EU to MJ?

Discussion in 'Mod Discussion' started by RedSpah, Feb 22, 2013.

  1. RedSpah

    RedSpah Member

    Is there any method of converting EU to MJ? I have 20 mln EU and problems of feeding my quarry.
     
  2. SkyBoy96

    SkyBoy96 Well-Known Member

    Electric engines from forestry. Tin across top, tin gears on bottom sides, glass in middle, and piston between the gears. (As of when I last used them)
     
  3. Harvest88

    Harvest88 Well-Known Member

    Too bad they're not effective converters.. 3eu/t per MJ/t that's just about a little more than a 1k of MJ per coal/charcoal put via a generator, where as a stirling engine put out 2k MJ per and steam engines/hobbyists even considerably more. If you upgrade the engines via circuit boards and only put the effectively tube in then it'll be 2.5 Eu/t per MJ/t but man that's still pretty crappy conversion. Unless your running on solar panels your better off making fuels for MJ producing engines with the eu rather than direct converting.
     
  4. Exasperation

    Exasperation Member

    2.5 EU to 1 MJ is 100% efficient for most basic fuels. Planks, coal/charcoal, peat, coal coke, etc. all give 2.5 times as much EU as MJ when burned in the appropriate generators/engines. Exceptions are lava, fuel, biomass, and biofuel, which all give more MJ relative to the amount of EU (and steam engines, which have higher efficiency if you run them constantly) - especially biomass and biofuel, which are orders of magnitude more efficient for MJ production than EU production.
     
  5. King Lemming

    King Lemming Thermal Expansion Dev FTB Mod Dev

    2.5/1 isn't a bad conversion, it is in fact ludicrously OP.

    2.5/1 is the linear rate based on Coal in a Generator or Stirling Engine, which frankly is just wrong. The power sources scale wildly differently from there, and the fact that IC2 power is outright trivial to produce means that conversion at any rate is absurd.
     
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  6. MagusUnion

    MagusUnion Active Member

    Let me explain the reason why coal was used as the model of energy conversion... (since I was one of the earlier members who helped champion the idea)...

    Back when the first official release of Minecraft was done in 2011, Forge was still very young and fresh and a tad bit limited in some of its functions. Power systems from BC had just been developed not very long ago, and IC2 was just getting off the ground as people were raging over the initial castings of Yogcast with Technic. Energy conversion was hypothesized when people began to truly expand into the two systems because, let's face it, BC pipes suck for energy transfer, and oil is highly lucrative when it comes to fuel and fuel based energy. For many, this prospect was actually ignored since solar panels were being spammed en-mass on worlds, and CASUC's were being exploited due to the nature of infinite water in Minecraft. Yet for those of us who needed energy who were unwilling to follow the 'current metagame' looked for solutions within Buildcraft to use the long burning solutions of hydro carbons for an energy source. Thus, between Power Crystals's Power Converters and Sykne's Transformers, a standard was formed in order to satisfy the initial early game of Minecraft play...

    Now granted, this meant that BC Fuel could generate about a Million EU per bucket, but when you are competing with CASUC reactors that output 1800 EU/t and HV Compact Solars that make UU-Matter instant access, it wasn't a big deal. The conversion made Oil competitive with other energy systems, and made those types of add-ons worth having in your /mods folder as you played...

    Fast forward to IC2 1.106 when the new nuclear system was brought along, and hard distaste for solar energy was being thrown (again) at that type of renewable energy. Players had evolved from simple energy setups with mostly LV based power, to highly complex energy hungry systems that mass fabricated materials on the fly, and rendered enormous domes of forcefields in order to shield against hostile threats. The nerf came hard for nuclear operators, and killed many setups (possibly servers) that were using it.

    So thus the meta-game shifted, and people began exploring the Nether for Geothermal energy (something I predicted back in 1.8 beta). People wanted energy because they needed it, fast. So the old conversion was discovered, and people swarmed to it immediately. Suddenly, a black gold rush began on updated servers, as that form of energy became the new god-send for mass energy need, and in many ways, it was exploited just the same as nuclear and solar before. The linchpin in that, however, was that it used external conversion to decide how powerful Oil and Fuel could be. On one end, conservative server owners wanted something balanced and challenging, while others wished to return to the golden age of having billions of EU at their direct disposal...

    So thus the flaws of the 2:5 ratio were quickly discovered by developers. I'm not saying it's the 'right' ratio, I'm just saying that it was something needed as a quick fix for the conditions at the time. Saying that the ratio was just a hideous flaw to begin with discards the evolution that this game has been under during the past year or so. We've changed quite a bit. Even vanilla Minecraft is different from when it first launched officially. So the ratio is a relic of the meta-game, and the needs that people had in order to stay competitive with their energy generating peers...

    Personally, I think a 3 MJ:4 EU ratio is better. This works under the guise of the nature of horsepower (1 hp = 746 watts, or .75 Killowatts), and in a realistic sense balances out fairly well. This would mean that fuel would produce about 800k EU ( 200k under a uranium ingot at 1 Million EU by itself), and would only lend a small (about 4k EU) gain in Geothermal energy when using an engine instead of a geothermal generator. That's basically an extra coal of energy, which you can gain from a sawmill for about the same price either or. This means that, when scaled, Fossil fuel energy is still being outperformed by nuclear, but more attractive short term by those who aren't worried by fuel renew-ability. I think that, since we can look at real-life issues about out own energy generation as an example, BC Oil/Fuel should have a higher output than the other forms of energy as they show the 'trap' that players can get in if they rely on nonrenewable energy sources for too long. If Oil/Fuel values are too low, people will simple ignore them. If they are too high, you run the risk of admin duping and 'Oil fabrication' (be it by add-on or other exploits) and people crutch themselves on that type of energy. BC Oil/Fuel needs to be both attractive and balanced, hence the need for such energy conversion as it enables Oil/Fuel to be taken advantage of, while demonstrating the Minecraft/real-life pitfalls of that type of energy...

    (tl;dr)
    But I can agree, the 2:5 ratio (atm) is bad... however, don't shoot it apart on the simple premise that it was a 'designer flaw'. There's a meta-game history that goes with it...
     
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  7. King Lemming

    King Lemming Thermal Expansion Dev FTB Mod Dev

    I'm reasonably well aware of the history and the metagame around energy - I do make a mod. ;)

    The problem is that there is no fair equivalance because of how the systems work. Going from MJ to EU, I'd say that 1:1 is *maybe* fair. Going from EU to MJ, I'd argue for 4:1 or worse, only because EU is trivial in comparison and there are mountains more of it generated.

    The most power hungry thing that uses MJ is the quarry, and it caps at 44.6. But at a 3:4 ratio, that's still well under an MFE. Sorry, the math just doesn't work there. The two systems are just incomparable and should remain as such with regards to a simple ratio. It's a two way street and needs to be optimized as such.

    I appreciate the efforts of the people who attempt to reconcile them - especially PowerCrystals with the newest update to Power Converters - allowing a configurable ratio is good.
     
  8. MagusUnion

    MagusUnion Active Member

    The reason why there is more EU produced than MJ is due to the fact that IC uses an inert fuel modifier to 'boost' the value of materials as they are burned. The direct value of this is, in fact, 2.5...
    While that may inherently mess with values, it not something that you can 'make bank' on. If you took Superfuel from IC2 and convert it into BC liquid, you'd find that it's a very rapidly burning, short-lived, source of EU...

    I know you are looking at this from a gamer perspective, but that's not the only way to approach this: Oil and Fuel are energy resources. The problem is not the networks, but how those fuels are applied. You could create a petro generator to solve the solution, but it comes inherent with the dispute of how much value that energy produces. On one end, you can make Oil and Fuel produce about the same energy as they do in Buildcraft. On another, you could nerf the hell out of it and 'bring it in line' with other energy resources. Yes, that means the output is balance, but then no one will use that resource since it's not renewable, and you have to rely on terrain luck to get it....

    I'm sorry, but the environmental geologist in me says that there is no reason why Oil/Fuel should have diminished yields. Nonrenewable resources should have large outputs because they are simply nonrenewable. Otherwise, they get ignored or trashed because it's not worth the material investment to mess with them. In Minecraft, almost everything is renewable (even nuclear power if you have the scientific affinity), and thus if your energy isn't renewable, there's no point having it...
     
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  9. King Lemming

    King Lemming Thermal Expansion Dev FTB Mod Dev

    I agree - there is no reason that you can't have some sort of EU generating machine that runs on oil/fuel. That is totally fine, and it could be a totally arbitrary value. It doesn't matter if it's 800 million EU per bucket or whatever you want it to be, so long as you can't convert it BACK to MJ and have the arbitrage. The conversion is where it falls apart.

    Insisting that the oil/fuel using machines be on the MJ side and that there must be a universal ratio to balance with IC2 is the problem here. The petrogen mod is great, just set up the config values to what seems fair and you're good to go. Direct lossless, single-ratio conversion leads to one system being better than the other, period - there are too many dimensions of freedom to constrain it to one optimal point.
     
  10. MagusUnion

    MagusUnion Active Member

    I wouldn't go that far... I will say that EU wiring mechanics are a bit restricting.. However, if you are using wire for long distance setups, you're doing it wrong...

    Let's look at lava for just a second. It creates 20k EU per bucket (a nerfed value), 20k MJ in a Combustion engine, and 18k MJ in a Magmatic Engine. A Glass BC tank can store 16 buckets of lava. This equals 320,000 EU. The only thing in IC2 that can store all that energy is an MFE. MFE's are much more expensive than BC tanks, yet they 'store' the same amount of energy. Also, if you transport lava long distance (via your Tesseracts or Enderchest storage), you have ZERO losses when you actually get around to using said fuel...

    Let's also look at the stats of 'Superfuel': the highest burning fuel in IC2 (I don't count nuclear reactions as 'burning', lol). It creates 104,870 EU in a normal generator. Since this is an inflated value, it has to be down covered. Therefore, it burns for about 41948 ticks as fuel. Divide that by an arbitrary number between 2-6 (for setting a rate), and you'll soon see it doesn't preform nearly as well as say Seed Oil or Milk in MJ terms.

    If it's fuel resources that you are worried about, then trust me, IC2 ones don't compare to how well Buildcraft/Forestry fuels are handled (both in storage and in application). If it's another 'renewable energy' argument over solar/wind/water, then may I remind you that Redpower has their own renewable MJ power, and that limiting scientific applications of technology (even in a game setting) is highly blasphemous. I don't think Minecraft should be limited from a game play perspective. It's a sandbox and a world simulation environment. That creates a large avenue of many applications beyond just 'a game'...

    So I don't see where the exploit you are mentioning comes from. MJ is better than EU... always has. The only reason you want to create EU is because you are either too lazy to setup a 2nd network, or you lack materials to support one...
     
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  11. Edrosty

    Edrosty Member

    A good thing that I've done, is I've made one advanced solar panel per engine, and I have 4 engines, so 4 advanced solars, powering my quarry.
     
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  12. Hydra

    Hydra Popular Member

    You do know King Lemming is the author of Thermal Expansion right?
     
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  13. WTFFFS

    WTFFFS Active Member

    The main difference that leads to direct conversions of EU>MJ being horribly overpowered is the scaling of the potential generation methods a 36HP boiler (best efficiency method of generation) can at most produce 144 MJ\tic at 2.5:1 that equates to 350ish EU\tic(using Steam Turbines to directly make Eu you can get 200 EU\tic) which for an equivalent resource cost investment in IC2 generation (mass Geogens\mass solar) would be a small amount of EU\tic, I have a setup of 32 Thermal Gens which yields a little under 800 EU\tic with a far smaller cost in resources and infrastructure then either of my 36HP boilers (fuel\biofuel) or even my 36LP boiler(charcoal).
    If I had a direct conversion even at a 2.5:1 ratio my 32 Thermal Gens can produce more MJ\tic with less cost and far less infrastructure (it takes 2 tesseracts\a BC pump\ a magmatic engine and that is pretty much it other than the Gens themselves, compare it to the same pump\tesseracts then you have the power requirement of the pump which you will need a different source of power other than the fuel you are gathering and then there are the refineries and their power requirements) than the most efficient method of MJ production which is my 36HP on fuel. Also the already existing pump\tesseracts\magmatic can provide enough lava for far more than the 32 Thermals i have running from it, I would suspect that I could easily triple the number of thermal gens without major changes in my providing setup at which point why would you ever bother to build a boiler (high cost) combustion engines (explosion risk) and the associated infrastructure to fuel them from a NON-renewable resource (ok with a fair bit of breeding and extra bees fuel is a renewable resource but it does take a fair amount of effort to breed up that particular strain), fair enough with King Lemmings nerfs to the magma crucible lava is effectively non-renewable but you will have trouble making a significant dint in the Nether's lava supply unless you are specifically trying to drain it.
    Also if you consider the RP2 renewable MJ generation as anything on the same potential scale as ANY of the IC2 green gens you clearly have not built a wind turbine\blulectric engine.
     
  14. MagusUnion

    MagusUnion Active Member

    You say that like I'm supposed to be intimidated by him... Yes I'm well aware of the fact that he's the author of Thermal Expansion. I'm also aware at how brilliant his work is with the MJ networking and his machines (which are actually superior than IC2 in early game situations).

    Stop right there. You are making a huge assumption RIGHT there...

    1. You are assuming that every player will want to use this method only.
    2. You are assuming that there are not other situations where engines can be superior to an IC2 system
    3. You assuming that every player is 100% efficient in regards to how they create their energy setups...

    Example: outside of the refining cost cost, did you know a Soulsand is worth a 'potential' 160,000 EU? Or that, outside of refining ofc, an apple and a sapling has the 'potential' to be worth 50,000 MJ?

    Do you see how complicated it gets when you micro analyze all forms of energy like this? Trying to balance end-game is a moot point. The goal of end game is to get to a point where resources and energy becomes trite (pseudo Creative mode, in a way), and that energy/material resources begin taking care of themselves thru diligence, hard work, and proper application...

    The only points that people seem to be are about lava (myself from a year ago is laughing at all of you :rolleyes: ). You can't really nerf lava without removing the Nether from servers. That place is pure energy, no question about it. Of course lava systems are going to do hellishly well (pun intended), and that's a flaw with the nature of Minecraft itself. Course, if you want to play without the Nether, be my guess (you can ask your other peers how much of a good idea this is, btw)...

    And no, I wasn't trying to say that renewable IC MJ systems were like Redpower's, I was just stating that it's part of an accepted mod's design. If Eloraam felt it was OP to generate MJ in such a way, I don't think she would have added that into Redpower at all...
     
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  15. WTFFFS

    WTFFFS Active Member

    The bolded line is the problem EU>MJ conversion unless extremely lossy makes the point of energy triviality (for MJ) not end-game at all instead it moves it to early\mid game as consumers of BC power are balanced around the maximum end-game generation of mass combustion\biogas\ other engines which do not produce anything like even the low tier EU gens in mass amounts.
    All I am assuming is that mod devs have to balance around the majority of players who while they will not be 100% efficient they can easily see that a mass geogen\Spwnx windfarm\water mill farm can produce well over the amount that the same resource cost of combustion\steam power can and requires far less work in setup if there is an easy way to convert the massive amount of EU available to MJ.
    The amount of MJ produced by a wind turbine\blulectric engine set up is very low the conversion rate for Blutric to MJ is worse than any of the conversions rates bandied about above even King Lemming's 4:1 ratio pales into insignificance against a full power turbine being able to produce at most 5 MJ\tic (1000w>1MJ), seriously they are pretty and somewhat useful in the Nether but as a method of power production.. not really there. This relates back to the consumers expected requirements RP2 machines run on almost nothing so the production capabilities of RP2 gen methods are low, MJ consumers require 10's of MJ so the production capabilities of MJ producers are set at that level, EU consumers can easily require a few hundred EU so the production capabilities of EU producers are set to that level. So from that I can see if you were capable of running Blutric machines on Eu producers via any sort of conversion, Blutric production is very rapidly trivialized as is MJ production as the expected production levels are on completely different orders of magnitude.
     
  16. MagusUnion

    MagusUnion Active Member

    No, they don't... they only have to balance around the dedicated design of their specific mods...
    In fact, they don't have to do that at all. They could create OP tools and such that nullify all other mods in their usage, and virtually overshadow the hilarious exaggeration of Minecraft ability...
    ..OR, they can design a mod so restrictive to the aspects of its parts that, unless you circumvent those parts specifically, takes hours to days of gameplay time to tediously get over each hurtle...

    This misconception that mods have to "be balanced around other mods," is probably the biggest pitfalls of modpack communities. A mod developer makes a mod how he sees fit, period. If you disagree with the design, take it up with them, and pray they add a config. setting...

    And if they have a config. setting, then this is an argument with your server owner, not the mod itself...
     
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  17. WTFFFS

    WTFFFS Active Member

    You are correct as far as it goes, mod devs can do whatever the hell they like (the dirt to diamonds mod does exist) but *GOOD* (as in extending rather than completely breaking gameplay) mod devs try to at least keep some semblance of balance both internally and in a multi-mod environment in mind. For a specific example see the recent RC nerf to Blaze Rod heat values in boilers due to the ease of production with Soul Shards spawners.
    Though this is slightly offtopic your point of "having to be balanced around other mods" is the actual point of this topic, the whole discussion revolves around using a crossover of some sort to use one mods resource in another mod which would likely break the original mod devs design for their own mods which in turn breaks their balance within their own mods.
     
  18. MagusUnion

    MagusUnion Active Member

    Define "Good"...

    and Unfortunately, that is the side effect of mod compatibility: you can't shield your mod from everything. Sure, you can apply restrictions and such in order to resist some exploited actions from the player-base, but it isn't 100%. Honestly, unless they are 'making diamonds into dirt' with your resources from another mod, I don't see how this is a solid issue (more like Flowerchild tears to me, tbh). EU is NOT as valuable as you may think. It doesn't burn for very long, the lava yields are equal, and unless you go thru the nuclear route, you need to sink tons of resources into the system in order to make competitive. Main difference is the fact that alot of IC2 is renewable, and I think that's what bothers many players/devs. Why, I don't know, but that may have more to do with my education and background as a geologist more than anything else. Still, it should be implied that when you work with something like Forge (or even Buildcraft and IC2), you design is not going to be 100% set in stone. Players will find bugs, and they will find glitches. That's how players play games nowdays. Doesn't mean it's right , but that also shouldn't be a reason to disallow functionality because "omgz ma design in runined!!!@!@@!@!#1121!!". It's not fair to the community, and certainly not fair to those developers who welcome such changes that you are opposed to...
     
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  19. WTFFFS

    WTFFFS Active Member

    I did define good "extending rather than completely breaking gameplay" EU not being valuable is kind of the point, EU as a resource is very cheap and very easily generated compared to MJ as a design choice of the specific mods involved since the consumers in the mods in question are designed with either a scarcity (MJ) or an abundance (EU) in mind for their usage of the resource the ability to convert a "cheap" resource to a more scarce one is the problem with EU>MJ conversions.
    If you search for the conversions you find EU>MJ coming up far more frequently than any other conversion and it if often stated in the posts\requests that they want to convert the huge amounts of EU they have to MJ so they don't have to build the complicated infrastructure required to support producing MJ, partially I believe this is a carryover somewhat of the lack of storage available for MJ before Redstone Energy Cells but often I believe it is due to the relative ease of EU production.
    As for Players finding glitches and exploiting the hell out of them, yeah they will, in fact part of why *I* enjoy playing minecraft and indeed any game is breaking the game legitimately within the rules and balance restraints of the game itself, I do however tend to avoid exploiting clearly unintended glitches as games tend to be easy enough to break without "cheating".
    Dunno what your background and training as a Geologist has to do with this since my background and training as a Geologist doesn't suggest anything about it :p (though it does explain why you seem to be enjoying a good argument\discussion about it, in my experience he who argues hardest and best tends to have their viewpoint carried in Geology and no the pointy end of a Geopick is not a valid argument.......unless you are arguing with a mining engineer.)
     
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  20. MagusUnion

    MagusUnion Active Member

    Environmental Geologist, actually... You can keep your damn fossils, I'll be behind the computer working on maps in ArcGIS...

    In fact, it is because of my specialty as a resource manager that I argue that point: overcoming the obstacles of scarcity. I WANT the ability to find resources that are cheap and useful. I want to be able to convert 'useless material' into an application that can replace a strategic resource (be it redstone, diamonds, oil, etc) and not have to worry about the rarity factor of world generation...

    Hence why there are custom Mob Spawners, UU-Matter, custom realms, even alchemical transmutations in Minecraft. Players want the ability to convert the excess into the scare, be it material, energy, or otherwise. And while some mods can limit these resources in their mod and in Minecraft (like Steel, for example), there will still be other mods to counteract this action. Denying a mechanic for the vanity of 'preserving {specific} mod design' cheats the player-base out of their personalized enjoyment of modded Minecraft. Just because YOU don't want it, doesn't mean that other people may still desire that application...

    Plus, scarcity is not fun (at least for me, it isn't). Combing the world over and over again for THAT ONE item in Minecraft just to build THAT ONE machine/engine/utility for the purpose of advancing my tech in the game is excruciatingly tedious. It's a grind I'd rather avoid, and I'd like to take my time with my semi-automated setups to build applications for my materials (cities, shops, town halls, etc) rather than struggle around an infinite world where I have to carve through millions of 'useless' blocks just to get to the one item that I need. To me, those useless blocks could be used in more constructive manners, and I find it wasteful that I can't obtain a derivative item from that 'useless block' to fill that niche that I need...
     
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