the world. I can go 100 blocks away and my framerate will turn normal. Its the nature of the beast. So when I hear FTB now, I know it doesnt eat ore.. it eats my processorz and wallet.

BTW Sorry, getting some quotes and such messed up, I was trying to respond to NTaylor and was confusing you two. FTB forums could use a wysiwyg editor=/

 

[Quesenek]

Minecraft mods could also be "pathetically" light weight as well. The the whole point of what I was saying.

A.

P.

I.

Forge is great and mature, but its still limited by what Mojang hands us and a very dated core than never accounted for this sort of customization. Also, I'd love to see you programm a "pathetically simple" actuate DPS meter in wow if you think its childsplay. Also, I dont know what computercraft code you look at, but they are not all as simple as you make it seem. They are easier than doing it in java and more fitting for modding imo for the majority of people. (or python)




I have never had a problem running MC or any other game TBH on an AMD processor that would lead me to justify the extra price for the intel processors.

Its not the amount of mods you have installed. Its what they are actively doing in the world. if you have little going on, you can have 1000 mods going, just get enough RAM. You getting 60FPS with a Phenom@ 3.2Ghz proves that you were not doing nearly what we are as my PII at roughly 4Ghz is struggling. I got over 60FPS too on when im away from my main base. The GPU is irrelevant here. The higher end FX series are not bad chips though. I'd upload my old 146 FTB world so you could see what fpslag really is, but its over 2GB now and Im net capped

Chunk loaders are irrelevant to framerate performance as long as you have ample RAM. They can cause a different sort of lag though (tick lag). FPS is impacted by where your player currently is and the machines youre close to. Why you would have 50 timers on .2 sec I cant even guess and that could cause some FPS lag just by sheer number

the timers are to test the light lag, a fast CPU wont have a problem with it however a slow one will. IE my C2D mac has a tough time with the test while my main PC has no problem with it. The chunk loaders were as you said to test the tick lag and the same applies as it did with the light lag.
A more real scenario (even though the chunk loaders do apply to me as I have over 20 chunk loaders in my main world server on max) would be to add a bunch of pipe loops going from chest to chest with a couple stacks of items in them and see what happens. In a typical FTB world you'll have a few factory's or automated setups that could equate to the amount of items floating through the pipes.

 

[Quesenek]

Ah I see. Timers are a bit of the devil along with some other relentlessly and ridiculously CPU heavy blocks.
A few? PSH! Well I was working tword downsizing and streamlining like that, but before that my place looked more like Nebris/Guudes plots. That sort of setup destroys CPUs. There is no way in heck anyone is getting close to 60FPS in that environment with a Phenom II 4Ghz or less.
Even with everything idle I still get a massive FPS drop when close to my base. I have gone though and systematically turned off mods. Redpower likes to eat CPU pretty good, but it was not much of a change from other mods Id turn off. Its just them all together actively out in the world. I can go 100 blocks away and my framerate will turn normal. Its the nature of the beast.

I don't think there is a CPU out there that could handle the mindcrack spawn town with good FPS lol. Like you said RP machines are a CPU eater for me on singleplayer worlds, servers have no problem but I think with every timer my avg TPS drops a little lmao.
I came up with the timer trick while I was trying to figure out if overclocking my server PC would have any effect on the performance at all I don't know what all it effects but in game the light lag can really hurt your performance big time.

 

[Bigglesworth]

Have you tried this? https://github.com/nallar/TickThreading

 

[Quesenek]

Have you tried this? https://github.com/nallar/TickThreading

I'm gonna try it but the forum threads posts dont look nice lol.

Edit it actually seems to be helping a lot I don't get Any world tick lag from spawning in to the server or from going back and forth from mystcraft worlds and my TPS is 20 now apparently according to the commands.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Minecraft mods could also be "pathetically" light weight as well. The the whole point of what I was saying.

A.

P.

I.

Forge is great and mature, but its still limited by what Mojang hands us and a very dated core than never accounted for this sort of customization. Also, I'd love to see you programm a "pathetically simple" actuate DPS meter in wow if you think its childsplay.

I used to, actually, back in BC era

Also, I dont know what computercraft code you look at, but they are not all as simple as you make it seem. They are easier than doing it in java and more fitting for modding imo for the majority of people. (or python)

You *CLEARLY* have never tried to code a Mod if you can make this statement as anything other than a troll. You also clearly have no blinkin' clue of what is going on in the code, and the differences between purely aesthetic changes (WoW addons) and code which is nearly as large as the original game (Buildcraft). Even if you set up an API to smoothly interface between the two, the sheer amount of code inherent in a mod like Buildcraft is a whole 'nother scale.

I've yet to see a Computercraft program longer than a few hundred lines. Try decompiling and deobfuscating a Mod and see how many lines is involved. You are impressed by something like a DPS Meter Addon for WoW. Someone who has never lived on an ocean coast is probably impressed by a large lake.

Besides, it's rarely the raw code that is the framerate lag, so much as the items it produces. For example, the sound and lighting updates a Timer produces every time it ticks. Dynamic Lighting requires tree-traversing algorithms, updating the light level for every block near the timer as it lights up for one tick, then re-calculating them as it turns off is what makes the Timer a potential lag-beast. You wouldn't experience things like that in a WoW Addon because the code is explicitly designed to prevent such. Plus WoW isn't running on Java.

 

[Quesenek]

I used to, actually, back in BC era You *CLEARLY* have never tried to code a Mod if you can make this statement as anything other than a troll. You also clearly have no blinkin' clue of what is going on in the code, and the differences between purely aesthetic changes (WoW addons) and code which is nearly as large as the original game (Buildcraft). Even if you set up an API to smoothly interface between the two, the sheer amount of code inherent in a mod like Buildcraft is a whole 'nother scale.

I've yet to see a Computercraft program longer than a few hundred lines. Try decompiling and deobfuscating a Mod and see how many lines is involved. You are impressed by something like a DPS Meter Addon for WoW. Someone who has never lived on an ocean coast is probably impressed by a large lake.

Besides, it's rarely the raw code that is the framerate lag, so much as the items it produces. For example, the sound and lighting updates a Timer produces every time it ticks. Dynamic Lighting requires tree-traversing algorithms, updating the light level for every block near the timer as it lights up for one tick, then re-calculating them as it turns off is what makes the Timer a potential lag-beast. You wouldn't experience things like that in a WoW Addon because the code is explicitly designed to prevent such. Plus WoW isn't running on Java.

That is probably more or less the problem then anything.

 

[Iskandar]

Aye. Having an API would solve nothing. We already have an API, that is what Forge is, that is what it does. Yes, it isn't "official", but that really doesn't mean much. It allows a mod to interface with Minecraft without having to alter the base code, that is it, that is exactly what an API is. There is nothing magical about that, and an official API from Mojang would be little different, functionally, than what Forge is doing now.

And yes, check the size of your mods folder. Then compare that to the size of your Minecraft jar, notice that the former is somewhere between six to ten times the size of the latter? Trying to compare that type of complexity to WoW add ons is beyond silly.

Again, the root of the problem is that each mod adds a bit of overhead, more loaded into memory, more CPU load in game. On its own, that impact is trivial, but compounded across 80 mods or more, what are you expecting? Nothing in life is free, and there is no magic wand you can wave here. You want more content in game, you pay for it in more burden on your system. That is the way it works, and it is neither Mojang's fault, Forge's fault, nor the mods's fault.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I'm definitely in the "WoW add-ons do a lot less than MC mods" camp, and not just because they have an API. WoW mods are all just UI. You can't add new items, spells, abilities, professions, races, classes, mobs, world gen, and dungeons in WoW.

 

[PhilHibbs]

...lighting updates a Timer produces every time it ticks...

Do RP logic blocks generate light? I thought the lights were purely aesthetic.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Do RP logic blocks generate light? I thought the lights were purely aesthetic.

Nope, every time they glow, they emit light on par with a redstone torch. It's one of the reasons they generate so much lag. Simple fix is to put them on something like a Jackolantern or Glowstone block so it doesn't have to update the light since the ambient light is higher.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I just tested it in a dark cave, and Timers and State Cells both emit constant light levels no matter what they are doing so there should be no lighting calculations at all other than when you first place the block. I tried a State Cell because it has a torch on it that lights up when it's operating, as against a Timer which has a torch that's on all the time. Nonetheless, even the State Cell emits no more light when its torch is on than when it's off.