kinda straying from the topic, but there is bukkitforge, the compatibility layer between bukkit and forge(no duh)
Greg Tech opinion discussions go here
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As you’ll very quickly see (or slowly, depending on your reading speed---apologies for that), I am no fan of GregTech. However, I have to address a flawed argument I keep seeing that is really quite misguided:
Greg is not a hypocrite merely because he changes functions in other mods, but objects when other mods do the same to him. Nor is it wrong to identify GregTech as "the only real meta-mod whose balance nerfs deserve some level of deference", because that IS its mandate, scope, and nigh-singular focus---unlike any other mod in the pack.
Yes, superficially, it looks very much like hypocrisy. But though it walks like a duck, it quacks like a parakeet.
Unlike any other mod in the FTB pack, GregTech’s goal is big-picture. It’s a meta-mod. GregTech aspires to control the balance of the entire game, bending it towards a very specific vision—one with an important and popular place in the FTB community, by providing a valuable option that allows FTB to provide a fulfilling experience for both the "gamers" and the "builders" in this community (and it's nigh impossible to please both). GregTech "overlays" itself on top of other installed mods, with the clearly-stated purpose of taking the balance inconsistencies he sees, and shaping them into a consistent whole, with config options that are powerful (pahimar, take note), if somewhat (heh) muddled. He does this the only way anyone could: by making dozens (hundreds?) of tweaks to both vanilla and modded behavior. Now, does fine-tuning the balance of a 100-mod-plus modpack require a nigh-Orwellian degree of control over just about everything? Of course! I mean, is there any other way? So: whether you agree or disagree with Greg's particular vision of game balance, it must be admitted that accomplishing it does require this degree of control, or it wouldn't—nay, couldn't—be GregTech.
Now, can the same be said of other mods, when they reverse GregTech’s tweaks? No, it cannot. Indeed, the truth is quite the opposite: Undoing a GregTech tweak strikes at the very heart of what GregTech is aspiring to do, by undermining the control Greg must have if he is to realize the very goal for which his mod was created. Does halving the yield of Planks really strike at the heart of Tinker’s Construct, or any other mod? No. Does undoing the changes Greg has made to game balance undermine Greg’s vision of game balance? I believe that question answers itself. (Keeping in mind, the question of whether you agree with Greg's vision of game balance is an entirely different issue.)
So that’s the difference. That’s why any “hypocrisy” argument based on Greg ignoring the supposed symmetry of cross-mod changes doesn't have the wings so many think it does. This is also why GregTech's tweaks deserve some deference from the creators of more self-contained mods: The changes Greg makes are the core of GregTech, and it's why people use the mod in the first place.
Now, I did say I was no GregTech apologist. So strap in for an abrupt change of tack.
I think GregTech should not be included in the default FTB modpack, for two reasons: First, the players who really want GregTech are likely going to be the most comfortable setting up a non-default FTB configuration (i.e. if you can build a Fusion Reactor, I think it’s fair to assume you can switch over to a GregTech pack from the FTB launcher). I think the default, “out-of-the-box” FTB should cater to the group most likely to “just click Launch.” Right now, at least pre-beta, it’s a bit backwards in that sense. I think, looking at how the beta is being presented, that the FTB team is addressing this, so I'll move on to my second and more... shall we say, "aggressive"... point:
Malicious code is black-and-white wrong, and instantly abdicates all moral ground. mDiyo’s eloquent first-page defense was appreciated, but entirely unnecessary, and could have been reduced to four words: “Malicious code? Debate over.”(I'd have used four letters, but this is a family show.) Malicious code should be loudly and clearly denounced by all of us, all the time, with no breath wasted on so-called “justifications” or weasel-word redefinitions of "malicious code" (that is to say, I don't consider "clever tricks" that knowingly "oops-cause-convenient-crashes-because-of-whoops-load-order" to be anything other than malicious code in poor disguise).
Really, the only salient point here is this: Malicious code doesn't hurt the intended victim anywhere near as much as it hurts those entirely innocent players---members of this community---who are often totally ignorant of the melodrama behind the curtain. Malicious code is nothing more than the callous dismissal of this community as acceptable collateral damage in a clash of imagined Titans. The only people hurt by Greg were… wait for it… the people who use his mod. His own damn fans! In what amounts to deliberate friendly-fire, he inflicted confusion and frustration upon his own fanbase so he could use them as a weapon to pressure another modder into compliance.
As much as I think Greg’s changes deserve some level of deference given the scope, goals and purposes of GregTech, Greg’s response was disgusting-in-underlined-italics. It’s taking ethics lessons from the same grotesque chapter that informs North Korea’s starvation of its citizens to attract foreign aid, for heaven’s sake (though I may have gone too far with that, I will point out that Godwin’s Law applies to Hitler references only
).
To Slowpoke and the rest of the FTB Team: I beg you to exercise your (not-inconsiderable and vastly-underestimated) influence to make a very public statement on this issue: Deliberately introducing malicious code, veiled or otherwise, that harms the FTB player base in any way is a breach of that barest, minimal level of professionalism you and the FTB team have every right to demand in exchange for the honor of being part of the FTB modpack.
And if one petty modder or another doesn’t consider being part of the FTB modpack to be an honor worthy of even that low standard of decorum?
Well, allow me to draft the follow-up response I’d recommend:
“Malicious code? #@!% you and get out.”
Greg is not a hypocrite merely because he changes functions in other mods, but objects when other mods do the same to him. Nor is it wrong to identify GregTech as "the only real meta-mod whose balance nerfs deserve some level of deference", because that IS its mandate, scope, and nigh-singular focus---unlike any other mod in the pack.
Yes, superficially, it looks very much like hypocrisy. But though it walks like a duck, it quacks like a parakeet.
Unlike any other mod in the FTB pack, GregTech’s goal is big-picture. It’s a meta-mod. GregTech aspires to control the balance of the entire game, bending it towards a very specific vision—one with an important and popular place in the FTB community, by providing a valuable option that allows FTB to provide a fulfilling experience for both the "gamers" and the "builders" in this community (and it's nigh impossible to please both). GregTech "overlays" itself on top of other installed mods, with the clearly-stated purpose of taking the balance inconsistencies he sees, and shaping them into a consistent whole, with config options that are powerful (pahimar, take note), if somewhat (heh) muddled. He does this the only way anyone could: by making dozens (hundreds?) of tweaks to both vanilla and modded behavior. Now, does fine-tuning the balance of a 100-mod-plus modpack require a nigh-Orwellian degree of control over just about everything? Of course! I mean, is there any other way? So: whether you agree or disagree with Greg's particular vision of game balance, it must be admitted that accomplishing it does require this degree of control, or it wouldn't—nay, couldn't—be GregTech.
Now, can the same be said of other mods, when they reverse GregTech’s tweaks? No, it cannot. Indeed, the truth is quite the opposite: Undoing a GregTech tweak strikes at the very heart of what GregTech is aspiring to do, by undermining the control Greg must have if he is to realize the very goal for which his mod was created. Does halving the yield of Planks really strike at the heart of Tinker’s Construct, or any other mod? No. Does undoing the changes Greg has made to game balance undermine Greg’s vision of game balance? I believe that question answers itself. (Keeping in mind, the question of whether you agree with Greg's vision of game balance is an entirely different issue.)
So that’s the difference. That’s why any “hypocrisy” argument based on Greg ignoring the supposed symmetry of cross-mod changes doesn't have the wings so many think it does. This is also why GregTech's tweaks deserve some deference from the creators of more self-contained mods: The changes Greg makes are the core of GregTech, and it's why people use the mod in the first place.
Now, I did say I was no GregTech apologist. So strap in for an abrupt change of tack.
I think GregTech should not be included in the default FTB modpack, for two reasons: First, the players who really want GregTech are likely going to be the most comfortable setting up a non-default FTB configuration (i.e. if you can build a Fusion Reactor, I think it’s fair to assume you can switch over to a GregTech pack from the FTB launcher). I think the default, “out-of-the-box” FTB should cater to the group most likely to “just click Launch.” Right now, at least pre-beta, it’s a bit backwards in that sense. I think, looking at how the beta is being presented, that the FTB team is addressing this, so I'll move on to my second and more... shall we say, "aggressive"... point:
Malicious code is black-and-white wrong, and instantly abdicates all moral ground. mDiyo’s eloquent first-page defense was appreciated, but entirely unnecessary, and could have been reduced to four words: “Malicious code? Debate over.”(I'd have used four letters, but this is a family show.) Malicious code should be loudly and clearly denounced by all of us, all the time, with no breath wasted on so-called “justifications” or weasel-word redefinitions of "malicious code" (that is to say, I don't consider "clever tricks" that knowingly "oops-cause-convenient-crashes-because-of-whoops-load-order" to be anything other than malicious code in poor disguise).
Really, the only salient point here is this: Malicious code doesn't hurt the intended victim anywhere near as much as it hurts those entirely innocent players---members of this community---who are often totally ignorant of the melodrama behind the curtain. Malicious code is nothing more than the callous dismissal of this community as acceptable collateral damage in a clash of imagined Titans. The only people hurt by Greg were… wait for it… the people who use his mod. His own damn fans! In what amounts to deliberate friendly-fire, he inflicted confusion and frustration upon his own fanbase so he could use them as a weapon to pressure another modder into compliance.
As much as I think Greg’s changes deserve some level of deference given the scope, goals and purposes of GregTech, Greg’s response was disgusting-in-underlined-italics. It’s taking ethics lessons from the same grotesque chapter that informs North Korea’s starvation of its citizens to attract foreign aid, for heaven’s sake (though I may have gone too far with that, I will point out that Godwin’s Law applies to Hitler references only
).To Slowpoke and the rest of the FTB Team: I beg you to exercise your (not-inconsiderable and vastly-underestimated) influence to make a very public statement on this issue: Deliberately introducing malicious code, veiled or otherwise, that harms the FTB player base in any way is a breach of that barest, minimal level of professionalism you and the FTB team have every right to demand in exchange for the honor of being part of the FTB modpack.
And if one petty modder or another doesn’t consider being part of the FTB modpack to be an honor worthy of even that low standard of decorum?
Well, allow me to draft the follow-up response I’d recommend:
“Malicious code? #@!% you and get out.”
greg forces his recipes to load last, then runs a check to make sure they are, this makes sure his recipes are loaded into game over riding "nerfing" all others, there are config options for near all, but this is a big but, the configs are formated poorly not easy to find required references with ease, & at times misnamed, (the 2 misnamed may have been fixed in last build), in short there are configs but if your new to mods you will be totally lost, asking on the GT forum has at times resulted in condescending or out right insults, things like if you cant read a config (random insult) off, not by all I must add there are some ppl there that seem willing to help as needed.
ps I am not a greg fan but try to stay as clear & unbiased as I can when answering a qustion, my views on all this are well know & mine alone.
I beleive gregtech is something that was ment to be a late game change for everything. This is not good because the mods it changes are ment to be early game mods. Some might say it is a fun challenge, but I have seen far more people say it is way too resource intensive. I beleive that it is cool to have gregtech but some things GregTech does are rediculous
Throwing an exception and stopping the client to fix a config error is a pretty common thing. The alternative is not loading the mod and continuing into the game (which deletes all that mod's blocks from the world) or having to deal with a cross-mod exploit. It's better to get the exception right off if you're building/configuring a pack so that you know whether or not things in the pack are going to work together without having to play through every little piece of everything.
I like to hope that the respective mod developers put this little spat (it's WOOD for heaven's sake) behind them at some point so that myself and people like myself can continue to enjoy both their hard work simultaneously. One log or two before I can make my first crafting table isn't really going to make a difference to me either way.
I like to hope that the respective mod developers put this little spat (it's WOOD for heaven's sake) behind them at some point so that myself and people like myself can continue to enjoy both their hard work simultaneously. One log or two before I can make my first crafting table isn't really going to make a difference to me either way.
Key point: It's not a config error.
It's not an error at all. Things would have ran without issue without the crash. In fact, prior to Greg modifying his mod to insert the crash, things did run without issue even with Tinker's changing the recipe.
So...your statement is null value.
I seem to remember some thing like this happening before.
1 Mod badly changes other mods.
2 Different mod author produces some thing to change some things back.
3 First mod author throw childish tantrum and makes it so the mod stosp working if other certain mods are installed.
4 Deliberately takes screen names and adds code to add minor problems for people they do not like.
5 When asked politely on forum for help people get abuse, insults and banned.
Did I miss any?
1 Mod badly changes other mods.
2 Different mod author produces some thing to change some things back.
3 First mod author throw childish tantrum and makes it so the mod stosp working if other certain mods are installed.
4 Deliberately takes screen names and adds code to add minor problems for people they do not like.
5 When asked politely on forum for help people get abuse, insults and banned.
Did I miss any?
Wood is a big factor for Tinker's Construct, mostly in the beginning. The fact that he actually made it crash it immature. I feel like comparing him to FlowerChild. The fact that he is calling Tinker's mod a hack, which is why it crashes is just childish. I've been trying and added Tinkers into my mod packs and I have enjoyed it extremely. I use Gregtech to last my gameplay longer. Greg's points against MDiyo is childish and absurd. There should be a solve in this or make someone who makes the modpacks to choose between Tinker's Mod and Gregtech.
Well here I was checking on news for FTB and 1.6 and I run across this thread. I didn't read each and all of these posts only a select few. I am just going to give an opinion of an avid FTB player that enjoys playing games.
Gregtech with all its changes in 1.4.7 did nothing for me but utterly make me enjoy the game more. It gave me more of a progression, forced me to use some mods that I probably wouldn't have and simply made the game longevity better and longer. Is this bad? In my opinion no, but for some people who enjoyed jumping right to end game or having very little progression at all may beg to differ.
I for one understand if some people are angry if someone intentionally broke a pack or made another mod obsolete, but I for one just say I highly doubt someone intentionally broke anything and I vote to keep the mod in and I for one hopes it makes things at end game even harder. If you want someone easy just go play vanilla....
Mine long and mine deep!
Redlotus99
Gregtech with all its changes in 1.4.7 did nothing for me but utterly make me enjoy the game more. It gave me more of a progression, forced me to use some mods that I probably wouldn't have and simply made the game longevity better and longer. Is this bad? In my opinion no, but for some people who enjoyed jumping right to end game or having very little progression at all may beg to differ.
I for one understand if some people are angry if someone intentionally broke a pack or made another mod obsolete, but I for one just say I highly doubt someone intentionally broke anything and I vote to keep the mod in and I for one hopes it makes things at end game even harder. If you want someone easy just go play vanilla....
Mine long and mine deep!
Redlotus99
Read more. Greg added code that intentionally crashed the client if you had GregTech and Tinkerer's Construct installed at the same time. The code was removed, but Greg simply won't admit that he did wrong, and he even admitted he'd use innocent bystanders to get his way.
Personally, I don't like GregTech because either the modder's idea of balance is warped, or he's just trying to accomplish it the lazy way out. Sure, he added progression, but the progression is badly implemented, and you end up having to jump through a ridiculous amount of hoops to get almost anything done. Having to grind for days or even weeks for a simple machine just for a few blocks to finish building a house doesn't feel rewarding at all.
So here's my opinion:
At first Gregtech was great it made the end game more difficult, making the game more fun. It gave you something to strive for, to have to work for.
Then he started nerfing the earlier game mods and items. No one uses the macerator anymore for example. Plates were needed for everything not making it more difficult just more time consuming.
I think what i am trying to say is that greg should stick with making the end game difficult not making starting off difficult.
And now this, quite simply Malicious code is unacceptable, the end.
At first Gregtech was great it made the end game more difficult, making the game more fun. It gave you something to strive for, to have to work for.
Then he started nerfing the earlier game mods and items. No one uses the macerator anymore for example. Plates were needed for everything not making it more difficult just more time consuming.
I think what i am trying to say is that greg should stick with making the end game difficult not making starting off difficult.
And now this, quite simply Malicious code is unacceptable, the end.
Things would not have run without issue without the crash. The wood recipe would be wrong and exploitable (as determined by the config in the case where the mismatching recipe would otherwise throw an exception). The Tinker's exploit of luck+autosmelt on compressed ores DID ruin a world on a server that I play on that was running an earlier 152beta and I think more modders should be checking whether or not their recipes match their config files (and have configs for things in the first place). It would eliminate a lot of headaches associated with adding mods to a pack.
Wood is not a big factor for anything other than Vanilla. Everything needed for a stone hatchet (which will obliterate trees quite nicely until you get around to building the smeltery for something made out of metal) can be obtained in the first few minutes of gameplay (even if you throw half your logs in the river) unless you have a really terrible spawn that has zero trees for kilometers. It's WOOD. Once you have two of every pattern (1 for non-metal, 1 for casts) you're DONE with wood as far as Tinker's Construct is concerned.
Let's turn this around. If this is the case, why is a wood nerf necessary?
Because a modder wanted his "plank making machine" to be used, just to satisfy that modder's greed, wood nerf is necessary.
why is there no poll on this ? who is wrong ? x or y. numbers will speak !
How so? They both have greg set at hard. I would think ultimate would be easier because it uses a lot more mods that make it easier to do stuff in their own way. Ee3 for example, power converters, mfr, power suites etc.
So... As someone who enjoys GregTech for the STUFF it adds, not for any perceived progression or some such, I'm kind of saddened by the events that has happened recently. I have been reading people's comments regarding this here and there, and some have uttered wishes on replacing GT entirely in some way.
Are there any tangible plans anyone have regarding this? I mean, GT is an absolutely huge mod, but core features should not be too hard to replicate; After all, Red Power features has been copied several times by now. It would be great if we could have a FTB friendly alternative to GT with the advanced GT machines and tools...
Are there any tangible plans anyone have regarding this? I mean, GT is an absolutely huge mod, but core features should not be too hard to replicate; After all, Red Power features has been copied several times by now. It would be great if we could have a FTB friendly alternative to GT with the advanced GT machines and tools...
http://www.reddit.com/r/feedthebeast/comments/1ilmq3/gregtech_alternative_wip/
This one from the FTB subreddit seems to have got the ball rolling. There's already an official GIT and everything. Yes, it's open source! None of that malicious crash code, guaranteed.
Actually... I tried that and I think it's not in Forge anymore (If it was in the beginning.) I just didn't know that that was even a thing. Apparently it's not. So there you have it. (I mean the "addShapedRecipeFirst". Not just a "addShapedRecipe".)
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