No, the shaft junctions are also smart enough now to know when you are spamming engines.
How? The engine itself breaks.
Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions
- Thread starter Reika
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I genuinely feel bad for you when you have to break "realism" to deal with abusers. (obviously torque from a hydro wouldn't have a magical property preventing it from being junctioned). In this case the ends seem to justify the means.
that statement rubs me the wrong wayThey need a place to put lubricant in however.
I do not see this being unrealistic. It is not just the hydros that break the junction. Any type of power source spam will do it.
Liar liar pants on fire. You know power spam is realistic, entropy and stress tolerances notwithstanding. Its just incredibly lame and stupid.
Actually. Reverse. I'll buy into your mumbo jumbo since you don't bother replicating power loss through friction. Spam-prevention is now realistic. I declare it to be so.[DOUBLEPOST=1409854270][/DOUBLEPOST]
I'm a bit outta touch but I thought you required bedrock to get jetfuel. Its been a while.
Snarky people might say its a greggy approach.
Good. Its the right approach. All mods should have progression-based tiering.
One nod I will give to GT over RoC on this specific matter (GT loses in a lot of other areas) is that pack makers are currently allowed to tweak the GT recipes, and other mods around GT, to make a whole pack work in the same way. RoC is still a bit unfriendly to pack makers in that regard.
And before Reika loses his shit, this is one specific area. I still prefer RoC and its counterparts with regards to nuclear designs, electrical system, and a ton of other things. It's ok not to be the best at everything.
Snarky people would be dead wrong.
The great hallmark of Greg's mod (note: this MAY have changed but I can't run GT to find out. I won't play it "vanilla", and every time I try to add it to a pack it locks my game up for 15+ minutes; at which point I turn it off 'cause I'm bored waiting) is that it's GRINDY; as all hell. Give me a creative strongbox with... oh right the recipes have too many steps... I was going to give the bare minimum raw resources then I realized the amount of back-crafting I'd need to trace... my other major gripe about GT the sheer number of interim steps. At least when RoC has them, they're pretty obvious what it's going to be used for, and Reika has the advantage of players never having had it the "old" (read: easy) way. Short version? Unless he's since fixed it, give me the raw materials and I can build a fusion reactor in a few hours... it isn't difficult, just "expensive" in raw materials. Honestly with the blueprint for the Tokamak? I could say the same thing about it. Grind me a bazillion magnetite and steel! At least THOSE are common ores though, unlike the rubies required for Greg's.
Where was I going with this? Oh right, progression gating is great. More mods need to do that. Greg just does it mixed with the "raw resource cost" method and that's bad.
RoC is indeed unfriendly to pack makers in that regard, but I will ALWAYS be sympathetic to Reika in this regard. His mods with that restriction are NOT like any other, and he has no obligation to listen to all the fallout that comes from idiots breaking his mod. Which WILL happen. Repeatedly. Then nobody can help, and he gets bitched at even more, and... yeah... If RoC wasn't so tightly progression gated and complex, I'd be trying to persuade Reika to allow exceptions or just abolish the rule. As it currently stands, opening up that can of worms is insane. You just know the first thing that happens is some chucklenut is going to disable RoC steel because "Railcraft makes steel. I don't need this HSLA garbage" and then all his players are going to come into the threads and go "WHY BLAST FURNACE NO WORK? U BAD MODDER. WE GET THAUMCRAFT GUY TO TAKE MOD! HIM DU RIGHT!" or maybe they'll tweak the magnetostatics upgrades to being all the same tier of items, thereby re-enabling the content-bypassing they enabled? I could keep at this all day.
Do I find it annoying? Sure. I'm intelligent and figure that if I'm careful and test things I'm not going to break RoC; I'm also wise enough to know that I easily could, and confident enough in myself to fix those errors when they arise. I also tell my players to bring crashes and issues to ME, not mod makers, not Mojang; me. I also tell them that the wikis could easily be wrong about recipes in my packs, that's what NEI is for (and better at... is it wrong that I want NEI to be base Forge? Actually I want it Vanilla... but that's going to happen never). Still, I think that saying "don't use C4 in my building, you might unknowingly hit the support beams" is a reasonable course of action to take in the same way as Reika's tweaking restrictions.
Also nothing prevents you from tweaking other mods to fit RoC... which is what most pack makers do with GT anyway
Fixed that for you
I'll also note that you're a huge RoC fan and very vocal on his forum. You tend to go out of your way to help others there, and probably take a fair deal of annoyance off Reika's shoulders. I want to be clear that I tip my hat to you in this regard and I strongly appreciate that you've been a factor in helping Reika's mods move forward.
But being such a fan, folks will wanna take your enthusiasm and GT-nay-saying with a bit of salt.
As an on-and-off fan of both mods, I want to clarify a few things:
Boiled down, your statements apply to RoC and GT equally. GT has more machines, and more of these steps, but it's also existed far longer and has had time to flesh out those steps. Instead of just a few resources, such as tungsten, it has hundreds of the damn things, for scores of machines.
And to be clear, no, you could not build a fusion reactor in a "few hours" in GT before, and you definitely cannot now. You need to build all the requisite gating machines, similar to Reika's requirements for tritium, blast glass, etc. I challenge anyone to build a GT tokamak substantially faster than they can build a ReC one. @Iedra has an amazing walkthrough on how he produced all the resources, infrastructure and assembly for his first Tokamak, and it would be an excellent benchmark.
You and I are totally on the same page here. When RoC was still young, before tiered magnostatics and all that, I pushed these gating ideas hard. I may actually deserve some peripheral credit for some of it.
This is in fact the same as Reika's bedrock dust and tungsten mechanics. You need ruby dust to create a machine, which requires a centrifuge. You need blast glass or tungsten to build a machine, which requires pulse jet furnaces and extractors.
You make the misleading implication that RoC is somehow incredibly different in its gating system. Its definitely not so. Many other mods, GT among them, have similar but more fleshed out systems that work on the exact same principle of "earn this machine before you earn that machine", and yet it doesn't have this restriction. This is Reika's choice based purely on his preferences, and not a magical property of the mod itself.
If I make a pack that allows the vanilla furnace to transform dirt into RoC jetfuel, Reika shouldn't give a damn. It has zero impact on him. It has zero impact on the apparent or actual quality of his mod. It only bothers him if he allows it.
GT gets a constant line up of people complaining about its difficulty, but I have never seen anyone say "y yer iron pickaxes require ghats teers on my frenz server, IT MAKES NO SENSE". Likewise, the number of people harassing Reika about pack-specific recipe changes is going to be so small as to be irrelevant.
Misleading metaphor due to implication of harm caused. A more apt one might be "I recommend against using paint sprayers in your clone of my building, you might unknowingly discolor the carpet. And please try not to bother me if you do."
This hints at the prevailing problem here. We're talking about modded minecraft. Its unfortunate when a modder takes a stance that we may adjust our mods around his, but not vice versa. (Yes I'm aware we can tweak his mods privately).
{Edit: Reika, I'm trying to think of a way to re-word this so its not antagonistic. My interest with this phrase is perspective, and not offense.}
I hope I've fully and 100% convinced you around to my way of thinking. Because that's what always happens on the internet right?
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Some more suggestions:
- The microturbine could use a buff. Its placement at 2 MW power is fine, but its fuel usage is too high. First, it has an extremely long spinup time; I haven't actually measured it, but it might be as long, if not longer than the 67 MW gas turbine. In reality it's more the other way around, it's the giant turbines that lag a lot while the small ones are reasonably responsive. During this loooong spinup, it consumes extra fuel, which penalizes it more than necessary. Also, after it has finished spinning up, it continues to consume fuel at a much higher rate per power than the large gas turbine. A quick and amateurish peek at wikipedia pegs simple cycle gas turbines at 35%-40% efficiency, while microturbines are given 25%-30%... at least if you don't go into really miniscule power envelopes. Now if I take the gas turbine's fuel usage and pretend that it simply corresponds to 35% efficiency, then the microturbine comes out at around 13%. It consumes nearly 3 times as much fuel as the gas turbine for the same power, which is really really poor.
Suggestion: halve fuel consumption of microturbine while keeping its power output identical. That would put it to pretend-26% in comparison with the gas turbine's pretend-35%, which seems to be a realistic figure. Also, halve the time it needs to spin up and down.
- The ECU is kind of... well, it really lets you cheese stuff a lot. And I mean a LOT. A bit of background on where both this and the turbine suggestion above are coming from: In my current world I have made a personal rule that I must use Rotarycraft power for everything, and even other mods must run with converted RoC power. I am currently looking into producing about 15-20 MJ/t for some Forestry machines, which comes out to roughly 1 MW of shaft power. A microturbine at 50% would therefore be a perfect fit. But the thing is, I can just use a gas turbine instead, and put it into standby (6.25%) mode. It will produce 4 MW at that setting, four times as much power as I need. But even if I completely waste three quarters of its output, it's still going to use less fuel to run my Forestry machines than the microturbine would. In fact, the x4 bonus from the ECU directly counters that three-quarters wasting, and we're back to where the gas turbine and the microturbine stand unthrottled: the gas turbine will let me power my machines for just a third of the fuel a microturbine would take even if I am only ever using 1 MW. And the gas turbine also gives me room for later expansion into more Buildcraft-related stuff, which may boost its advantage to being as much as 12 times as efficient as the microturbine due to the ECU bonus. This is not only incredibly unrealistic, as turbines in general are very poor at idling; but it also means that even if you buffed the microturbine as I described above, there still would be no reason ever to use one just because the ECU exists and works together so well with the gas turbine.
Suggestion: greatly nerf the fuel efficiency bonus of the ECU, or give it separate profiles for piston engines and turbines.
- The gravel gun seems oddly "magical" for a mod that relies so much on a realistic portrayal of mechanical power. Right now its damage goes up the higher you charge the windspring, yet its power consumption remains static at 1 kJ per shot. That somehow doesn't add up: why am I getting 4 hearts of damage in one case and 400 hearts of damage in another, if both shots take the same amount of energy? If I am imparting 1 kJ energy into a projectile, the resulting impulse should always be the same. If I want to make my projectile fly faster and hit harder, then I need to impart more energy into it.
Suggestion: allow the user to choose how much energy to impart into each shot, and scale the damage off of that, instead of the charge status of the windspring. I should be able to charge my gravel gun to 16 kJ and then use all of that 16 kJ in a single shot - or, instead, fire 16 shots at 1 kJ (or 8 at 2 kJ or whatever). Damage scaling could be something like 0.5 + 0.5 * energyPerShot, with whatever diminishing or increasing returns multiplier you wish. The low base value may be necessary because it is now easier to get a higher powered shot off early in the game, even though the player will be limited to shooting only once or twice. Choosing the power level could be done by using sneak+rightclick to cycle through a number of preset values, or perhaps using sneak+rightclick to open a GUI similar to that of the industrial coil if you want the user to be able to set an arbitrary number. Another variant might be to have a basic and a high-end gravel gun (or a series of upgradable ones), with the former being unable to go beyond a damage value you feel is suitable for early/midgame and the latter being the super endgame oneshot nuker that a highly charged gravel gun currently is.
- The microturbine could use a buff. Its placement at 2 MW power is fine, but its fuel usage is too high. First, it has an extremely long spinup time; I haven't actually measured it, but it might be as long, if not longer than the 67 MW gas turbine. In reality it's more the other way around, it's the giant turbines that lag a lot while the small ones are reasonably responsive. During this loooong spinup, it consumes extra fuel, which penalizes it more than necessary. Also, after it has finished spinning up, it continues to consume fuel at a much higher rate per power than the large gas turbine. A quick and amateurish peek at wikipedia pegs simple cycle gas turbines at 35%-40% efficiency, while microturbines are given 25%-30%... at least if you don't go into really miniscule power envelopes. Now if I take the gas turbine's fuel usage and pretend that it simply corresponds to 35% efficiency, then the microturbine comes out at around 13%. It consumes nearly 3 times as much fuel as the gas turbine for the same power, which is really really poor.
Suggestion: halve fuel consumption of microturbine while keeping its power output identical. That would put it to pretend-26% in comparison with the gas turbine's pretend-35%, which seems to be a realistic figure. Also, halve the time it needs to spin up and down.
- The ECU is kind of... well, it really lets you cheese stuff a lot. And I mean a LOT. A bit of background on where both this and the turbine suggestion above are coming from: In my current world I have made a personal rule that I must use Rotarycraft power for everything, and even other mods must run with converted RoC power. I am currently looking into producing about 15-20 MJ/t for some Forestry machines, which comes out to roughly 1 MW of shaft power. A microturbine at 50% would therefore be a perfect fit. But the thing is, I can just use a gas turbine instead, and put it into standby (6.25%) mode. It will produce 4 MW at that setting, four times as much power as I need. But even if I completely waste three quarters of its output, it's still going to use less fuel to run my Forestry machines than the microturbine would. In fact, the x4 bonus from the ECU directly counters that three-quarters wasting, and we're back to where the gas turbine and the microturbine stand unthrottled: the gas turbine will let me power my machines for just a third of the fuel a microturbine would take even if I am only ever using 1 MW. And the gas turbine also gives me room for later expansion into more Buildcraft-related stuff, which may boost its advantage to being as much as 12 times as efficient as the microturbine due to the ECU bonus. This is not only incredibly unrealistic, as turbines in general are very poor at idling; but it also means that even if you buffed the microturbine as I described above, there still would be no reason ever to use one just because the ECU exists and works together so well with the gas turbine.
Suggestion: greatly nerf the fuel efficiency bonus of the ECU, or give it separate profiles for piston engines and turbines.
- The gravel gun seems oddly "magical" for a mod that relies so much on a realistic portrayal of mechanical power. Right now its damage goes up the higher you charge the windspring, yet its power consumption remains static at 1 kJ per shot. That somehow doesn't add up: why am I getting 4 hearts of damage in one case and 400 hearts of damage in another, if both shots take the same amount of energy? If I am imparting 1 kJ energy into a projectile, the resulting impulse should always be the same. If I want to make my projectile fly faster and hit harder, then I need to impart more energy into it.
Suggestion: allow the user to choose how much energy to impart into each shot, and scale the damage off of that, instead of the charge status of the windspring. I should be able to charge my gravel gun to 16 kJ and then use all of that 16 kJ in a single shot - or, instead, fire 16 shots at 1 kJ (or 8 at 2 kJ or whatever). Damage scaling could be something like 0.5 + 0.5 * energyPerShot, with whatever diminishing or increasing returns multiplier you wish. The low base value may be necessary because it is now easier to get a higher powered shot off early in the game, even though the player will be limited to shooting only once or twice. Choosing the power level could be done by using sneak+rightclick to cycle through a number of preset values, or perhaps using sneak+rightclick to open a GUI similar to that of the industrial coil if you want the user to be able to set an arbitrary number. Another variant might be to have a basic and a high-end gravel gun (or a series of upgradable ones), with the former being unable to go beyond a damage value you feel is suitable for early/midgame and the latter being the super endgame oneshot nuker that a highly charged gravel gun currently is.
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I wouldn't say HUGE fan. I'm definitely a fan, but there are plenty of things Reika does that make me shake my head and wonder who spiked his morning coffee when he had THAT idea.
Besides the helping people with complicated mods thing is literally what I do. Check my REALLY old posts on the MCF. Back in Beta 1. ... ... 4? I think? (Don't really feel like checking) I was doing the same thing for IndustrialCraft. It was my first mod, and will likely always hold a warm fuzzy place in my rose-tinted nostalgia goggles.
Which is actually a downside for me. Excepting Reactorcraft (and probably Chromaticraft) Reika doesn't really add new materials, he merely adds new ways to USE the materials you've already got. Lots of new components to MAKE out of those materials. Something I haven't touched on is that RoC is self-contained. Gregtech was not (might be now but see "it crashes/locks my game"). This is a problem. In a mod that modifies a "Public Utility" mod as... that... um... damn it's late. CovertJaguar! phrased it; Gregtech is a mod I NEVER. EVER. Start with if there's another option. Why would I? All it does is make me grind and grind and grind to get to the point where his stuff is actually good at what it does.
I said with Infinite raw materials. Plop down some Creative Strongboxes and Portable Tanks with Iron, Sticky Resin, Tin, Ruby, and Copper; probably lava and water in the tanks; in the 1.4.7 version of GT and build a fusion reactor. If it takes you much more than 5 hours I'll be shocked. And that's from 0 in the tech tree, and not being familiar with the mod... also probably with some form of autocrafting... because... yeah... a bazillion intermediate bits.
Reikas is significantly faster than that... which is a GOOD thing. It's not complex or time-wasty for its own sake. Which is something I've NEVER been able to say about GregTech. I like RoC, I like TFC, I even like BTW (In concept and observation, though not through direct experience... I haven't played it yet... I really REALLY need to remedy that). Gregtech is the only other "hard" mod I really see mentioned that's "complex" and not "Jadedcat" (Her stuff is difficult because the environment is given even more ways to kill you... basically disadvantaging the player. Not my cup of tea, but hey. Nintendo Hard is still hard). It's also the only one that I consistently dislike, strongly.
I wasn't talking about the... component cost? Basically the direct result of progression gating. You need X machine to get Y product to craft Z. That's fine. In fact I wish more mods did that.
I totally meant something else there. With what I said you are totally correct (note that I don't mind the resource costs in RoC because Reika gives you tools to mitigate that... last time I checked GT he went up to like 3x duplication, with no autominer? Reika uses a TBM that can go to absurdity with enough power... I mentioned self-contained earlier, here's an example where I think GT fails(ed).
It's not different in the gating system. It's not different in the presence of tiers, or the methods of gaining those tiers. It IS unique in the level of... interweaving relations with those tiers? Basically it's a relatively delicate balancing act where removing or shifting nearly any machine or component up or down the tier system can make the mod un-progressable or make it horrifically OP. Show me an example of the same thing from GT. I haven't played it in forever, and when I did, I could use vanilla IC2 to produce whatever I felt like in GT at basically every tech tier he had. From the word "go". Which means until you hit the 5th tier stuff that was all the fusion reactor stuff? GT effectively had no tiers, it just made me grind more to get the stuff I wanted. It had no "jet fuel too expensive" oh wait, I can get t4 Magnetostatics and skip 85% of the mod and get a borer and the extractor going now? (Note I don't have the gating memorized I have gotten so little time to play it's not even funny. But I hope my point comes across. I actually WANT to be converted on this one. I don't like hating Greg or his mod. It's got SO much potential, and so does he.
Now that's being silly. I've been on the content provider and moderator side of things. I know just how much hate mail and crap one person can recieve and when you probably have to tech support 50 people, if you give them bad advice because some chucklenut edited your mods and you said "sure that's fine". YOU CANNOT IGNORE THEM. You absolutely positively cannot "allow" someone to affect you. They will simply by existing and forcing you to sludge through them to get to things you actually need/want to see. The same precise argument can be made about junk/spam mail. What Reika has implemented is effectively a spam filter. If you modify his mods, you don't get anything, and he can dismiss you readily with an actual reason that any sensible person will look at and should agree with. You broke the licensing terms of the mod, he's under precisely 0 obligation to tech support for you in a pack where you can t5 magnetostatic from day 1 and the microturbine runs on water... but he STILL has to deal with you, even if it's only to stick you on "ignore" and souring his mood for all the legitimate concerns and ideas that his users produce.
Sorry to rant at you for this one, but the precise kind of people Reika is trying to avoid having to deal with I used to have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm so firmly on his side on this one because I've BEEN him, I know what the holes in his shoes are, how the wear pattern affects footing. People. Are. Idiots. This is a universal truth, and one that you MUST protect yourself against in some way or go INSANE.
Perhaps, but what if it happens once per 100 packs... or someone makes a tutorial on one of those packs and everyone points at the tutorial and says "WHY THIS NO WORK? The TUTORIAL SAID SO!" Nobody will be able to help them beyond saying "use better tutorial next time", and people will be horribly dissatisfied with his mod. Maybe they switch versions and they can't use RoC in Monster because this guy mucked with the tech tree and the player didn't know it. Heck he has a lesser problem with the OFFICIAL tutorials because of the ever-changing nature of his mods, imagine if people made tutorials on modpacks with modified versions of the mods. I've screwed that up with TC addons before. I've made a few guides that I had to revise multiple times because I wasn't playing vanilla TC as people sent in issues like "there is no Tempus aspect" and I went "derp, that's MagicBees. Fixed!"
Maybe "be careful with that mercury. My floorboards are aluminum, if you spill my floor will become weak and you might hurt yourself... and it'll make it all ugly". It's not a cosmetic problem, you can fairly easily brick Reika's mod with certain changes if you don't understand the ramifications of the products of the block or item.
Heh, always happens doesn't it?This hints at the prevailing problem here. We're talking about modded minecraft. Its unfortunate when a modder takes a stance that we may adjust our mods around his, but not vice versa. (Yes I'm aware we can tweak his mods privately).
{Edit: Reika, I'm trying to think of a way to re-word this so its not antagonistic. My interest with this phrase is perspective, and not offense.}
I hope I've fully and 100% convinced you around to my way of thinking. Because that's what always happens on the internet right?
I can see where you're coming from and a LOT of my problems with GT are opinion about the modder and his history. There are plenty of things that I find distasteful about his mods that I would overlook if I liked Greg. But there are distinct design problems that I think are actually objective. Or at least significantly less subjective. Things that I consider to be VERY bad design. Heck there are things Reika does that I keep wanting to sit him down and lecture him about (packaging API's... grrrrrr). But at least we're keeping it civil... for "very heated" definitions of civil
. What can I say? I'm passionate Tangentially: Immibis' revived/classic version of IC2 is something I'm hoping gets more addon support. I'm not a big fan of the direction Player is taking the mod. Which... is rather Greggy IMO, and not the good bits. I make no secret about my distaste for many of the decisions GregoriousT has made, nor the person himself. Time and time again he's shown himself to be the kind of person that I don't like and make content that looks amazing and sounds amazing but plays with large swaths of "let's have my 6 year old grind me the materials for me so I can actually enjoy the mod". Gregtech has a few new tweaks to the "classic" IC pitfalls like the rain thing and the minimum voltage/rate. But his middle game is grindy (not complex or hard), and his end game is grindy... and I can't comment on the difficulty because the last time I actually booted GT was in... 1.4.7? Every other time it's crashed my game. Also the... not-nice things that happen occasionally with other modders and his reactions to certain "balance" decisions and peoples desire to change them.
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Holy crap @Omicron. That is awesome! I so wish more people with suggestions thought through them as carefully as you obviously did. You stated your problem, why you think it's a problem, the required ideas to demonstrate that, and even logically thought out suggestions. I wish I could like a post more than once!
Here I was all geared up for a debate, and you had to be all mature and reasonable and stuff. OK then, so you wanna play that way....
actually I don't have a lot of good arguments. You never really disputed me so much as pointed out fun things.
This is an area where its "to each his own." For a lot of people, creating systems to acquire resources is fun. This means interesting quarries and processing systems. Reika doesn't seem to mind the latter too much, but he's definitely not super excited about resource-gathering in Minecraft. The borer makes this a better game for him, but its a (minor) drawback for me, in that it makes that segment of the experience too easy. If I need redstone, diamonds and gold, I just drill down to level 15, plonk down a borer, and wait. I never need to move that borer again. I will get infinite resources. If this is your cup of tea, then this is great and fine. The boring machine is the "best" autominer I've ever encountered, hands down, but it only works for me in packs where resource acquisition itself would be a distraction from the main point of the pack.
Ditto the extractor: I almost wish it worked on Iron and nothing else. I actually get annoyed when I see I have 40k nickel and nothing to do with it.
And they're tiers in a strict sense. You can't screw around with them unless you've added exploits to the experience.
Take a look at this thread. Jason Mcray is probably the best pack designer I've seen in years. His GT packs are works of art. If he could get a hold of RoC+submods and minetweak them at will, I might never play anything else again.
Ultimately it comes to personal choice on the part of the modder. Would I like to prevent a few more annoying complaints per week (on this issue), or would I like to encourage mod-ability in the modding community and more flexible design opportunities for my creation? For myself, I love how people take my ideas and run with them. It's one of the most crucial and most wonderful things about the modding community.
Idiots are easy to ignore. Emails are easy to delete. And compared with the alternatives, its a no-brainer for me.
Grindiness: Every frigging tier of GT is grindy. That's why it appeals to those it appeals to. Its not for everyone. But some players really, really dig it.
I hear a lot about how its "grindy" and not "complex" or "hard". The only aspect of RoC that has an increased level of complexity is very simple math required to do torque/speed conversions. That is it. If you come talk to me about gearboxes, tungsten dusts and tritium, I'll have a GT equivalent to respond with three times over. Minecraft is a grind. Each modder decides which area he wants his or her players to grind in.
"Grind" shouldn't have any kind of qualitative connotation assigned to it. For some, grindy equals good. For some its an annoying distraction and a major waste of their time. Ultimately I just want to know if its grindy to determine if it suits my particular play-style on that particular day, not to affix some sort of mystical rating upon the game.
actually I don't have a lot of good arguments. You never really disputed me so much as pointed out fun things.
Its all the little tidbits that make both reactors interesting projects, imo, rather than the end assembly. The people who are building these things aren't interested in the final layout, or really even the power itself (except for bragging rights). These people like designing systems. The GT reactor is way behind Reika's in terms of sophisticated front-end portrayal, but they're both fascinating in terms of infrastructure requirements.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I'm guessing you're high-lighting the extractor and the boring machine.
This is an area where its "to each his own." For a lot of people, creating systems to acquire resources is fun. This means interesting quarries and processing systems. Reika doesn't seem to mind the latter too much, but he's definitely not super excited about resource-gathering in Minecraft. The borer makes this a better game for him, but its a (minor) drawback for me, in that it makes that segment of the experience too easy. If I need redstone, diamonds and gold, I just drill down to level 15, plonk down a borer, and wait. I never need to move that borer again. I will get infinite resources. If this is your cup of tea, then this is great and fine. The boring machine is the "best" autominer I've ever encountered, hands down, but it only works for me in packs where resource acquisition itself would be a distraction from the main point of the pack.
Ditto the extractor: I almost wish it worked on Iron and nothing else. I actually get annoyed when I see I have 40k nickel and nothing to do with it.
If you go check out any version of GT released in the last year, in a pack where loopholes aren't provided, and you'll find that this is the case for far more systems than in RoC. Chrome, Steel, Circuitry, whatever you like: every tier is intricately designed to ensure that you need to learn it in depth before you can progress to the next. This link is old but it gives you a rough idea what I'm talking about. Its RoC on crack.
Lots of tiers
And they're tiers in a strict sense. You can't screw around with them unless you've added exploits to the experience.Take a look at this thread. Jason Mcray is probably the best pack designer I've seen in years. His GT packs are works of art. If he could get a hold of RoC+submods and minetweak them at will, I might never play anything else again.
100% agree with the problem, but not the result. How do you think most modders deal with the issue? Bear in mind we're talking specifically about idiots who complain when their tweaked mod suddenly breaks for reasons to do with the tweaking.
Ultimately it comes to personal choice on the part of the modder. Would I like to prevent a few more annoying complaints per week (on this issue), or would I like to encourage mod-ability in the modding community and more flexible design opportunities for my creation? For myself, I love how people take my ideas and run with them. It's one of the most crucial and most wonderful things about the modding community.
Idiots are easy to ignore. Emails are easy to delete. And compared with the alternatives, its a no-brainer for me.
I still like mine better, since yours promotes the idea that actual damage is done. Even mine was too damaging. If I make a copy of Reika's "building" and ruin the carpets, that's my problem. A mercury spill would be the equivalent of my CPU overheating. I don't think that's the case here. Fortunately the vast majority of modders say "if you break it, don't bother me." (Some magical minority actually say "If you break it, I'll try to help you." Presumably because they have no jobs/school/kids?)
Just to be clear, yes, Greg comes off as a bit of a dink. But some folks swear up and down he's a totally cool and helpful dood and I've never personally chatted with him so I reserve my opinion.
Grindiness: Every frigging tier of GT is grindy. That's why it appeals to those it appeals to. Its not for everyone. But some players really, really dig it.
I hear a lot about how its "grindy" and not "complex" or "hard". The only aspect of RoC that has an increased level of complexity is very simple math required to do torque/speed conversions. That is it. If you come talk to me about gearboxes, tungsten dusts and tritium, I'll have a GT equivalent to respond with three times over. Minecraft is a grind. Each modder decides which area he wants his or her players to grind in.
"Grind" shouldn't have any kind of qualitative connotation assigned to it. For some, grindy equals good. For some its an annoying distraction and a major waste of their time. Ultimately I just want to know if its grindy to determine if it suits my particular play-style on that particular day, not to affix some sort of mystical rating upon the game.
Reading your arguments, and might I say, they are great. I'm not even sure who I agree with
I have a suggestion. Reika, could you perhaps allow tweaking with modpack-style perms and people tell you exactly what they're tweaking? So that way, only people who know what they're doing, like Jason, could tweak it.
And maybe displaying a massive message on world load that recipes have been tweaked?
+1.
Reika gets enough idiots on his board, and if this diverts just 5% it would be worth it.
To be fair Reika has been very responsive about concerns. For example our server was voting on whether to allow flight at all, from any modpack. Reika obliged us by ensuring that the jetpack could be disabled and obey the vanilla allow-flight rule. The vote ended up allowing flight in the end, but it still demonstrates his flexibility.[DOUBLEPOST=1409930200][/DOUBLEPOST]
I disagree. I put updates in the login message of our server, and no one EVER reads them. They also get covered up by the spam from all the mod updaters. mDiyo put in a click through screen during a fight with GregTech, and that was incredibly unpopular.
I think that changes should be properly documented in the pack or server rules and description, and leave it at that.
I disagree. I put updates in the login message of our server, and no one EVER reads them. They also get covered up by the spam from all the mod updaters. mDiyo put in a click through screen during a fight with GregTech, and that was incredibly unpopular.
I think that changes should be properly documented in the pack or server rules and description, and leave it at that.
Easy to agree with both. We're not on opposite sides of the spectrum here so much as sharing interesting perspectives and learning more about stuff we don't know.Reading your arguments, and might I say, they are great. I'm not even sure who I agree with
Good idea. I want to clarify though (so that he doesn't flame me into the ground) that under very strict circumstances, Reika will allow minor tweaks. They cannot interfere with his in-game guide. This covers nearly all changes, but in discussion with him, he agreed that, for instance, one could change the "entry" machine for RoC (the blast furnace) without breaking his rules, if one so desires.
I assume you're disagreeing that the notice would be helpful, not that diverting a small portion of the complainers would be helpful
In that instance, I defer to anyone who has better knowledge on the matter. I, personally, read notices, and I hope I'm part of a greater-than-one-percent-group that would be diverted from bothering Reika as mentioned. If you figure 1% is optimistic, well, I don't run a server
I assume you're disagreeing that the notice would be helpful, not that diverting a small portion of the complainers would be helpful
In that instance, I defer to anyone who has better knowledge on the matter. I, personally, read notices, and I hope I'm part of a greater-than-one-percent-group that would be diverted from bothering Reika as mentioned. If you figure 1% is optimistic, well, I don't run a server
I'm amazed that anyone would make a posting without doing some research (reading documentation, internet and forum searches, etc). Unfortunately I'm destined to stay amazed and surprised because the evidence clearly demonstrates otherwise.
The issue with a popup is that for the few requests you might divert, you've raised an unimportant alert to all the rest of the players. Imagine if ever mod in Monster had a click through screen because the config was in a non-default state... Annoying the whole user base to try and prevent a few complainers from complaining, which they would do even if they go the screen, is a poor design decision.
As to your not running a server, you're still whitelisted on ours should you want to try and survive the hordes while tinkering with reactors. All the latest relevant Reika mods are included!
My wife and I are setting up a base with a dark rusted sci-fi theme, to try and embody a post apocalyptic survival in an overwhelming world of monsters. We already have an incredible fence, moat, and a gateway all made from microblocks, chisel blocks, carpenters blocks, tinker's drawbridges and more. We captured a 9x9 chunk space and are installing turrent, golems, and eventually a Reika force field. It's incredibly hard!
EDIT: Our modpack uses many tech mods, but I had considered at one point calling it Zombies and Rotarycraft.
EDIT2: My first paragraph is solely about those people who spam the MC forums with requests for support that are incomplete, already solved, inane, etc. No offense meant to our noble friend Pyure.
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I will cut the microturbine fuel cost. The spinup time is a function of behavior universal across all engines, and will not be changed.
I will also cut the idle efficiency of the turbine engines, but not of the other engines.
As for the gravel gun, manual control is too involved, so I will just make it scale with charge.